Okay, so my pally was prot and I ran into people who say you can't tank unless you're a warrior. Pallys heal, not anything else. :-( Well, I chalk that up to ignorance. So, I decided to have some fun and spe ret. I'm lvl 49 now and went through ZF last night. How much damage should a ret pally do? Is the right rotation something like: Seal of Command -> Judgement of Command -> Seal of Command -> Beat on target for next 8 seconds -> Hammer of Justice -> Judgement of Command -> Seal of Command -> Beat on target -> Repentence -> Judgement of Command, ad nauseum?
I am sure I work crusader strike in at 50. Or, is 49 too low to be going ret as you don't have the right skillz yet? My armory link is here. Any help would be appreciated. I don't mind healing, but I really don't want to be pigeon-holed there by default.
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First off, I would recommend not speccing yourself based on what highly ignorant children think how you should play YOUR character.
Second, Paladins DO make excellent tanks. Anyone who says they don't is, in the strictest definition of the term, ignorant.
Further, while Retribution is generally known for being good in lower levels until you get to higher levels (where protection spec really shines), its usefulness does fall off at about your level.
Anyway, when I did sample Retribution at lower levels, I did Seal of Crusader -->Judge seal of crusader, then popped up seal of commmand. Reason I did that was to generate more holy damage on hit when SoC did proc.
However, I didn't like Retribution very much and specced full Protection spec at lvl 22 and haven't looked back. I don't kill quite as fast, but I'm nigh unkillable as well and can grind endlessly.
Second, Paladins DO make excellent tanks. Anyone who says they don't is, in the strictest definition of the term, ignorant.
Further, while Retribution is generally known for being good in lower levels until you get to higher levels (where protection spec really shines), its usefulness does fall off at about your level.
Anyway, when I did sample Retribution at lower levels, I did Seal of Crusader -->Judge seal of crusader, then popped up seal of commmand. Reason I did that was to generate more holy damage on hit when SoC did proc.
However, I didn't like Retribution very much and specced full Protection spec at lvl 22 and haven't looked back. I don't kill quite as fast, but I'm nigh unkillable as well and can grind endlessly.
Quote:
Or, is 49 too low to be going ret
Ret is the basic leveling tree so you'll never be "too low" to be Ret.
As for the skill sequence, I can only advise not doing Repentance in an instance since the mob will be hit like a second later and will wake up so it's just a waste of mana. Aside from that, I'd suggest judging something on the mob before using SoC. I've been told SotC was more or less a waste of mana for a Ret Pally, but maybe SoL or SoW could be nice, but then again I never really grouped while I was Ret.
Other than that... yeah, Ret is pretty much Seal up and auto-attack. Not exactly thrilling in my opinion but it works for some people.
SotC is not useless for a ret pally because it increases the holy damage caused by the effect of your SoC. When I was ret specced I found casting SoW or SoL was not very effective because ret pallies tend to use very slow weapons (to maximize the impact of SoC), which really saps the impact of SoW and SoL, both of which are much more effective with the faster weapons used with the 1h/shield combo.
As ret I would start cast SotC, then judge it as soon as I was in range and immediately cast SoC. If needed I would stun the mob and then judge SoC and recast it. Interspersting with Crusader strikes as well. Pretty effective DPS, but the main issue with ret is that it's a very mana hungry style of play if you want to do DPS, and not just autoattack.
As ret I would start cast SotC, then judge it as soon as I was in range and immediately cast SoC. If needed I would stun the mob and then judge SoC and recast it. Interspersting with Crusader strikes as well. Pretty effective DPS, but the main issue with ret is that it's a very mana hungry style of play if you want to do DPS, and not just autoattack.
I would also, but I got slapped the last time I said I'd judge SotC before using SoComm. =/
ktangent wrote:
Okay, so my pally was prot and I ran into people who say you can't tank unless you're a warrior. Pallys heal, not anything else. :-( Well, I chalk that up to ignorance.
yeah, that is ignorance. prot pallys are just as capable a tank as a warrior or druid on single targets, and far better than either at holding threat on multiple targets. only isue has been hp for end game raids and 2.3 addressed this issue. an actual prot pally could tell you if t was enough.
ktangent wrote:
So, I decided to have some fun and spe ret. I'm lvl 49 now and went through ZF last night. How much damage should a ret pally do? Is the right rotation something like: Seal of Command -> Judgement of Command -> Seal of Command -> Beat on target for next 8 seconds -> Hammer of Justice -> Judgement of Command -> Seal of Command -> Beat on target -> Repentence -> Judgement of Command, ad nauseum?
I am sure I work crusader strike in at 50.
