Okay so I don't have a pally but have a question (or two) for you all.
I was tanking steamvaults last night and had a level 69 holy pally doing the healing on me.
The problem I had was that the pally was a bit inconsistent in healing behaviour and was pulling a lot of agro off me. We didnt have a lot of cc (or the cc would break frequently) and so I'd pull beginning to tank the main target and in the two seconds of doing the pull the 2nd target to dps (despite doing a growl and ff on him) would peel off and go straight to the pally.
Normally after the first few seconds I would switch targets onto the 2nd dps and get a few lacerates in, but the threat grab to this pally was so quick.
I have had no troubles with pally healers before - in fact my opinion (other than this one last night) is that pally healers are the greatest - for mana efficiency and survivability.
Why was this pally getting agro so fast? Normally I would have though it was due to heals being too much, but to be honest he was barely healing me. I'd get random 900 heals but not a lot. And he did say he was holy (though I never double checked armory).
Also when he did get agro he died so quickly - 2 or 3 shot, which is very unfortunate if I am feared or stunned/dazed at the time. I checked his clothes, most of it was plate with only 1 or 2 pieces of cloth.
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If the heals werent huge, then all I can honestly say is it was your fault, because every-once-in-a-while 900 heals shouldnt pull aggro off ANY tank, maybe you were switching targets too fast, who knows.
Using blessing of salvation on himself could have probably helped, maybe he accidentally used blessing of salvation on YOU.
Need an armory link to your character, and maybe a link to his character to investigate further.
Using blessing of salvation on himself could have probably helped, maybe he accidentally used blessing of salvation on YOU.
Need an armory link to your character, and maybe a link to his character to investigate further.
It is odd to say the least. Paladin heals grab a quarter threat total. So a heal for 900 would register as 225 threat for a Paladin. Healing threat is also spread out amongst targets, so if you were fighting say 4 targets, each 900 heal would register as 56 threat to the enemies, which should easily be overcomed by your tanking abilities.
I'm guessing the reason he was gaining aggro is because he was using FoL(our most mana-efficient spell) and because he diddn't want your health getting to low(as its heals are only medicore) he used it basically as soon as you got damaged, which for any tank is a little hard to out-aggro.
It could also have been your fault if you dont really know how do tank in bear form(which is unlikely as you said you've not had any trouble with aggro-issues with other healers)
Some tips
1. Use Enrage as often as you can.
2. Swipe is your friend(especially with unusually high Strength or AP)
3. Make sure YOU are the one pulling as if someone else does it will be a little harder to get aggro off of them.
4. Put Thorns on yourself, no one else.
He could have just been extremely stupid as muffinyumyum said and did not put BoSalv on himself, or put it on you. Another reason is be could have left on RF which is an aggro machine.
unless he had RF up, there is no way he took aggro by his fault. if you are talkin about the slave adds, they drop aggro, but also hit like girls.
too little information given for us to extend any advice. as it stands now, we are looking at a L2Tank issue.
too little information given for us to extend any advice. as it stands now, we are looking at a L2Tank issue.
1. Use Enrage as often as you can.
I was
2. Swipe is your friend(especially with unusually high Strength or AP)
Yep I do that too... just have to wait until cc's are up and the swiping group is away from the cc's.
3. Make sure YOU are the one pulling as if someone else does it will be a little harder to get aggro off of them.
Yes I was.
4. Put Thorns on yourself, no one else.
Yes it was only on me.
He had blessing of light (or whatever the healing one is) on me. The only thing i can think of is either:
a) He was healing other dps whilst the cc's were being put into place (hence getting not just healing me threat) or
b) He was lying about being holy
Not quite sure what gear I logged off in, I might be in catform at the moment so an armory link wont be awfully helpful. I was in my light tanking gear, so had about 15k health unbuffed, 33% dodge, 400 defense, and about 20k armor.
For bosses I was in heavy gear, 15k health, 415 defense and 26k armor.
