So in mookin we get to use whatever weapon we happen to be using in normal caster form. Moonkins also get a chance on hit to gain back mana... so for soloing and possably dungeons does it make more sense to try and get a fast attack speed weapon, say a dagger or one handed mace, instead of the more usual staff. The stats are usually lower but you do get an off handed as well.
I was wondering is when you are in dungeons and the like is having a dagger and running in and hitting the mobs whilst nuking gonna get you killed? Or do you play more mage and stand and the back throwing wrath at the mobs?
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First of all, the mana regen is based on your Attack Power, so a better choice is a weapon with high FAP (Feral Attack Power) on it, such as an Earthwarden.
Secondly... If you run up and whack stuff in the back of the head while nuking it, you WILL probably pull aggro, yes, since, according to my information, it takes less threat to pull aggro in melee range than it does at longer range. However, the question of it getting you killed... Well, that depends on a few things:
1. Is the mob a boss? If the answer is yes, then yes, you'll probably eat it.
2. Is the dungeon a heroic/raid? If the answer is yes, then yes, you'll probably get owned.
3. Does your gear/tank suck? If the answer is yes, then yes, you'll probably be faceplanting when it's over.
Secondly... If you run up and whack stuff in the back of the head while nuking it, you WILL probably pull aggro, yes, since, according to my information, it takes less threat to pull aggro in melee range than it does at longer range. However, the question of it getting you killed... Well, that depends on a few things:
1. Is the mob a boss? If the answer is yes, then yes, you'll probably eat it.
2. Is the dungeon a heroic/raid? If the answer is yes, then yes, you'll probably get owned.
3. Does your gear/tank suck? If the answer is yes, then yes, you'll probably be faceplanting when it's over.
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I was wondering is when you are in dungeons and the like is having a dagger and running in and hitting the mobs whilst nuking gonna get you killed?
Borkin wrote:
If you run up and whack stuff in the back of the head while nuking it, you WILL probably pull aggro, yes, since, according to my information, it takes less threat to pull aggro in melee range than it does at longer range.
Good knowledge, Bork. It took a quick check of wowwiki's aggro page to believe you, but:
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The following conditions will cause a mob to attack a character if it is already attacking someone else:
- Exceeding the threat level of the mob's current target by 10% within melee range of the mob
- Exceeding the threat level of the mob's current target by 30% outside melee range of the mob
- Other stuff not quoted here by JeeBar: )
- Exceeding the threat level of the mob's current target by 10% within melee range of the mob
- Exceeding the threat level of the mob's current target by 30% outside melee range of the mob
- Other stuff not quoted here by JeeBar: )
I always thought damage-based (i.e. not from healing) threat was just based on...well, amount of damage, modified by the form/stance modifiers like 1.3 in bear, .7 in cat, etc. Ya learn something every day. : )
So while in moonkin form/gear your melee attack power will be pisspoor and the minimal damage of the hits themselves would never pull the mob off your tank, being in the melee mix would effectively reduce the amount of casting dps you could lay down by 20%.
5 posts
If your spells didnt pull threat off the tank then your combat swings wont have a prayer of doing it. if you must do some combat gen'ing then go for high attack power and speed. More swings means more chance for proc and more AP means more return on procs. Even with just my normal caster stick I usually got enough in a swing or 2 for a wrath or something cheap, Moonkin already gives you a boost to AP. Feral AP weapons are not rare, im sure theres more than one thats an easy quest reward so dont spend too much effort on it. You could also throw a talent point into Omen of Clarity if this is a common thing to happen.
The problem is your going OOM, which is the main downfall of our class, and you should look to your mana regen to fix it, not your combat abilities. The close combat regen is cool and usefull but you shouldnt really get to that point if you layout your gear right, innervate, and use your pots before your low on mana. And dont use wrath if mana is a concern:) If i do go OOM for some reason I ussually put on my AP weapon and go claws on them, rather than hope for a proc.
The problem is your going OOM, which is the main downfall of our class, and you should look to your mana regen to fix it, not your combat abilities. The close combat regen is cool and usefull but you shouldnt really get to that point if you layout your gear right, innervate, and use your pots before your low on mana. And dont use wrath if mana is a concern:) If i do go OOM for some reason I ussually put on my AP weapon and go claws on them, rather than hope for a proc.