I am sure I work crusader strike in at 50.
yep, thats pretty much what i do. except when you learn crusader strike do that first. i would use repentance more for runners and personal 'cc'. also except for bosses or in pvp theres no use for any judgement other than command at the beginning except maybe runners to judge justice. aside from justice to keep runners from pulling additional groups any other judgement is a waste of mana on trash you're gonna kill quick. on bosses judge crusader, light, or wisdom depending on the group composition. so most solo/trash fights would be SoC, CS, JoC, SoC. and then CS as priority whenever its up, judge whenever possible for crit chances to keep vengeance up. use HoJ and repentance as necessary, and keep in mind there will be fights that will be different.
ktangent wrote:
Or, is 49 too low to be going ret as you don't have the right skillz yet? My armory link is here. Any help would be appreciated. I don't mind healing, but I really don't want to be pigeon-holed there by default.
2 things on that... first, you're never too low (or high anymore) for ret. ret has traditionally been the leveling spec so its for 10 and up. with 2.3's changes its now a viable end game spec as well. secondly my first pally was holy from the begnning all the way to 70. holy is fun and healing can have its challenges.
in the end though if you think you'd like tanking, don't let people tell you not to go prot. if you end up staying ret, awesome.. love it. if you want to go holy and heal thats coo too. but as people have said many times in different threads, never let someone else tell you how to spend your $15... including me... feel free to disregard anything i've said here...
Professor gwynhara wrote:
but the main issue with ret is that it's a very mana hungry style of play if you want to do DPS, and not just autoattack.
ok, i've heard this and never understood this.... every time i group with mages, boomkins, and even locks and hunters i last twice as long as they do between drinks. usually, i really don't even need to stop and drink more than right before bosses just to top off and make sure i'm at 100% when we start the bosses. oh, and of the mana users i've grouped with, 1 mage has beat me.... so far only some rogues beat me :( working on that though.
my advice on blessings and weapon buffs is to use blessing of wisdom and mana oil instead of blessing of might and weight/sharpening stones... except pvp of course or when you have other pallys giving you wisdom...
That's because you aren't using many of your abilities, as you describe your style of play.
Professor gwynhara wrote:
That's because you aren't using many of your abilities, as you describe your style of play.
not using many like what? exorcism? i only use ths that on demons and undead... cause thats all i can use it on. hammer of wrath i only use when i hit them hard enough to get them under 20% and CS cooldown isn't up. holy wrath? only use that on 3 or more demons/undead and even then the cast time makes it questionable. ooohhhh, you man consecration.... then you're right. i haven't ben blessed with that many competent prot pallys. any time i use consecration with warrior or even druid tanks i find more things beating on me than i like. i have a lot ot rogue and hunter gear, so aggroing more than one mob=death. also i don't stack a lot of +spell dmg so consecration is only so-so. prot pallys can consecrate often and still have mana - they get more heals and they stack +spell dmg so it more mana efficient for them. not so for ret. did i miss anything else?
i was giving the basic rotation i usse for the majority of most fights... like i said, you need to be awrae of what abilities make sense when.
oh, and even not using all my abilities... i still out-dps most same lvl dpsers...except some rogues and that mage like i said before.
My point is that if you are playing a ret pally like a warrior (ie emphasizing primarily your white damage), obviously you arent going to have mana issues. I'm not talking about spamming consecrate, we all know that's silly. What I mean is that you will have more DPS if you judge SotC, if you judge SoC (even when not on stun, if you have fanaticism it does quite nice damage even outside of stuns), use crusader strike multiple times -- you will kill faster and do more damage, but this has a mana cost. Your system is more mana efficient simply because you are choosing not to use many abilities and rely on white damage, presumably having geared yourself that way as well. That's not a knock, but it's simply an issue of playstyle. If you were to use your abilities more, rest assured your DPS would be higher, but you would be using more mana -- that was my point.
who's going ret? well good for you brotha. first off, ktangent, you're a mage. are telling us that a ret pally is tedious and repetetive? scorch x5, fireball x20, evo, fireball x20 :D
here we go:
-dont judge SotC on trash. mana + time != extra dps. when you get to higher lvls and mobs get more xp, this is situational.
-do judge SotC on bosses. party crit + extra spell dmg = win
-watch the party, you are support. drop a BoP, judge wis/light as needed, cleanse a fear, be ready to drop a heal should MH fail
-dont bless wisdom on yourself, thats why you took those 3 mana talents in Ret for...besides, thats why you hit up the mage for drinks
-important! use HoJ and repentence only for runners and spell interupts
-use HoW everytime its up. everytime.
-dont consecrate! maybe to aoe bugs or when you get to Kara with a pally tank.
ability rotation:
on trash, always open with SoC on and judge JoC in melee range 1st. this will make auto attack hit, proc SoC and get JoC all in the 1st sec. judgement is not on GCD so CS is instantly ready too. power up SoC back and autoattack + CS until either A)SoC is almost up or B)the mob is stunned somehow, then its JoC time. a missed SoC proc will hurt your dps if you judge JoC too often.
when you are on bosses or high hp mobs, use JotC as the tank pulls. use this to gauge your threat..when judgement is off CD, its time to go to work.
at higher levels mix in some trinks and AW for more of a workout. but bottom line is yeah, you will be a 3 button chump, unless you choose to aid the party while you work. remember, for a mage to interupt a caster he must stop cast himself to use counterspell. for a pally, it just take 1 click without any downtime...you choose whats more important to you: your group or your dmg meter.
here we go:
-dont judge SotC on trash. mana + time != extra dps. when you get to higher lvls and mobs get more xp, this is situational.
