So, I recently made a druid and was stumbling around the wowwiki website and figured I would search up the greatest of all druid forms, the beloved moonkin. in Doing so I found something interesting (and to be honest incredibly awesome) the concept of the Panzerkin, a tanking moonkin. Now, I've heard a whole lot of negativity on this subject, many many many people simply saying "GTFO n00b!!!!" or other combinations of bad acronyms, exclamations and numbers, and I was interested in what the perspective of other (hopefully more open minded) folk would be.
Personally, this is my goal for the druid I have made, to become one of these tanking moonkin, to be a panzerkin, and this will remain my goal regardless of how many people say I'm wasting my time,I'm just honestly interested in what people think.
A note though, originally I thought this was impossible, to actually have this be a viable option, until I read a guide showing how to make it work, and watched some videos on youtube of the moonkin who created the guide tanking both prince and Gruul, if you'd like to see it yourself, search up tanking moonkin.
- Forums
- World of Warcraft
- Class Discussion
- druids, something new and FREAKIN cool :p
druids, something new and FREAKIN cool :pFollow
it *can* work, but its very much like fitting a square peg into a round hole; its quite possible to do, but generally requires the equivalent of drastic surgery to make it work.
so, in short, yeah, its doable, but its like making a shaman into a tank. it requires a ridiculous amount of work and no small amount of "overgearing" for the encounter in question.
so, in short, yeah, its doable, but its like making a shaman into a tank. it requires a ridiculous amount of work and no small amount of "overgearing" for the encounter in question.
Quote:
and this will remain my goal regardless of how many people say I'm wasting my time,I'm just honestly interested in what people think.
In other words you want our opinions as long as they back up your point.
I'm gonna say it's like me tanking on my rogue...yeah I've done it, but it was a lot more work. On a moonkin you have less AoEs, you get interrupted when you get hit, and you still dont have the health a bear has. You miss out on growl, the extra threat generation, and you have no way to gain back mana whereas a bear would keep rage through the whole thing.
So...
1) You would have to have the extra health to match up to a bear (and make up for the loss of dodge you get from feral talents).
2) You would have to hold aggro on all mobs in the fight, which pretty much means pulling an insane amount of DPS WHILE getting hit. In other words you would have to severely outgear the rest of the group.
3) You would have to do all of this without going OOM.
This is as open-minded and as druid-loving a crowd as there is. And consensus here has been that there's lots of reasons tanking as a moonkin is silly. They've been covered above so I won't reiterate them.
It's obviously possible for an epic'd-out moonkin driven by an expert player with an accomodating guild occasionally tank even a raid boss, but I bet the groups you saw doing that are well beyond those encounters in terms of end-game progression, and were ******** around, showing off, whatever. I guaran-friggin-tee they're not rollin with that moonkin tank into whatever instances they don't have on farm status.
It's as much about "acceptance" as "ability" and you flat-out won't get accepted to groups or guilds as what you're calling a panzerkin.
Have fun and good luck, though.
It's obviously possible for an epic'd-out moonkin driven by an expert player with an accomodating guild occasionally tank even a raid boss, but I bet the groups you saw doing that are well beyond those encounters in terms of end-game progression, and were ******** around, showing off, whatever. I guaran-friggin-tee they're not rollin with that moonkin tank into whatever instances they don't have on farm status.
It's as much about "acceptance" as "ability" and you flat-out won't get accepted to groups or guilds as what you're calling a panzerkin.
Have fun and good luck, though.
Just to concur with everyone else: Panzerkins are a novelty. Something that some people have done for fun with content they have down and on farm. I've heard of Panzerkins tanking even Gruul but that was with a high level guild and, again, just for fun. There is no hope for actual end-game tanking as a Moonkin. Why? Because you have a perfectly good tanking form to do that with. Furthermore, Moonkin lacks a taunt ability, effective threat generating abilities, and so much more.