Scholar
40 posts
Ok well that whole thing about agro Damage needed at range is completly new to me, and does change my view a lot. ATM by balance druid is only 25, I do have a resto one at 70, but i was looking foward as I know how much fun they are.
Omen of clearcasting is definatly on the cards, want to get intensity as well (30%! Go the patch) so hopefully that will help manage my mana.
So if you do go OOM in dungeons is the best thing to do jump into cat and start hitting? Perhaps having a FAP staff (dam not being able to change armour in combat!) in standbye?
Omen of clearcasting is definatly on the cards, want to get intensity as well (30%! Go the patch) so hopefully that will help manage my mana.
So if you do go OOM in dungeons is the best thing to do jump into cat and start hitting? Perhaps having a FAP staff (dam not being able to change armour in combat!) in standbye?
djellum wrote:
If your spells didnt pull threat off the tank then your combat swings wont have a prayer of doing it.
That was my initial thinking too, but you're missing this key point about aggro in melee range. It's not the actual whacks with the wep that put you at risk of peeling the mob off your tank, it's the fact that when you're within melee range the wicked DPS of your spells will get the mob on you at just 110% of the tanks threat, whereas from the cheap seats you can lay down up to 130%.
Seems like a good plan might be to nuke for max DPS from a distance early in the fight, and then when mana becomes a concern ease off to come down the threat list, then move in and start hitting with your weapon to regen mana. Blizz wouldn't have given you all that armor and a hit-based regen talent for nothin. : )
3 posts
Hello all, just to add one thing tho getting the moonkin manaregen is based on not only your FAP but also the swing speed of your wep. so if you have a fast wep. and hit the mob you will get less mana regen than if you use a wep. with slow swing speed.
Had to add one more thing I forgot. As far as I can remember the window for manaregen talent to proc is open for 0.5 sec each 3 sec meaning having a feral wep with a speed of 3-3.5 sec makes this talent proc nearly every swing on eartwarden.
Atleast as far as I have been able to figure out.
Pls correct me if sombody have got more acurate numbers on it tho.
Edited, Nov 26th 2007 2:08am by lusindra
Edited, Nov 26th 2007 2:45am by lusindra
Had to add one more thing I forgot. As far as I can remember the window for manaregen talent to proc is open for 0.5 sec each 3 sec meaning having a feral wep with a speed of 3-3.5 sec makes this talent proc nearly every swing on eartwarden.
Atleast as far as I have been able to figure out.
Pls correct me if sombody have got more acurate numbers on it tho.
Edited, Nov 26th 2007 2:08am by lusindra
Edited, Nov 26th 2007 2:45am by lusindra
5 posts
Correct on the casting in melee range, i was just talking about the weapon dmg. I still have never had it be a problem since I watched my threat to begin with and after 2-3 seconds of weapon swinging the tank will likely have a huge threat lead since my dps with my staff is crap.
your probably right on the procs per minute thing, I always thought it was chance per swing but now that I look again its a chance on hit. This means it likely has a X times per minute rate and getting the right weapon speed will help a lot. Never done any math on it so I cant say for sure.
if I do run out of mana i ussually cat form it. The fight is ussualy almost over by then anyway. In a 5 man you really shouldnt run oom if you manage your pots right. Just drink a pot when you drop to half mana and by the time you are going OOM you have a choice to drink and keep up the damage or go kitty and dont waste the pot. by that time pretty much anything is dead.
Dont forget to use your innervate. Most ppl save it for when they really need it, but that just means using once a week instead of whenever the cooldown is up. The average instance will allow innervate to be used 10-15 times, so unless there is a boss fight directly ahead use it up.
your probably right on the procs per minute thing, I always thought it was chance per swing but now that I look again its a chance on hit. This means it likely has a X times per minute rate and getting the right weapon speed will help a lot. Never done any math on it so I cant say for sure.
if I do run out of mana i ussually cat form it. The fight is ussualy almost over by then anyway. In a 5 man you really shouldnt run oom if you manage your pots right. Just drink a pot when you drop to half mana and by the time you are going OOM you have a choice to drink and keep up the damage or go kitty and dont waste the pot. by that time pretty much anything is dead.
Dont forget to use your innervate. Most ppl save it for when they really need it, but that just means using once a week instead of whenever the cooldown is up. The average instance will allow innervate to be used 10-15 times, so unless there is a boss fight directly ahead use it up.
