when is flame shock worth it?Follow

at what point (spell damage needed) for non crits, hell, and even for crits, will flame shock do more damage from the DoT than earth shock and frost shock?
i ask in here because my math is terrible :P
This is for elemental spec, so we are figuring 100% crit and +5% shock damage, this is what i can give for info

Flame shock: 395 to 396 and 440 to 444 dot
Earth Shock: 690 to 727
Frost Shock: 672 to 710
Instant cast coeficient from shocks: 42.86% of spell damage
Damage coeficiant for flame shock dot: 80% of spell damage

I know that certain shocks are for certain situations, by question is merely for damage purposes. (to see if it is even possible to have flame shock be the winner in damage, i know after a point it can be, but if the number is even fathomable is what im going for)
id try to figure it out myself, but my math is awful, so i leave it to the gurus :)

I also know the numbers might be off, this is from trainer tooltips since i am not 70 yet, and spells do slightly more damage as we level so if my numbers are off please fill me in :)

Edited, Nov 25th 2007 4:57am by Dimion

Assuming Elemental Fury, and the rest of the stats don't matter in the slightest (5% shock damage will effect all aspects of the Shock, for example);

Flame Shock: 377 + .15 * DMG (DD) + 420 + .52 * DMG (DoT)
Earth Shock: 675 + .4286 * DMG (DD)

On a crit, DD is 2x.

Flame Shock: 754 + .3 * DMG (DD) + 420 + .52 * DMG (DoT)
Earth Shock: 1350 + .4286 * DMG (DD)

754 + .3x + 420 + .52x = 1350 + .4286x
1174 + .82x = 1350 + .4286x
.3914x = 176
x = 449.7

So, at a bit under 450 +DMG Flame Shock will do more damage than Earth Shock even if you crit the attack. If you don't crit the attack, the breakpoint is even lower (or possibly negative - as in ES will never outdamage FS on a non-crit no matter how much +DMG, which makes sense).

Short version; use Flame Shock every time the DoT has expired, because it's more damage than ES is.

Well, yes. Flame Shocking a mob at 10% is a bit of a waste.



Ehh...

The question was for Elemental, but for Enhancement... let me see. Enhancement Shaman aren't exactly going wild with the spell crit. Even with the 20% boost...


Flame Shock: 377 + .15 * DMG (DD) + 420 + .52 * DMG (DoT)
Earth Shock: 675 + .4286 * DMG (DD)

377 + .15x + 420 + .52x = (675 + .4286x) * 1.2
797 + .67x = 810 + .514x
.156x = 13
x = 83

In other words, with a whopping 83 +DMG Flame Shock outdamages Stormstrike'd Earth Shock (non-crit). I'm too lazy to do the math again, but the same is likely to be true even with a crit... the numbers will be slightly higher, of course, but you don't get the increase to 100% +DMG so it won't be too far off.

Flame Shock ftw.

Everyone pretty much told the nitty gritty already regarding the "math" of FlS, so I won't beat the dead horse.

In practice (pre-2.3, course I'm sure this application would just be "better" in 2.3) as a Enh, I tended to opening a fight (I'm talking partys and raids, not soloing generally) with FlS first, for a few reasons. Firstly, to help "control" hate spikes from melee crits/WF's I usually had to start a encounter a few seconds behind all the other dps, which typically is our only "hate management" value enh has for the most part. FlS allowed me to "get on the board" for dps, without the fear of spiking it, giving me more "free" dmg even though I haven't completely committed to full melee yet, not to mention saving my burst dmg combo (SS+ES) for when I felt that hate was established on the MT. Plus, FlS helped keep steady DoT dmg on top of melee dmg, edging overall dps up just a tad. Problem was pre-2.3 that using shocks liberally ment I ran outta MP very fast, so FlS tended to be ONLY a opener, course thanks to SF we can spam shocks freely now.