I was
2. Swipe is your friend(especially with unusually high Strength or AP)
Yep I do that too... just have to wait until cc's are up and the swiping group is away from the cc's.
3. Make sure YOU are the one pulling as if someone else does it will be a little harder to get aggro off of them.
Yes I was.
4. Put Thorns on yourself, no one else.
Yes it was only on me.
He had blessing of light (or whatever the healing one is) on me. The only thing i can think of is either:
a) He was healing other dps whilst the cc's were being put into place (hence getting not just healing me threat) or
b) He was lying about being holy
Not quite sure what gear I logged off in, I might be in catform at the moment so an armory link wont be awfully helpful. I was in my light tanking gear, so had about 15k health unbuffed, 33% dodge, 400 defense, and about 20k armor.
For bosses I was in heavy gear, 15k health, 415 defense and 26k armor.
What is RF? I cannot comment on this, but have tanked plenty of instances without any issues.
RF is Righteous Fury. It increases the threat generated by holy spells and effects by 60%.
holy tree has no talent that reduces threat. Paladins have an innate 50% threat reduction in comparison to other healers (threat = 25% healed for a paladin)
Righteous Fury: Increases the threat generated by your Holy spells by 60%. Paladin heals belong to holy school, does RF affect it? But even so, it should only bring it up to par to a normal healer.
Edited, Nov 25th 2007 8:42pm by ShinnAsuka
Righteous Fury: Increases the threat generated by your Holy spells by 60%. Paladin heals belong to holy school, does RF affect it? But even so, it should only bring it up to par to a normal healer.
Edited, Nov 25th 2007 8:42pm by ShinnAsuka
i've been holy on my main pally for 2 years now. i leveled 10-70 holy. in all those levels i have drawn aggro off tanks a few times. 90% of those times it was on a bad pull where i had to pull out holy light and got several crits in a row. the other 10% were due to either the tank not estabishing adequate threat or a hunter pulling a mob to freeze it and it resisting and the hunter FD's to drop aggro. i will take the blame for a very few where i didn't realize soon enough that the group was fighting and had to cast a few emergency holy lights.
if you were pulling most likely it was either bad pulls or not enough threat generated. you say they were fairly small heals, so that tells me probably not bad pulls... him pulling aggro would have been the least of your worries. i honestly don't know druids well and won't pretend to know all your abilities. but i highly recommend any aoe growls or anything to get aoe threat. you don't really even need super high threat levels on everything, just enough to overcome 1/4 of the amount of the heals.
from what you described its not likely him casting emergency holy lights or the hunter issue i mentioned. hunters traps don't get resisted that often.
check to make sure you're not forcing him to HL due to bad pulls. and also make sure you're using whatever aoe abilities you do have. and of course be sure your dpsers aren't breaking CC right next to your healer and dropping aggro.
if you were pulling most likely it was either bad pulls or not enough threat generated. you say they were fairly small heals, so that tells me probably not bad pulls... him pulling aggro would have been the least of your worries. i honestly don't know druids well and won't pretend to know all your abilities. but i highly recommend any aoe growls or anything to get aoe threat. you don't really even need super high threat levels on everything, just enough to overcome 1/4 of the amount of the heals.
from what you described its not likely him casting emergency holy lights or the hunter issue i mentioned. hunters traps don't get resisted that often.
check to make sure you're not forcing him to HL due to bad pulls. and also make sure you're using whatever aoe abilities you do have. and of course be sure your dpsers aren't breaking CC right next to your healer and dropping aggro.
Holy Pally heals generate 1/4 threat for the amount healed. So if he heals you for 1000, it would be like hitting the mob for 250 damage. The problem being if a mob is not CC'd but is hitting you and he heals you he generates threat on it as surely as a DPS hitting the mob you aren't focused on.
Their are two solutions to the problem. 1)You either rotate through the mobs faster and use AOE moves if you have them to generate a base aggro that the paladin won't pull off you when he goes to heals or 2) you get more CC.