-do judge SotC on bosses. party crit + extra spell dmg = win
-watch the party, you are support. drop a BoP, judge wis/light as needed, cleanse a fear, be ready to drop a heal should MH fail
-dont bless wisdom on yourself, thats why you took those 3 mana talents in Ret for...besides, thats why you hit up the mage for drinks
-important! use HoJ and repentence only for runners and spell interupts
-use HoW everytime its up. everytime.
-dont consecrate! maybe to aoe bugs or when you get to Kara with a pally tank.
ability rotation:
on trash, always open with SoC on and judge JoC in melee range 1st. this will make auto attack hit, proc SoC and get JoC all in the 1st sec. judgement is not on GCD so CS is instantly ready too. power up SoC back and autoattack + CS until either A)SoC is almost up or B)the mob is stunned somehow, then its JoC time. a missed SoC proc will hurt your dps if you judge JoC too often.
when you are on bosses or high hp mobs, use JotC as the tank pulls. use this to gauge your threat..when judgement is off CD, its time to go to work.
at higher levels mix in some trinks and AW for more of a workout. but bottom line is yeah, you will be a 3 button chump, unless you choose to aid the party while you work. remember, for a mage to interupt a caster he must stop cast himself to use counterspell. for a pally, it just take 1 click without any downtime...you choose whats more important to you: your group or your dmg meter.
Professor gwynhara wrote:
My point is that if you are playing a ret pally like a warrior (ie emphasizing primarily your white damage), obviously you arent going to have mana issues. I'm not talking about spamming consecrate, we all know that's silly. What I mean is that you will have more DPS if you judge SotC, if you judge SoC (even when not on stun, if you have fanaticism it does quite nice damage even outside of stuns), use crusader strike multiple times -- you will kill faster and do more damage, but this has a mana cost. Your system is more mana efficient simply because you are choosing not to use many abilities and rely on white damage, presumably having geared yourself that way as well. That's not a knock, but it's simply an issue of playstyle. If you were to use your abilities more, rest assured your DPS would be higher, but you would be using more mana -- that was my point.
ok, did you even read my post. yes i gave the rotation i use as a base for most fights but then i mentioned that i use CS whenever its up, and judge command whenever its up (i use a macro to automatically put SoC back on after its judged so i don't miss a SoC proc. so, yeah, if thats what you mean then i do us
yes i base a lot on white damage, because most abilities will be higher the more i boost my white damage. the more SoC and CS will hit for.
and yes i gear up kinda like a mix between warrior, rogue and hunter/dps shaman. kinda loking to correct that as soon as possible.
tommyguns, you say not wisdom? i'll have to try that. and why would you wait so long for judging SoC? since you get so much mana back wouldn't judging command be a good little extra bit of damage? i agree though that HoJ and repentance are for runners and casters. especially a healer trying to heal.
a ret pally will have to drink a max of 10 seconds, ever. kill 1st drink later, so in groups i recommend might or kings.
judging JoC is a grey area. SoC will hit harder than JoC, cuz SoC gets mostly melee stats whereas JoC gets mostly spell coefficient. so for a Ret to miss out on an SoC proc hurts alot, even if you using the macros.
test it yourself. try just auto attack w/ SoC. then try spam judging. last time i tested, spamming gave a negligable return with less character control(incl CDs and GCDs). a more controlled auto, SoC, CS rotation will get you similar dps with room to cast other goodies...including stunned JoC, HoW, AW, or something situational.
judging JoC is a grey area. SoC will hit harder than JoC, cuz SoC gets mostly melee stats whereas JoC gets mostly spell coefficient. so for a Ret to miss out on an SoC proc hurts alot, even if you using the macros.
test it yourself. try just auto attack w/ SoC. then try spam judging. last time i tested, spamming gave a negligable return with less character control(incl CDs and GCDs). a more controlled auto, SoC, CS rotation will get you similar dps with room to cast other goodies...including stunned JoC, HoW, AW, or something situational.
tommyguns wrote:
scorch x5, fireball x20, evo, fireball x20 :D
Psst. Your imp scorch debuff fell off 30 fireballs ago.
I also weave in other spells based on the situation(arcane spells when threat is an issue, for instance).
lol... I wasn't trying to say that playing a pally would be dull. ;-) And for *real* boredom, play a frost mage in raid.... frostbolt x 1,000, evocation, frostbolt x 1,000.
Thanks for the advice all.
Thanks for the advice all.
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