I do remember when I was a Resto, FlS was bascially the MAIN source of "dmg" when I was soloing, especially if I was taking down a elite(70+). Since a typical "pull" only allowed for about 2 LB's before the mob was in your face, shocks we're key since they we're uninteruptable, compared to LB's or CL. Between slower cast times when casting HW or LB's, the time is better spent "healing" rather than trying to squeeze off a LB/CL, when taking hits for slower casting. So with FlS up (and Searing tot), it allowed me to keep some dps, while I was squeezing out heals.

As a Elem, I tended not to rely on FlS for dmg (while soloing mostly), since I built much of my setup around crits and LB's. So frankly, for the sake of keeping things time efficiant, I usually killed something with LB's before the the duration of FlS's DoT would have been up anyhow, so FlS would have been a moot point. Granted in longer fights (raids) I tended not to use FlS, just simply because I forgot too, and my mental MO was more focused on spamming LB's. I'm sure it would have done its job well, if not better than it did when I was a full resto, I just tended to mash my LB macro faster than my shocks :P

Huh... That's... odd. Oh well. I would say I'd try playing around with my shocks, but I just respecced Elemental, so it's largely a moot point.

i rarely use flame shock simly because even though it does more damage, earth shock is more burst damage. I use FS on bosses in raids and thats about it.

ES = burst
FS = DoT

Use FS on bosses
Use ES any other time

If you stay within 20 yards of the boss. But generally, you want to stay back as far away, so the 36-yard Lightning Bolt is safe to spam.

Shouldn't seem odd. Earth Shock is all instant damage and includes an Interrupt effect, so it'd be weird if a DOT spell didn't have a few advantages over it.

Also Dagis you're correct that another advantage to Flame Shock is mana efficiency.

The only thing I can see in here that no one has mentioned.

The duration it takes one Flame Shock to run it's course.While with the time on earth shock being instant and just waiting on the cooldown. You can throw in 2 earth shocks (6 Second Cooldown) in the duration of one flame shock. (6 on cooldown 12 for full damage duration)

With Shamanistic Focus (60% Cost reduction on next shock after dealing a melee crit) and Mental Quickness (6% Shock cost reduction and 30% of Attack power is added to healing and spell damage), it's not really a kill on mana seeing as how you crit ALOT at 60+.

After you get Shaman Rage (Level 50) and water sheild (Level 62) mana isn't really that much of a issue even when grinding. I'm not argueing the math on 1 earth vs 1 flame shock. However when you can throw 2 earths in the duration of 1 Flame Shock wouldn't it be a bit more useful to use earth. This is pretty much for Enhance only as it would be less useful for elemental or resto mana wise. Still its something to consider for those who aren't having mana issues and have time to work it into the casting rotation.

That would pretty much be the best outcome. Would also make for a very lovely rotation. Open with flameshock then earth as soon as its up to use.


I guess to answer the OP's question.



Flame > Earth 1 on 1 for mana cost and damage. (Thank you for the math RPZip)

Flame then Earth = Best for damage as a rotation putting mana cost aside.

This depends on if you can easily fit in the 2 Spells as a rotation in addition to your normal DPS spells. For Enhance its cake as we will be using Stormstrike and Shocks as our main DPS moves, the rest is windfury and melee attacks.





Edited, Dec 5th 2007 3:17pm by ElDiablos

no sense in rotating your attacks as an ele shaman and especially as an enh shaman, the shocks share the cd, unless ofc, ur ele and flame shock is still ticking. and enh shamans should use es.

Edited, Dec 7th 2007 6:12am by cookiesftw

Did you miss my whole question of asking as an Elemental Shaman? I was asking about LB/CL vs. FS, not ES vs. FS.


Elemental Shaman have to what? There is no "working in" of LB and CL. Elemental is LB and CL and shocks may or may not be necessary for DPS at all, which is what I was asking.

Make sure you know what you're talking about before you give advice next time, smart ***. I realize it's very easy to look at RP's math and then act like a know-it-all to everyone else based on his work, but you're not fooling anyone.