Elitist Not-WarlocksFollow

It seems like this discussion has gotten more complicated than it needs to be. I can't speak for everyone else, but in the groups I run with that function the best, this is how it works:

1) Person marking takes stock of what CC is available to them for trash pulls, and based on the class, the list is:

Hunter: Freeze Trap
Mage: Polymorph
Warlock: Seduce
Rogue: Sap
Priest: Mind Control

That is all. Notice there is no, "Hunter: Pet OT" or "Warlock: Minion OT" on that list. What worked in Azeroth does not work nearly as well in Outland when it comes to pet/minion OT. The HP of pets/minions don't scale. The armor might be good, but as a prime example, my Boar pet (wicked, wicked tanking pet in Azeroth and non-elite solo in Outland) goes down in a heartbeat in any Outland dungeon where he's found himself having gained the attention of an elite mob.

2) Mobs are marked, marks are clarified for the party along with kill order.

3) Pull is done.

4) Mobs are CC'd, dps classes then shift their attention to the tank/dps mob.

5) Kill that mob. Tank engages next mob in kill order.

6) Repeat 5, refreshing CC as necessary.

7) Win.

As a Hunter, sometimes my traps get resisted. Sometimes a sloppy tank/other cc class pulls their mob through my trap before my mob gets into it. Sometimes someone mistargets/AoEs and breaks my trap. On those case, my dps frequently stops until that mob is back in another trap, whether it's firing at that mob a couple of times to keep the healer from getting aggro or kiting the mob around if I need some time before I can set another trap. If I'm shooting at the mob for any reason, it's not my common dps shot rotation...it's intended to be just enough to keep the mob focused where I want it focused until I can get it retrapped. What that means is that no matter how you slice it, I'm doing considerably less dps on the damage meter than is possible based on my class/gear/spec.

Where people run into trouble is when they don't want to CC at all because it's too complicated/makes them too nervous/they just want to pewpew. It makes it worse when they don't want to use the best option available to them because a less effective option is easier for them to execute.

I'm sorry, but a Warlock in any 5-man group had damn well better learn how to use their Succubus, because their friggin' voidy/felguard is not going to cut it in a heroic. Period. No discussion possible on the matter. You can have a pet/minion with 16k armor and it's still going to flop down like a sack of **** in a heroic when the mob chews through that armor and the piddly HP behind it in 3-4 hits tops. Health Funnel is not going to keep up. And so it begs the question: if you can't use your succubus effectively in non-heroic level 70 5-man content, wtf use are you to me in a Heroic? I already run with a dps Warrior taking up one CC spot, and the only reason those groups stay managable is because I can double trap (not atm, but with 2.3.2 I'll be able to again).

You have options to CC. They're tricky, yes. In any group I run with, a Seduced mob is the first on the kill order after the skull, but if you can't manage that first seduce and refresh if needed, you're of absolutely no use to me.

However I hate it, I couldnt agree more. I only wish every group I ran with so far put seduce on second kill... but when someone tells me "I know you can manage and *insert whatever class here* cant", well flattering works with girls :p

I am not demo anymore for simple reason I got tired with fighting and explaining to people how (in)capable felguard actually is. Though its harder to farm right now I sort of feel more in peace.

A bit OT, but since you are already involved in discussion, do you mind question?
Like I said my hunter dinged 70 not so long ago and I really like cookie cutter BM build. So when I get into trouble after 3rd trap I usually sic my pet with manual growl for those few seconds needed to get CD back up or tank to notice and intervene or something.
I dont usually loose my pet because its very short and if I do I still gained those few seconds I needed.
Am I doing something wrong there? I admit I am the world worst kiter when it comes to that, I simply cant get the basics of kitting >.<

Like I said, I dont run any heroics because I feel they dont give much space for mistakes and its more than my nerves can handle atm. But maybe some day I dare.
So will kitting be that mandatory for them?

I wouldn't say mandatory so much as inevitable, especially if you have no trap cooldown/duration bonuses from talents/gear. If you time the pulls properly (ie. one trap down and the next one off cooldown before the pull) you should be ok. Key is managing your position relative to your trapped mob. If you know that your trap likely isn't going to last long enough to do the job, make sure that you have enough range on your trapped mob that you can slow it with a Concussive Shot and force it to run a good distance after you while slowed to buy more time.

Kiting in Heroics can be an extremely risky proposition. I've been 2-shotted by some cranky Naga in Heroic Slave pens when the mage in the group kept breaking my traps with Frost Nova and all I had left was Wing Clip. I'm a big fan of the Wing Clip joust...lining up your target and then running straight through them, Wing Clipping as you pass. The trouble is, any time you're using Wing Clip, you're also getting hit, and on more than one occasion I've taken a couple of enormous crits (4-5k+ damage) and that was it. Deterrence from the SV tree helps a ton, but not all Hunters have access to it and even then, if it's a fast attacking mob, you dodge/parrty 3 out of 5 attacks and the 2 attacks that hit are crits, you're still dead.