I wish there was more caster stalves with the +FAP on it. The only one that does is one of the Tempest Keep Legendaries for The Eye. :(
EDIT: Staff of Disintegration
Edited, Nov 26th 2007 8:33am by Micros
EDIT: Staff of Disintegration
Edited, Nov 26th 2007 8:33am by Micros
ah, I'd just like to see a Moonkin run up to Prince or Some similar Boss and whack away cuz they are Oom. If i was a raid leader and saw this, I'd probably never take that Moonkin in the raid again.
Can you imagine a Resto druid running up and whacking away to get the OoC proc? I doubt you would like that either.
Mana shouldnt be an issue, if you pot and innervate properly. If your smart, You go for the gears that have MP5 on them. Also get the mp5 gems etc, Mp5 to chest blah blah blah.
Pot as soon as your mana is low enough to be filled again, by the time it gets low, your pot should be up again.
Moonfire is the worst spell to use in a long fight, so dont. High mana cost, decent damage, but by the time you cast 2 moonfires, you used enough mana for an extra wrath. 3 wraths > 2 moonfires in damage. more chance at your sped up casting rate for a starfire boom too imo.
Can you imagine a Resto druid running up and whacking away to get the OoC proc? I doubt you would like that either.
Mana shouldnt be an issue, if you pot and innervate properly. If your smart, You go for the gears that have MP5 on them. Also get the mp5 gems etc, Mp5 to chest blah blah blah.
Pot as soon as your mana is low enough to be filled again, by the time it gets low, your pot should be up again.
Moonfire is the worst spell to use in a long fight, so dont. High mana cost, decent damage, but by the time you cast 2 moonfires, you used enough mana for an extra wrath. 3 wraths > 2 moonfires in damage. more chance at your sped up casting rate for a starfire boom too imo.
There are other considerations as well when it comes to not going Oom in a fight, one should possibly consider downranking of spells. Even if you have the best gear you could possibly have it is possible to run out of mana. By downranking one or two ranks of the spell you spam the most you will use less mana and have more time at casting. This also means more time for in cast regeneration. The loss of damage should be minimal on a per cast basis and since you are casting for longer the amount of damage that you do has the potential to end up being higher in the end.
As for the "best" spell to spam, I find that Starfire is by far the better choice. Just using MoW I have about +103 mana per 5. So for about every five casts of Starfire at max rank I regen enough mana to cast the 6th one. By that same token it would take the time spent casting 10 Wrath spells to have enough mana regenerated for the 11th. Over the course of the castings the wrath spammer has used up about 2.3k mana at the least. I using starfire have used up around 1.7k mana. This is of course not taking crits into acount for reduced cast time. IMO the add DPS of the Wrath spell (if it truely does more damage) is not worth the loss of longevity in a fight.
From the numbers I usually see my wrath ends up doing slightly better than half the damage from my starfire right now. (Wraths hit for 950 damage on average while starfire is about 1750)
As for gear Mandragal is outfitted in gear that can be found prior to doing any Karazhan raiding except for one of the rings which drops in the chess event and the T4 gloves. The hardest things to come by are the Epic crafted pieces (Windhawk set and the Windscale Hood). The rest of the items are either dungeon drops from non-heroics, killing the horseman, and rep rewards.
This was a little OT from the origional post, sorry for the tangent. As for the weapon I would use while regening mana, I would go for the Dreamer's dragon staff for end game. The trick is getting a lucky drop off the Satyr boss in Botanica. Stick with a caster item for while you can stay at range then if needed switch to the staff to maximize the regen you see in melee.
As for the "best" spell to spam, I find that Starfire is by far the better choice. Just using MoW I have about +103 mana per 5. So for about every five casts of Starfire at max rank I regen enough mana to cast the 6th one. By that same token it would take the time spent casting 10 Wrath spells to have enough mana regenerated for the 11th. Over the course of the castings the wrath spammer has used up about 2.3k mana at the least. I using starfire have used up around 1.7k mana. This is of course not taking crits into acount for reduced cast time. IMO the add DPS of the Wrath spell (if it truely does more damage) is not worth the loss of longevity in a fight.
From the numbers I usually see my wrath ends up doing slightly better than half the damage from my starfire right now. (Wraths hit for 950 damage on average while starfire is about 1750)
As for gear Mandragal is outfitted in gear that can be found prior to doing any Karazhan raiding except for one of the rings which drops in the chess event and the T4 gloves. The hardest things to come by are the Epic crafted pieces (Windhawk set and the Windscale Hood). The rest of the items are either dungeon drops from non-heroics, killing the horseman, and rep rewards.