Scholar
21 posts
"In other words you want our opinions as long as they back up your point."
Actually, as I stated before I was simply looking for an open minded perspective, which I have happily received.
Thanks to everyone who replied ^_^
Actually, as I stated before I was simply looking for an open minded perspective, which I have happily received.
Thanks to everyone who replied ^_^
You also said "this will remain my goal regardless of how many people say I'm wasting my time" which seemed to sound like you're bent on only that.
If you truly want to give it a go, then start doing arena now. The arena gear is the only way you can get yourself to "uncrittable" status. It also has plenty of armor, stamina & spell damage.
It is possible, but requires excellent healers, and DPS that is capable of watching the meters as you don't have any threat bonuses on your spells.
The lack of a taunt is not as much of an issue in raids, as you have OT's & cc.
In a 5 man though, I don't think there is a heroic I've done where taunt hasn't save probably a dozen wipes.
It is possible, but requires excellent healers, and DPS that is capable of watching the meters as you don't have any threat bonuses on your spells.
The lack of a taunt is not as much of an issue in raids, as you have OT's & cc.
In a 5 man though, I don't think there is a heroic I've done where taunt hasn't save probably a dozen wipes.
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=0tcrzihoxzZxMGsfdox lolz.
Scholar
19 posts
I see very little benefit of that build. There are too many talents in the balance tree that would be useful to put 25 almost useless points into Feral just to get HotW. To name a few, Moonglow and Dreamstate to increase longevity, Wrath of Cenarius and Lunar Guidance to increase spell damage, and Balance of Nature to decrease resists.
Edit: We could name it "Enabler". that was a low blow, sorry.
Anyway, the real reason I edited was because I realized all I did was add a negative comment. So here's a build I would think would work for a Panzerkin (Note, I am a tank, but not boomkin style so take this build with a grain of salt)
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=0xcrziIsguVoZxxcz
I really wanted to get thick hide, but couldn't figure out what to drop for it, and the 5 points needed to get to 2nd tier were wasted on either ferocity or feral aggression.
Edited, Dec 3rd 2007 11:18am by FluxDensity
Edit: We could name it "Enabler". that was a low blow, sorry.
Anyway, the real reason I edited was because I realized all I did was add a negative comment. So here's a build I would think would work for a Panzerkin (Note, I am a tank, but not boomkin style so take this build with a grain of salt)
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=0xcrziIsguVoZxxcz
I really wanted to get thick hide, but couldn't figure out what to drop for it, and the 5 points needed to get to 2nd tier were wasted on either ferocity or feral aggression.
Edited, Dec 3rd 2007 11:18am by FluxDensity
FluxDensity wrote:
...Moonglow and Dreamstate to increase longevity...
Dude, that almost sounds like some natural version on Viagra read this way.
15 posts
Yep, absolutely unrealistic. I don't know what you read, but Panzerkin is a moonkin spec that sacrifices points in Resto to get Feral Charge for PvP, which pre-TBC left just enough points in resto for the shapeshift mana reduction. Along with the talent spec, the idea was that you were sacrificing cloth itemization's superior spell damage for leather's better physical damage mitigation. So the idea was that you were turning a glass cannon into a tank. That's how Panzerkin got its name. It doesn't have anything to do with tanking in the PvE sense of the word.
The feral tree holds superior survivability and threat generation that is specific to bear form. It's a case of "Anything you can do, I can do better." Plus, relying on spell damage for threat is a bad idea, because tanking = getting hit -> spell pushback -> lower dps -> lower threat -> losing aggro. Most importantly, moonkin has no taunt button. Sure, now you can shapeshift straight to bear to taunt and back, but at that point, why not just tank as a bear?
Final thought: any tank that relies on mana for threat generation should not have the nickname "OOMkin."