The thing to remember is that stuff is always going to go sideways. Even the best prepared, best geared, most experienced groups are going to have "oh crap!" moments in a Heroic dungeon. All you have to do is know before hand what your options are to handle different situations, and if all of those options are on cooldown when you die, you've probably done all you could have been asked to do.

Which creates a delightful segue to steer this back on topic:

Succubus might be a paper doll with revoltingly sensual features, but it's the best CC option Warlocks have when Banish can't be used. It might be easy for people to fall into the trap of thinking, "Well, my Voidy/FG does OK OTing in non-heroics sometimes, so I'll keep using that and then switch to Succubus for Heroics when OT tactics are simply not an option." The trouble is, every Warlock I've talked to has said CC with a Succubus takes practice to do consistantly and well. You don't want to be waiting for a Heroic dungeon to start practicing, because Heroics are all about, "OK, you know your class, you've thoroughly practiced all of the fundamentals, now it's time to refine your skills by dramatically reducing the acceptable margin for error."

The only time I've ever PUG'd a Heroic was when I recognized the members putting it together as being from one of the top (now dissolved) raiding guilds on my realm at the time. It turned into a ********* of drama. If your only option to run Heroics is with a PUG, you're in for a rough ride anyways.

Do the best you can, work with your groupmates, and learn from your mistakes. Everything else falls into place after that.

That's not CC. That's off tanking, which is a whole 'nother animal. Yes, OTing can keep someone off the player's toons, but it won't prevent casting, It won't prevent any AoE the thing being OTd might have. It really doesn't take the mob out of combat, just transfers it to your pet. Sorry, but anyone who thinks that a VW or FG is a CC tool just doesn't understand roles in instances, much less raids.

Must admit, there have been plenty of times when I've kept FG on passive and only sent him in when the healer got aggro. From that perspective it CAN be viewed as CC, though only in a limited sense.

Perhaps better to view it as insurance.

This will work in lower end OL instances, and very well. But in my experience (limited though it may be) unless you get a mage/rogue x 2 in your group, Succy is absolutley necessary once you're past Slabs (or up to SH).

No group can live without it. No warlock should NOT know how to use her. And I don't. I freely admit that. But I'll learn.

I use this macro in combination with dotimer in instances where succy is asked to join in

#show Seduction
/clearfocus [modifier:alt]
/focus [target=focus,noexists]; [target=focus,dead]
/clearfocus [target=focus,help]
/petstay
/petfollow
/stopcasting
/cast [pet:succubus,target=focus,exists,harm] Seduction; Seduction

You dont have to switch targets in fight just hit the macro and succy will reseduce her target regardles of witch target you have.
This way I can still do decent dps and seduce at the same time, use alt key to change succy targets if needed.
Hope this helps locks that are afraid to use succy she can be your best friend somtimes.

That is one BOLD statement coming from someone whose toon is barely even Kara ready. You let me know when my seduce macro will help in a raid, ok? The truth of the problem with the succubus is that her abilities scale in pretty much a 0-sum fashion. While her usefulness is technically increased because she prevents more damage on heroic mode, etc, her survivability quickly falls to almost nil, meaning she provides less of a reprieve than just sending in VW or Big Fella. I can say that she is absolutely NOT needed in heroic. That she will make your life easier, but any heroic can be completed without her, even before Karazhan. You don't need some 1337 tank or healer or DPS.

If you want proof, how about the fact that until 2.1 you couldn't seduce 95% of mobs in a heroic. Anyone that tried heroic SH, SV, SL, etc, before that patch found out real fast that lock was relegated to pure DPS during pulls of 4+ mobs and could still get through. Just because they nerfed it for you guys (trust me, SH especially was INSANE) doesn't mean that suddenly those of us who had to deal with that forgot how to play our toons. It means we fell out of love with our little goat hoofed mistress because she spent so long being totally freaking useless.

I did not say that a Warlock is not a DPS class. It is. What I did say is that off-tanking is not Crowd control. I rely on you and others with more experience for guidance in going into instances and raids, but my lack of experience has nothing to do with my statements. I completely agree that a succubus is not a DPS tool unless you sac her to Demonic Sacrifice.

Short answer? Yes. CC means generally less stress on healer and others and you know what to expect.

Longer answer: If you have a felguard out then my main (tank) is fine with that - you both hit hard and Felly charges and helps you and generally healer if things go bad. (this is generally speaking and I actually usually defer to the healer on these things - I'm whipped what can I say they keep me alive they get what they want). In oter words I've seen a Felguard work, and work fine. VW's almost never work.

