I am currently using a combat mace build both for PvP and PvE. I am thinking about changing to this build: http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=fZhfV0rVt0M0oZxrfohhRox
I want to know if it is a good idea to use the above mentioned build both in raids and PvP (Arena, BG). I know it is not the TOP build for PvE or PvP, but I anticipate from it that it will be both raid and PvP viable.
I would be grateful for any suggestions.
Edited, Nov 24th 2007 7:53am by Gordyman
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0/31/30 in raids and PvPFollow
No, it won't be.
You need 11 points at the very least in Assassination to be raid-viable.
If you're looking to be viable in PvE and PvP, you need to go full combat.
You need 11 points at the very least in Assassination to be raid-viable.
If you're looking to be viable in PvE and PvP, you need to go full combat.
Scholar
39 posts
Relentless Strikes (in Assassination) returns energy to you throughout a whole boss fight.
Adrenaline Rush amounts to a couple extra SSes/Hemos. You want those 11 points in assassination for the better energy (Output? Regen? Dunno what word to use here.).
But if you're just a casual PvPer, then I suppose you could get by with the PvE hemo spec. But as Theo said, full combat if you really want to do both.
Adrenaline Rush amounts to a couple extra SSes/Hemos. You want those 11 points in assassination for the better energy (Output? Regen? Dunno what word to use here.).
But if you're just a casual PvPer, then I suppose you could get by with the PvE hemo spec. But as Theo said, full combat if you really want to do both.
Meh.
I've been fighting for #1 in raid with a sword rogue forever. Sometimes I'm #1 - most of the time when he dies, he has a tendency to do that - but he usually is.
Then the patch hit, he stayed combat, I want 11/27/23... I smoked him.
So he went 11/27/23 and went back to #1.
Then a few week back he specced for pvp and was to lazy to respec and did Hydross as 31/30...
And to my dismay, he beat me AND the Warlocks using SoC on Hydross.
Use AR early... then the when the 6 minute CD is done, the boss will be under 35% - Dirty Deeds kick in - use it AR again, then prep and use it a 2nd time.
So I'm starting to doubt just how important those 11 point in Assassination truly are.
Edited, Nov 24th 2007 8:24am by Tyrandor
I've been fighting for #1 in raid with a sword rogue forever. Sometimes I'm #1 - most of the time when he dies, he has a tendency to do that - but he usually is.
Then the patch hit, he stayed combat, I want 11/27/23... I smoked him.
So he went 11/27/23 and went back to #1.
Then a few week back he specced for pvp and was to lazy to respec and did Hydross as 31/30...
And to my dismay, he beat me AND the Warlocks using SoC on Hydross.
Use AR early... then the when the 6 minute CD is done, the boss will be under 35% - Dirty Deeds kick in - use it AR again, then prep and use it a 2nd time.
So I'm starting to doubt just how important those 11 point in Assassination truly are.
Edited, Nov 24th 2007 8:24am by Tyrandor
I'd be much more interested to see how he did on a better Rogue fight. Tidewalker, FLK, Al'ar, Solarian, etc.
As for Relentless Strikes vs. AR, it's pretty easy to find out which gives more energy. We'll say you're using a 1s/5r cycle. That takes 6 CPs. Two of those you have a 60% chance to get free, so we'll say you need 4.8 CPs. At 35 energy per CP, you need 168 energy, which is 8.4 seconds (we're speaking in averages, so I'm not going to round anything off). You've also got two 25 energy finishers, for another 2.5 seconds worth of energy. This means our cycle takes 10.9 seconds. We get a 20% chance for 25 energy, and a 100% chance for 25, for 30 energy returned per cycle. We'll say the boss fight lasts exactly 5.5 minutes, which is the best case scenario for AR/Prep. You'll get to use AR 3 times, which yields 450 energy.
Relentless strikes gives us 30 energy every 10.9 seconds, which in a 5.5 minute fight, is 908 energy. So, in pure energy generation, Relentless Strikes is over 100% better than AR + Prep. What about the DD factor? We'll say that AR + prep gets both the last ARs in under 35%. This means they get 300 energy during the best time to get the energy. 11/27/23 gets its energy spread evenly, so 35% of its 908 comes during this time. This comes out to 317.8.
I'd say that's pretty conclusive. The extra ARs in under 35% don't make a difference, and Relentless Strikes just plain beats AR + Prep.
My guess as to why he beat everyone on DPS is because of double Blade Flurry during AR, granting him a much better showing on the damage meters, while not really contributing a whole lot more.
As for Relentless Strikes vs. AR, it's pretty easy to find out which gives more energy. We'll say you're using a 1s/5r cycle. That takes 6 CPs. Two of those you have a 60% chance to get free, so we'll say you need 4.8 CPs. At 35 energy per CP, you need 168 energy, which is 8.4 seconds (we're speaking in averages, so I'm not going to round anything off). You've also got two 25 energy finishers, for another 2.5 seconds worth of energy. This means our cycle takes 10.9 seconds. We get a 20% chance for 25 energy, and a 100% chance for 25, for 30 energy returned per cycle. We'll say the boss fight lasts exactly 5.5 minutes, which is the best case scenario for AR/Prep. You'll get to use AR 3 times, which yields 450 energy.