Edited, Dec 4th 2007 11:46am by Dagis
The feral tree holds superior survivability and threat generation that is specific to bear form. It's a case of "Anything you can do, I can do better." Plus, relying on spell damage for threat is a bad idea, because tanking = getting hit -> spell pushback -> lower dps -> lower threat -> losing aggro. Most importantly, moonkin has no taunt button. Sure, now you can shapeshift straight to bear to taunt and back, but at that point, why not just tank as a bear?
Final thought: any tank that relies on mana for threat generation should not have the nickname "OOMkin."
Edited, Dec 4th 2007 11:46am by Dagis
Ok. Only comment I got.
A tanking moonkin doesnt go oom. LAWL do you for get the mana generating ability in the tree that procs? It procs very well indeed. If you want to get hit.
However, if your meleeing (sp?), then you are not casting, or creating the threat needed to hold aggro.
Interesting enough, I have tanked Steam Vaults (normal) on my druid in moonkin, we really did die alot, and emerged victorious after about 3 1/2 hours. I intend to never ever repeat it again. (I used a mixture of my feral tanking and boomkin gears, 2 mages and a hunter made it work)
Closing: Go ahead if you want to do it, and good luck finding someone to repeatedly group with you as moonkin tank!
A tanking moonkin doesnt go oom. LAWL do you for get the mana generating ability in the tree that procs? It procs very well indeed. If you want to get hit.
However, if your meleeing (sp?), then you are not casting, or creating the threat needed to hold aggro.
Interesting enough, I have tanked Steam Vaults (normal) on my druid in moonkin, we really did die alot, and emerged victorious after about 3 1/2 hours. I intend to never ever repeat it again. (I used a mixture of my feral tanking and boomkin gears, 2 mages and a hunter made it work)
Closing: Go ahead if you want to do it, and good luck finding someone to repeatedly group with you as moonkin tank!
12 posts
The idea of moonkin form is to be a high DPS caster with very good protection from physical attacks, rather than a tank. A druid gearing up for tanking would have equipment that gives bonuses to agility, stamina, defense/dodge rating, melée attack power, etc. They have talents to increase armour, stamina in bear form, threat, dodge rating etc. Bear form also gives skills like growl (to hold aggro), feral charge (to get around quickly), roar (to lower opponents attack power) frenzied regeneration (stay alive longer) plus they generate higher threat (in PvE).
While Moonkins have high armour, it will not be as high as a dire bear, warrior or paladin. The job of the tank is absorb as much damage as possible and keep the attention of incoming attacks on them. A moonkin would not be great at either of those. You say you will do it regardless of how many people say you're wasting your time....so enjoy doing it, but don't be surprised if people ask another tank to join their party. You will be doing yourself a disservice as you will end up great at neither DPS or tanking.
While Moonkins have high armour, it will not be as high as a dire bear, warrior or paladin. The job of the tank is absorb as much damage as possible and keep the attention of incoming attacks on them. A moonkin would not be great at either of those. You say you will do it regardless of how many people say you're wasting your time....so enjoy doing it, but don't be surprised if people ask another tank to join their party. You will be doing yourself a disservice as you will end up great at neither DPS or tanking.
Pandastic, I have to give you credit for determination if nothing else. But to paraphrase W.C. Fields, "If at first you don't succeed, try again. If you don't succeed the second time, give up. There's no sense being a damn fool about it."
13 posts
Moonkin druids certainly can make good tanks, but the question is how their ability compares to the other tanking classes. And of course given a perfectly good bear form, why a druid would ever want to tank as a moonkin?
The only reason that I see to become a moonkin tank is the ability to generate impressive ranged dps, cover off-healing and main-healing roles in groups, and retain the ability to be an effective tank. The fact that you can do all of these things in the same build, and to some degree the same gear, makes grouping for instances incredibly easy. That is if you can actually find a group that will let you moonkin tank.
Some advantages to being a moonkin tank are:
1.High Initial threat: A moonkin tank can begin with a high amount of initial threat compared to other classes that must build up threat over time. This alows DPS players to begin attacking immedietly and at their highest potential damage with little risk of aggroing the mob.
