SoC doesn't really seem to cut it ...Follow

Had same problem... Went away before Thirty.

If you don't like it right now continue to use your SoR for now. Don't be shy about picking up some AGI, try fighting things 1 level below you, and get the slowest, biggest hitting Axe you can find.

At 32 with Corpsemaker with Fiery on it I hit for about 180, my SoC goes off at least 1/2 the time (seems like more) and hits for 200, and they both have a chance to proc Fiery! Quad-Crits are fun numbers...

310 60 380 66 in 1 swing =)

Searing blade is a much too fast weapon to really be effective on SoC. Try using it again after you get your Verigan's Fist.

As everyone else has already said, as a ret Paladin you really have to pay a LOT of attention to weapon speed -- more, really, than overall DPS. You're better off with a weapon that has slightly lower DPS if it is nice and slow, than you are with a faster, slightly higher DPS weapon. This trips up many Paladins early in the game before they are used to weighing weapon speed as a critical factor in equipment choice. The reason is that SoC procs at a very low rate per minute, and the slower your weapon the better chance you have of having it proc per swing.

For some or other reason, I can't see the armory from my office, so I can't get the correct URL.

My Pally's name is Bedivere on Kul Tiras(EU).

wrt a slower speed weapon being what is required, I fully understand the requirement (I have an MS warrior as a main, same thing applies there). My only concern was that it only seemed to proc once a minute or so ... that seems wrong in my mind. Even with a faster weapon, I would have expected to see it proc a little more often.

Then again, as Shinn said, maybe I've just been unlucky.

Thanks for the help guys, much appreciated.

That's why a backronym for SoC is Seal of Casino.

Wait, what? No. Unless some things have changed recently that I'm completely unaware of, there are no +modifiers for how often SoC hits. It's reliant on only two things: weapon speed and luck.


At 7PPM (Real PPM? What the hell is that?), SoC should proc 8.57 times a minute with a 1.00 swing timer.

3.6 speed weapons (which are the most common, 3.8 and above are extremely rare) swing 16.67 times a minute, so 17 swings in a little over a minute.

60/(16.67*8.57) = .42 probability of a proc every swing. So all things considered, with a slow enough weapon you should be seeing a proc at least one out of every three swings. If you're swinging 17 times, you should only see a proc on 17*.42 = 7.14 swings. 7 swings out of 17. Not 12. Still, that's much better than if you had a 2.5 speed weapon.

With 2.5 speed weapons you're swinging 24 times a minute for 60/(24*8.57) = .29 probability of a proc every swing. Now you're down to seeing a proc once every four swings, and it's going to be a much weaker proc too.

7 PPM with autoattacks. If there's 7 PPM, it should proc... 7 times in a minute no matter what the swing speed is on average. What he meant by Real PPM is probably your autoattack PPM plus the number of bonus procs you get off instant attacks (re: Crusader Strike).

yeah, if you have improved SoR in holy and enough +spell damage and the mana to support it, you can dish out good damage with SoR. however it is tough to have enough +spell damage to make that style anywhere near competitive with a properly geared ret pally using SoC. especially after you factor in the 8% crit bonus from talents.
i can put out decent damage on my 70 healadin with SoR (especially since i have the bonus +spelldamage from talents and even more +damage from healing gear now). but my 66 ret pally easily out dps's my 70. my 66 ret with the SoC and CS out dps's 70 hunters and locks and even one 70 mage... (ok the mage example is a rare case admittedly.)

to the OP stick it out, use slow, high damage weapons, and boost your ap/crit and you'll grow to love SoC. you'll love the occasional white crit/SoC crit combo followed by a CS crit... i love seeing, 1100 white, 1200 yellow, at the same time followed almost immediately by a 1200 from CS. you won't probably ever see 5k crits like a mage, but the number of SoC, white and CS crits makes up for it.

Eh... no. 7 PPM means you should get a proc once every 8.57s on average (60 / 7), or with a 3.6 swing speed on 42% of swings (3.6 / 8.57).

16.66 Swings * 42% Proc Chance = 6.99 Procs, which is the correct value given slight rounding errors.

As a general rule, if you expect 7 procs per minute and you end up without 7 procs per minute something is wrong with your math. =p



It's being moved to completely physical damage; I didn't know it couldn't before, but there's a decent chance it will as of the next patch.