Relentless strikes gives us 30 energy every 10.9 seconds, which in a 5.5 minute fight, is 908 energy. So, in pure energy generation, Relentless Strikes is over 100% better than AR + Prep. What about the DD factor? We'll say that AR + prep gets both the last ARs in under 35%. This means they get 300 energy during the best time to get the energy. 11/27/23 gets its energy spread evenly, so 35% of its 908 comes during this time. This comes out to 317.8.
I'd say that's pretty conclusive. The extra ARs in under 35% don't make a difference, and Relentless Strikes just plain beats AR + Prep.
My guess as to why he beat everyone on DPS is because of double Blade Flurry during AR, granting him a much better showing on the damage meters, while not really contributing a whole lot more.
Wait... so you're saying that timered abilities are good on a boss where you stop DPS continually?
No, really? And next you'll tell me that Blade Flurry is good in AE situations or something!
We haven't run SSC in a while, but our Rogues (and me, for that matter) used to place in the top tier on damage on Morogrim which is even more AE friendly. Because there's a break between AE waves you give Blade Flurry (and Sweeping Strikes/Whirlwind) time to recharge between waves, which means that Warriors and Rogues look like AE machines even next to Sir SoCalot over there.
If it's sustained AE over the entire fight (see: Terestian Illhoof) it's not so much, but beating people on a fight lke Hydross with a large pool of timered abilities? Meh. Throw in the additional caveats about small sample sizes. I've pulled more DPS with Warrior Mace Spec in PvE than I have with Sword Spec, and I sure don't think it's because Mace Spec is better; I just think that my tributes to the RNG have paid off.
No, really? And next you'll tell me that Blade Flurry is good in AE situations or something!
We haven't run SSC in a while, but our Rogues (and me, for that matter) used to place in the top tier on damage on Morogrim which is even more AE friendly. Because there's a break between AE waves you give Blade Flurry (and Sweeping Strikes/Whirlwind) time to recharge between waves, which means that Warriors and Rogues look like AE machines even next to Sir SoCalot over there.
If it's sustained AE over the entire fight (see: Terestian Illhoof) it's not so much, but beating people on a fight lke Hydross with a large pool of timered abilities? Meh. Throw in the additional caveats about small sample sizes. I've pulled more DPS with Warrior Mace Spec in PvE than I have with Sword Spec, and I sure don't think it's because Mace Spec is better; I just think that my tributes to the RNG have paid off.
He didn't do much worse on Trash.
And I'd assumed that he'd do equally as good on Leo, another fight where you stop dps continually.
So he's doing good to better on trash and doing better on 2 out of 5 bosses in SSC...
It goes with what Theo said:
If you're looking to be viable in PvE and PvP, you need to go full combat.
But from what I've seen, 0/31/30 isn't 'totally useless' - dare I say viable? - in pve and it rock in pvp, making the suggestion to go full combat seems a bit pre-2.3.
I'll readily admit that the sample is small. I might be singing a different tune after a few more weeks of raiding, but the pve effectivness of 31/30 is at least good enough to give one reason to stop and think about it.
Edited, Nov 24th 2007 6:18pm by Tyrandor
And I'd assumed that he'd do equally as good on Leo, another fight where you stop dps continually.
So he's doing good to better on trash and doing better on 2 out of 5 bosses in SSC...
It goes with what Theo said:
Quote:
If you're looking to be viable in PvE and PvP, you need to go full combat.
But from what I've seen, 0/31/30 isn't 'totally useless' - dare I say viable? - in pve and it rock in pvp, making the suggestion to go full combat seems a bit pre-2.3.
I'll readily admit that the sample is small. I might be singing a different tune after a few more weeks of raiding, but the pve effectivness of 31/30 is at least good enough to give one reason to stop and think about it.
Edited, Nov 24th 2007 6:18pm by Tyrandor
So what you guys say is that 0/31/30 isnt good for raids but how is it for instances/heroics? I was thinking it was stil viable for those 2.
ZilkDS wrote:
So what you guys say is that 0/31/30 isnt good for raids but how is it for instances/heroics? I was thinking it was stil viable for those 2.
If you need a special build for heroics, you're doing something wrong.
I could walk into pretty much any pug heroic group without any talent points spent and still be threat capped on DPS. Tanks are going to be the limiting factor on your DPS nine times out of ten.
11/28/22 - PvE
0/31/30 - PvP
The latter isn't terrible for PvE, but 11/28/22 is better sustained DPS.
11/28/22 - PvE
0/31/30 - PvP
The latter isn't terrible for PvE, but 11/28/22 is better sustained DPS.
I'm not going to argue that 31/30 is better for pve... but I'm going to argue that you can make it work. Prep and AR makes you really powerful on trash mobs (allowing to pad the meter) and on boss with a lot of 'stop dps!' gimmicks going on.
Deadliness certainly scale better then Lethality... then main problem is the lost of Ruthlessness and Recklessness.
Deadliness certainly scale better then Lethality... then main problem is the lost of Ruthlessness and Recklessness.
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