2. AOE threat: Moonkin tanks are highly effective at generating AOE threat through the combined use of hurricane and thorns. With these two abilities a moonkin can keep aggro on mulitple trash mobs.
3. High armor: Moonkins benifit from the same 400% armor rating that feral druids do. This makes it possible for moonkins to reach the 75% mitigation cap making them highly effective at taking damage. This high armor rating combined with barksin can actually push the moonkin's armor rating over the 75% mark.
4. High DPS: Along with being a high mitigation tank capable of producing large amounts of threat, moonkin tanks can also deal impressive amounts of DPS. This ability can lead to faster dungeon runs.
However there are some obvious disadvantages to moonkin tanks:
1. As others have indicated, the lack of a taunt function is a major issue of moonkin tanks. The closest thing moonkins have to a taunt is their moonfire, which is usually enough to counter healing-aggro, but it's also highly mana expensive. The best solution to this problem is carefull planning and CC pre-pull.
2. Using mana as a basis for aggro is a fairly glaring problem when it comes to moonkin tanking, but in reality it only becomes an issue during long boss fights. A moonkin tank can either rely on other players to regenerate mana (ei. shadow preists and shamans) or they can use the built in Elune's Grace abilty to generate mana. However, this will result in both high and low threat periods.
3. Health is also a problem for moonkin tanks as we get no bonus to our stamina like bear druids do. These issue can be lessened through stamina enchants and consumables.
4. I find that the most hindering issue with moonkin tanking is the fact that few people think of moonkins as "tanks". There's almost no possibility of finding a PuG group that will allow you to tank as a moonkin. If you wish to moonkin tank your best bet is to find a guild that will allow you to tank.
I will end with a few possible builds that I have used while moonkin tanking.
1.http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=0xcrziIsguVoZxxcz
This is a more traditional moonkin dps build but it also has high tanking potential. It provides great mana effeciency, but is rather fragile.
2. http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=0xcrziIsguVox0hZxo
This build offers higher mitigation while sacrificing some mana-regeneration abilities. Damage production also declines slightly in this build.
Edited, Dec 4th 2007 4:52pm by KingMOOCOW
The only reason that I see to become a moonkin tank is the ability to generate impressive ranged dps, cover off-healing and main-healing roles in groups, and retain the ability to be an effective tank. The fact that you can do all of these things in the same build, and to some degree the same gear, makes grouping for instances incredibly easy. That is if you can actually find a group that will let you moonkin tank.
Some advantages to being a moonkin tank are:
1.High Initial threat: A moonkin tank can begin with a high amount of initial threat compared to other classes that must build up threat over time. This alows DPS players to begin attacking immedietly and at their highest potential damage with little risk of aggroing the mob.
2. AOE threat: Moonkin tanks are highly effective at generating AOE threat through the combined use of hurricane and thorns. With these two abilities a moonkin can keep aggro on mulitple trash mobs.
3. High armor: Moonkins benifit from the same 400% armor rating that feral druids do. This makes it possible for moonkins to reach the 75% mitigation cap making them highly effective at taking damage. This high armor rating combined with barksin can actually push the moonkin's armor rating over the 75% mark.
4. High DPS: Along with being a high mitigation tank capable of producing large amounts of threat, moonkin tanks can also deal impressive amounts of DPS. This ability can lead to faster dungeon runs.
However there are some obvious disadvantages to moonkin tanks:
1. As others have indicated, the lack of a taunt function is a major issue of moonkin tanks. The closest thing moonkins have to a taunt is their moonfire, which is usually enough to counter healing-aggro, but it's also highly mana expensive. The best solution to this problem is carefull planning and CC pre-pull.
2. Using mana as a basis for aggro is a fairly glaring problem when it comes to moonkin tanking, but in reality it only becomes an issue during long boss fights. A moonkin tank can either rely on other players to regenerate mana (ei. shadow preists and shamans) or they can use the built in Elune's Grace abilty to generate mana. However, this will result in both high and low threat periods.