I've learned** that when a lock comes into an instance with a VW out it's pointless, it's not going to work and I've gotten to the point that a lock refusing to change to imp/succy/felhunter (as the case warrants) becomes a "Lock goes or tank goes" situation. Like has been said here - if the lock gives a reasoned argument for it then fine but I've never seen it happen. Here's what I see happens (yes these are real):

1) lock: "We need CC"
Me: We have a hunter and a mage and VW isn't CC do what you want but don't OT"
<marks stuff trap/sheep 1st/2nd kill and then free for all>
VW decides to tank random target on their own, healer tries to heal VW AND me and loses. I go down, VW goes down, healer goes down, lock with SS on himself (more often than not with locks that use VW tanks - sorry not saying always just my experience) lounges about and waits for us to get back and bides time resummoning VW.

2) lock: "Well I need it because you can't keep up with my aggro so I need it to protect me!"
Me: Have you heard of Omen or KTM?"
Lock: "What?"
Me: "NM, it's all good" (pally tank who usually only has trouble with Critkin)
Lock proceeds to prove the point by nuking an off target like a madman, drawing aggro, VW dies, lock dies, healer dies, the rest die.
lock: See you can't hold aggro!!!!eleventyone!!11 You tanks suck that's why I need my VW, you can't handle me!

3) Similar to #2 except lock decides to fear (no not DC, fear) and drwas adds from EVERYWHERE. Uses this as a reason for the VW. Once had one also say (in BRD) "But fear is part of who I am as a lock, if you don't want me to be who I am then I don't want to be here!" /kick


I'm not saying anything about the locks on this forum or even about locks in general and we all know that idiots are idiots. But I have never once seen a lock with a VW out give me a legitimate reason for it beforehand nor party with it effectively during.

Fool me once, shame on you, fool me 6 times with 6 different locks w/ VWs and not pay my repair bill? ***** your fellows. I'm sorry, I've just never seen it effective, at anything.

Again, Felguard, ok up to the healer, VW? No. Just no.


** This isn't saying it's not possible just in the several times I've seen it it's bad freaking news. I tried to let it roll and go with how they want to play, I've never seen it work.

I never saw VW working in instance either.
I admit I didnt pull mine since level 64 so I didnt have chance to compare stats and now I dont have felguard anymore, but whatever it is felguard does work and VW doesnt.
Or should I say it works when someone is capable of micromanagement.

I saw too many level 50 locks running around with felguard on loose, I saw level 70 ones that had to be told to take the cleave and anguish off, I saw those that were incapable of offtanking with him and just kept him around for looks (I suppose because their damage wasnt worth mentioning either).
I got sick. I respecced.

I have legitimate right to pull succy/imp when people want them now, or ask if they prefer more dps and simply sac her. I can pull VW and kill it with gusto now too. I used to love that pet at low levels but after I saw what kind of locks usually use it at 70 I got totally disgusted with it.

I prefer to leave my tank or the group leader a choice of choosing my pet, I give them insight in what they can expect from it (CC versus saccing versus hp buff) and if things go wrong I am not the one to be blamed :p
I hate succy but I seduce when they want and I seduce good.

I was fighting for "felguard rights" very long but every lock that drools over felguard at level 49 and then has no single clue how to control it and no wish to learn actually spitted on me and my knowledge. I gave up.
I can eventually get involved in some interesting forum convo and thats all, my game time is too valuable to deal with some people.

And to all locks out there that think they can OT with VW and do less dps than a tank due to their "CC" - reroll please. Not on my server if possible.

And yes, I can seduce and keep the second dps place on damage meter at least. I dont settle for less.

Edited, Dec 6th 2007 8:16am by Sethy

I think that this thread is concentrating on Seduce way too much. Warlocks have 3 CC options, and Seduce is only one of them. There is also Banish and Enslave Demon. Yes, both of these are situational - Banish needs Demons or Elementals as the target, and Enslave not only requires a demon, but also gets rid of your current pet.

LOL, I am sorry, but are we even talking about the same class?
First off, are your refering to instances in general, or are you refering to Outland, or Heroics?
Second, what about the warlocks that are speced for Affliction or Destruction? Are you saying, since they do not even have a felguard, that they are IDIOTS because they choose a minion that works well for them?? Or, are only Demonology warlocks idiots, if they do not get the same use out of their other minions as you do?

I use voidwalker in instances all the damn time. One would usually see me with that, or felguard when needed. I have never had any consistent problem with that. And, usually, no one else does either-- so you really can not just other players. If fact, I have been asked not to use felguard many times, because my group wanted a minion that was made to take more hits than to deal them.
As far as healing goes, how many of you have ever played a healer? The job has nothing to do with what a hunter/warlock is using, but how well the group works together with what they have. Just watch their mana burn fast, when all the damage is focussed on one or two characters, and you will see what I mean. Further, healing the pet/minion should be last on the list of priorities; there are cases where it is needed, but not generally.