This was a little OT from the origional post, sorry for the tangent. As for the weapon I would use while regening mana, I would go for the Dreamer's dragon staff for end game. The trick is getting a lucky drop off the Satyr boss in Botanica. Stick with a caster item for while you can stay at range then if needed switch to the staff to maximize the regen you see in melee.
Scholar
40 posts
Quote:
Can you imagine a Resto druid running up and whacking away to get the OoC proc? I doubt you would like that either.
Ahem.. erm I have done that before with my Resto druid... Was in lower lvl dungeons where my healing aint as vital (such as scholomance with a 70 group). But in tree it never worth it, if im hitting i dont need to heal, but always usefull for a quick moonfire or hurricane if the situation is right! :P
Quote:
Had to add one more thing I forgot. As far as I can remember the window for manaregen talent to proc is open for 0.5 sec each 3 sec meaning having a feral wep with a speed of 3-3.5 sec makes this talent proc nearly every swing on eartwarden.
So having a fast atk speed like a dagger aint actually going to help much. Thanks for that. Looks like staffs are gonna win.
15 posts
Quote:
There are other considerations as well when it comes to not going Oom in a fight, one should possibly consider downranking of spells. Even if you have the best gear you could possibly have it is possible to run out of mana. By downranking one or two ranks of the spell you spam the most you will use less mana and have more time at casting. This also means more time for in cast regeneration. The loss of damage should be minimal on a per cast basis and since you are casting for longer the amount of damage that you do has the potential to end up being higher in the end.
Respectfully, magictcg is wrong here. Mana regeneration is massively better outside of the five second rule than within it. If you have mana issues, you're better off casting full bore and squeezing a few tics outside of the five second rule mid-combat than you are downranking spells. Consider also that higher level spells give better base damage-to-mana ratios than lower spell ranks. +Spell damage's effect on lower spell ranks have been nerfed by Blizzard; this is not a consideration that might turn the tides in favor of lower level spells. In this light, the idea of downranking because of mana issues is ridiculous. Downranking damage spells is about threat management.
Edit: If the duration of your fights isn't conducive to a 10-15 second timeout, gauge your manabar as you get low and downgrade then. There's just no reason to downgrade from the start and continue that way.
Edited, Dec 4th 2007 4:14am by Dagis
You actually probably DON'T want a weapon with both +dmg and FAP, as you'd get poor amounts of both because they both take up the portion the itemization that's gained by cutting down base weapon damage to ~41.6dps. Take your favorite caster staff, and your favorite similar-level feral staff. Then half the amounts of both. Would you really want a weapon that did that? It'd be more effective to pick up a feral staff to switch out right before you melee, and switch back to your caster one at your first cast.
Also, I really wouldn't base your main weapon off weapon speed, just "another" weapon you use for regen (i.e. a feral staff). Provided both one-hands and staves are available (post-Outlands, that is), onehand/offhand combos offer more raw DPS stats. And in my experience, in raiding at least, the chances of a moonkin being oom are fairly low, especially if your raid leaders know how to make groups and put you with an spriest and 3 mages.
Also, I really wouldn't base your main weapon off weapon speed, just "another" weapon you use for regen (i.e. a feral staff). Provided both one-hands and staves are available (post-Outlands, that is), onehand/offhand combos offer more raw DPS stats. And in my experience, in raiding at least, the chances of a moonkin being oom are fairly low, especially if your raid leaders know how to make groups and put you with an spriest and 3 mages.
Scholar
40 posts
Well I have been getting my Druid up some more levels (32 now! 8 more to go) and for the most part whilst soloing Mana is not an issue at all. I do a fair amount (30% or so) of damage via just wacking things but with spells thrown in to keep to the damage up. In groups however I find myself struggling after one or two mobs to have any mana left. With a decent tank I am free to sit at the back and nuke, but this is mana draining to me. I usually Run with a Moonfire + insect DoT and then use Starfire to hurt the mob. My DPS is usually up high with the rest of the group but every couple of battles I find myself having to stop and drink (which is so slow, mana drinks can't keep up with my mana) or go cat for a few battles whilst my mana rechages.
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