3. Health is also a problem for moonkin tanks as we get no bonus to our stamina like bear druids do. These issue can be lessened through stamina enchants and consumables.
4. I find that the most hindering issue with moonkin tanking is the fact that few people think of moonkins as "tanks". There's almost no possibility of finding a PuG group that will allow you to tank as a moonkin. If you wish to moonkin tank your best bet is to find a guild that will allow you to tank.
I will end with a few possible builds that I have used while moonkin tanking.
1.http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=0xcrziIsguVoZxxcz
This is a more traditional moonkin dps build but it also has high tanking potential. It provides great mana effeciency, but is rather fragile.
2. http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=0xcrziIsguVox0hZxo
This build offers higher mitigation while sacrificing some mana-regeneration abilities. Damage production also declines slightly in this build.
Edited, Dec 4th 2007 4:52pm by KingMOOCOW
Moonkin Tanking. I am sure you guys have seen this, but just to prove the point, not that it is real viable though.
The biggest problem I see, is that if the group is all similarly geared, then the Boomkin won't be able to put out as much threat as a regular tank (certainly not as much as a bear tank). This means that the DPS will have to go slower (especially seeing there is no taunt if they go over the top).
No boomkin I have raided with has ever kept up with my threat in bear form so far and I just can't see that changing as we gear up.
No boomkin I have raided with has ever kept up with my threat in bear form so far and I just can't see that changing as we gear up.
As fun and cool as a Panzerkin might be, whats the point when there are already three classes that are MUCH better suited to it? Bear druid, Warrior and Pally can all tank more efficiently than a Moonkin, and Death Knight is going to be added to the ranks of tanks when the next expansion comes out, so I ask again; what is the point of having a Moonkin tank when there are already three classes, soon to be a fourth that will be able to do it better? You're only going to be holding your group back, putting in WAY too much effory to do a job someone else can do better.
One thing I guess you could pride yourself in as a Panzerkin would be that even if you did go apesh!t on DPS and pulled aggro, you could handle it, but outside of that there is no point.
One thing I guess you could pride yourself in as a Panzerkin would be that even if you did go apesh!t on DPS and pulled aggro, you could handle it, but outside of that there is no point.
Please, can we call the horse "glue" and move on?
Or, ask an admin to set a script that pops this $@#$%* thread to the top of the forum every 5 days? It seems like that's as long as it can stay dead before being re-resurrected by somebody else who wants to point out that moonkin tanking is technically feasible in special circumstances but a really silly idea in actual practice. Dead on 11/26, revived on 12/2...dead on 12/5, revived on 12/10.
Yes, I'm having one of those days. And this thread is just turning into its very own little pet peeve.
Or, ask an admin to set a script that pops this $@#$%* thread to the top of the forum every 5 days? It seems like that's as long as it can stay dead before being re-resurrected by somebody else who wants to point out that moonkin tanking is technically feasible in special circumstances but a really silly idea in actual practice. Dead on 11/26, revived on 12/2...dead on 12/5, revived on 12/10.
Yes, I'm having one of those days. And this thread is just turning into its very own little pet peeve.
I applaud the original guy that did this for doing something creative and awesome. For Kara runs, 5 mans, and things you have under control, that might be nice. For everyone hoping and dreaming about tanking Illidan as a moonkin...
Mitigation: Yup, same armor as a feral, but...
Someone pointed it out in his thread, the small problem that you cannot dodge, block or parry (though all we have is dodge anyway) while casting. I'm sure anyone looking around has seen the amazing amount of avoidance warriors and paladins need, and the dodge rate druids need.
So, we go from 25% Dodge from Karazhan to 30, 40 50% (I've seen that number batted around, 50% dodge seems absolutely crazy to me, can someone confirm this?) later, and reduce that down to 0. Whoo boy, somehow I can't help but feel that is going to give you a rather insane increase in damage taken, and a much smaller HP pool to survive it with.