Windfury?

So my original math was right. Why did you correct me then?

EDIT: Ah... I see. I worded that first line a little wrong. But the math is still correct.


CS is completely physical damage now and it doesn't proc SoC. It just derives bonus physical damage from your +spell damage. Without them actually coming out and saying that CS is going to proc SoC, I would be disinclined to expect it. I certainly haven't seen any mention of it on the 2.3.2 testing so far, and this is a fairly significant change that I would expect to be getting attention.


I thought they changed Windfury a long time ago so that additional procs can't proc off of it?

Increasing your attack speed with Moongoose or a haste buff would just be increasing your auto-attack speed, which goes along with what I said earlier: the only way to force more SoC procs is to augment your outgoing auto-attacks.

Edited, Dec 3rd 2007 3:54pm by Gaudion

OK First

I did NOT just spit out random Acronyms. PPM is Procs Per Minute (hey guess what thats a real term and generally used by the knowledgable WOWing community.) SPM is Swings per Minute cuz I didn't feel like typing it out.

I don't sit here and do math on fake numbers, or take recordings or any of that crap. What I said came DIRECTLY from DrDmg addon. MAYBE it's wrong. But with my Corpsemaker at 37 (when I quit Ret) my CM would swing 15.789473684210526315789473684211 times per minute if kept in constant combat (which is what PPMs calculates.) On that note, a base stat of 7ppm (which is what DrDmg says) my SoC was then set to 11.9 Procs Per Miniute adjusted (which I had been told was due to Agi.)

I don't care if you think I'm wrong. I don't even care if I AM wrong.
You getting so upset is hilarious to me.

Fact of the matter is SoC procs AT LEAST 50% of the time with any sort of good weapon, does massive damage, and is in no way an unreliable source of stable DPS.

OK First,

He didn't say you spit out random acronyms, he just said you through out a bunch of acronyms (which you did). He knows what PPM is and it took me a minute to figure out you meant Swings per Minute with SPM.

SECOND (if you're going to start numbering your points, at least continue it),

You don't need THAT many decimal points to put in a number, just round it off to 15.8 or something. Also, there has never been any proof or anything that has ever suggested that SoC procs increase with AGI. It is fairly constant that SoC procs 7 times a minute on average. You may have gotten lucky strings of them off. But other people with a lot more time on their hands has had SoC thoroughly researched and tested with an average SoC proc 7 times a minute.

Third,

I don't think he was upset, he was responding to your post which was just wrong. Anyone reading that post if it wasn't challenged who doesn't know any better might think that it was correct when it wasn't.


Fourth,

SoC does not proc at least 50% of the time unless you get a lucky string of procs. You would need a swing timer of about 4.2 seconds to get a SoC proc 50% of the time. Since it procs less than that, procs on a PPM system, and is in no way controlled by the user it is an unreliable source of STABLE DPS, and a very reliable source of BURST DPS, which is why SoB is preferred over SoC for a BE Paladin.

Fifth, (Yes there is a fifth)

I would highly recommend that you don't attack veteran members on the boards, especially with that attitude. You will just get flamed to death and get more mad than you need to. I think you are the one who was getting upset by this and it was very apparent in your post.

Ok... so at the end of it all, I did get the correct formula and conclusion. That arbitrary first line is just completely wrong. Hell, that's a major victory as far as I'm concerned.


Yeah, "interesting" is definitely the word for it. We were all throwing a collective fit when they made it quite clear during TBC beta testing that CS would not be triggering SoC.

Actually, the problem with CS not proccing SoC is on SoC's end and has nothing to do with CS. SoC is restricted to proccing off of auto-attacks to the exclusivity of all else.

Where's tommy when you need him? Could we get a Retribution Paladin in here to clear a few things up? Is CS capable of proccing things like Mongoose or other enchants, WF, etc.? I've not touched my Paladin in ages, much less Retribution post-50, so I'm not entirely clear on where things stand with CS beyond the fact that it absolutely will not proc SoC.

Edited, Dec 3rd 2007 5:05pm by Gaudion