I used to have the same problem when I was a pug healer and we didn't bring enough CC along. Tank has two mobs focusing on him, is taking damage and needs a heal but he is only generating threat on one, I can either heal and grab aggro or not and let tank die. Not a fun position to be in.
Edited, Nov 25th 2007 11:48pm by bodhisattva
Their are two solutions to the problem. 1)You either rotate through the mobs faster and use AOE moves if you have them to generate a base aggro that the paladin won't pull off you when he goes to heals or 2) you get more CC.
I used to have the same problem when I was a pug healer and we didn't bring enough CC along. Tank has two mobs focusing on him, is taking damage and needs a heal but he is only generating threat on one, I can either heal and grab aggro or not and let tank die. Not a fun position to be in.
Edited, Nov 25th 2007 11:48pm by bodhisattva
Bode - 100 Holy Paladin - Lightbringer
but anyways, this is a matter for the drood tanking boards. SV has many, many casters. LoS and range pulls are godly here. as a druid you need to CC as many casters as you can since you wont have too many aoe moves and casters dont often like to punch your thorns. part of being a tank is the ability to adapt to the situation on the fly and catch hostiles before they catch your party.
with your druid pre-HoT, you shouldn't need a heal before you've established full aggro and positioned the mobs. if the healer is casting pre-pull, then tell him to stop. a pally can easily bring you from 50% to 100%. but if a pally needs to wait that long to begin a cast, then your threat rotation needs to be looked at. if the healer does pull a mob, you were blessed with Intercept and/or the pally was blessed with Divine Shield/BoP. also, growl is not enough to hold aggro, only enough to establish aggro...its needs something to complement it like an auto-attack. if thorns aren't prickin, you gotta tag all the mobs old school style.
with your druid pre-HoT, you shouldn't need a heal before you've established full aggro and positioned the mobs. if the healer is casting pre-pull, then tell him to stop. a pally can easily bring you from 50% to 100%. but if a pally needs to wait that long to begin a cast, then your threat rotation needs to be looked at. if the healer does pull a mob, you were blessed with Intercept and/or the pally was blessed with Divine Shield/BoP. also, growl is not enough to hold aggro, only enough to establish aggro...its needs something to complement it like an auto-attack. if thorns aren't prickin, you gotta tag all the mobs old school style.
Quote:
unless he had RF up, there is no way he took aggro by his fault. if you are talkin about the slave adds, they drop aggro, but also hit like girls.
too little information given for us to extend any advice. as it stands now, we are looking at a L2Tank issue.
too little information given for us to extend any advice. as it stands now, we are looking at a L2Tank issue.
even if he had rf up it wouldnt be that much agro. lets take 1000 hp heals
1000*.25= 250 healing threat 250*.6(rf boost)=150 bonus from the threat you got for healing so 150+250= 400 threat from 1000 heal. true it's more than normal but other classes are only 50% less so they would have done 500 threat. unless i'm missing something if so someone please correct me.
punkspider wrote:
Quote:
unless he had RF up, there is no way he took aggro by his fault. if you are talkin about the slave adds, they drop aggro, but also hit like girls.
too little information given for us to extend any advice. as it stands now, we are looking at a L2Tank issue.
too little information given for us to extend any advice. as it stands now, we are looking at a L2Tank issue.
even if he had rf up it wouldnt be that much agro. lets take 1000 hp heals
1000*.25= 250 healing threat 250*.6(rf boost)=150 bonus from the threat you got for healing so 150+250= 400 threat from 1000 heal. true it's more than normal but other classes are only 50% less so they would have done 500 threat. unless i'm missing something if so someone please correct me.
nope, your math is correct. a pally even with rf up is generating less threat than other healers.
hey, punkspider, it says you're posting from Lejeune. you in the USMC?
did my 4 years i'm in ny now with wife son and daughter on the way. i'm just lazy and yet to update it lol.
punkspider wrote:
did my 4 years i'm in ny now with wife son and daughter on the way. i'm just lazy and yet to update it lol.
awesome. got one more year myself and i'll be done.
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