Threat: You have a 70% resistance to pushback, but it is only 70%. You will still get pushback. If this happens several times in a row (30% chance? Oh yea, I've gone entire battles going "WHY CAN'T I DODGE?!", so it can happen in rapid succession), your DPS will pull hate. This is especially true with multiple mobs beating on you. He mentions using Cyclone to control adds, but that is even more time spent not putting threat on the main target. Not an issue if everything is CC'd, but some pulls simply don't allow for that.
If you lose hate, you can: Shift to bear, taunt...And hope the situation improves as you try to get back to what you were doing, or barkskin (1 global cooldown), and cast to get hate back, or just spam moonfire to try to pull it back. Personally I would be rather terrified for my life as a non-rogue (blargh at your Vanish! :P) melee dps in that group.
Mana: Self innervate is nice, you do regen on hit...But the hit timing seems pretty controlled, and even then he mentioned "regeneration periods". So unless you've created a pretty huge threat barrier between yourself and everyone else, all your DPS now have to reign back considerably.
Really it all goes down 1 thing in the end. Your group can have a tank with high mitigation that can reduce the load on the healers considerably, while putting out a consistant threat load, or you can have a tank with odd cycles, no mitigation outside of armor...You get the point.
Disclaimer: I'm nowhere near Illidan, this is all just general theory.
Edit: Aahahaha, Jee posted just before this. But it was already up here when I posted...
Edited, Dec 10th 2007 4:12pm by Riftaru
Mitigation: Yup, same armor as a feral, but...
Someone pointed it out in his thread, the small problem that you cannot dodge, block or parry (though all we have is dodge anyway) while casting. I'm sure anyone looking around has seen the amazing amount of avoidance warriors and paladins need, and the dodge rate druids need.
So, we go from 25% Dodge from Karazhan to 30, 40 50% (I've seen that number batted around, 50% dodge seems absolutely crazy to me, can someone confirm this?) later, and reduce that down to 0. Whoo boy, somehow I can't help but feel that is going to give you a rather insane increase in damage taken, and a much smaller HP pool to survive it with.
Threat: You have a 70% resistance to pushback, but it is only 70%. You will still get pushback. If this happens several times in a row (30% chance? Oh yea, I've gone entire battles going "WHY CAN'T I DODGE?!", so it can happen in rapid succession), your DPS will pull hate. This is especially true with multiple mobs beating on you. He mentions using Cyclone to control adds, but that is even more time spent not putting threat on the main target. Not an issue if everything is CC'd, but some pulls simply don't allow for that.
If you lose hate, you can: Shift to bear, taunt...And hope the situation improves as you try to get back to what you were doing, or barkskin (1 global cooldown), and cast to get hate back, or just spam moonfire to try to pull it back. Personally I would be rather terrified for my life as a non-rogue (blargh at your Vanish! :P) melee dps in that group.
Mana: Self innervate is nice, you do regen on hit...But the hit timing seems pretty controlled, and even then he mentioned "regeneration periods". So unless you've created a pretty huge threat barrier between yourself and everyone else, all your DPS now have to reign back considerably.
Really it all goes down 1 thing in the end. Your group can have a tank with high mitigation that can reduce the load on the healers considerably, while putting out a consistant threat load, or you can have a tank with odd cycles, no mitigation outside of armor...You get the point.
Disclaimer: I'm nowhere near Illidan, this is all just general theory.
Edit: Aahahaha, Jee posted just before this. But it was already up here when I posted...
Edited, Dec 10th 2007 4:12pm by Riftaru
Recent Visitors: 68
All times are in CST
Anonymous Guests (68)
- Forums
- World of Warcraft
- Class Discussion
- druids, something new and FREAKIN cool :p
© 2024 Fanbyte LLC