Xsarus wrote:
edit: I'm assuming that the 211 number for damage is the average from your weapon? In that case you haven't factored in the scope.
Hm? Telescopic Sharprifle damage: 139 - 259. Add 12 scope damage to each of the high end and the low end. [139 + 12] - [259 + 12] = 151 - 271. Average damage: [(151 + 271) / 2] = 211.
Xsarus wrote:
edit:hmmm, a difference. You interpreted the crits as being 230% while I was using 260%(1.3) the 1.3 increase is just what I grabbed from the sticky, but I never really though about it. you may be correct in this, which would push the switch rate higher.
It's quite easy to calculate if you think it through mannie. Misses are 0% damage. Hits are 100% damage. (physical) Crits are 200% damage. It's 100% plus 100% "critical strike damage bonus". Now, Mortal Shots increases just that by 30%. This means that you get 100% damage plus 130% crit bonus, landing you at 230%. Now, a misstake that many make, is to assume that this is a 30% increase to your crits. It's not. It's simple to calculate, this too: your crits were at 200% before. They're at 230% now. [230 / 200] = 1.15, ie. a 12% increase to your crit chance, but NOT the way blizzard incorporates crit (which in this case would be 18 + 15 = 33%), but a solid, old fashion 15% increase: 18 * 1.15 = 20.7 ≈ 21% crit.
Xsarus wrote:
Also are you trying to imply that Agility gems are never better? It's quite possible that you are at a point where AP is better, however I can guarantee that Agility gems do become better eventually, even if my actual number is under debate.
Since AGI is better for Multi-Shot at 520 AGI and 1 785 AP, I'm implying nothing of the sort. However, Multi-Shot is not the aspect of my DPS dominating (it's usually lower than 10%). When Agi starts to give more DPS to Auto Shot (~40%) or Steady Shot (~30%) we'll be talking switching to agi gems for me. I realize that hunters are far from warriors in these aspects, but crit doesn't become better than +str untill after 4k AP. Now, I might calculate the actual number in which agi > AP sometime, but I don't feel like it after just having written that math post up there...
Xsarus wrote:
I would also like you to look at my math and point out errors, because the method is fine.
The method isn't fine, referring to Tooltip DPS that is. It does NOTHING versus calculating the abilities you use. All it does, is calculate the DPS of which your Auto-Shot is at. I'll prove it to you right now.
The following values are mine:
Damage: 627 - 751.
Speed: 2.17.
DPS: 317.
The Formula for DPS is easy: [Weapon Damage / Weapon Speed)
[((627 + 751) / 2) / 2.17] = 317.51152073733 ≈ 317.
Again: all your method does is calculate the average DPS you'd be doing if you were only auto shooting. Actually, not even that. It doesn't take crit into calcualtion (you do though).
Xsarus wrote:
edit: Using a quick calculation, the 1.15 crit modifier pushes the switch number to 303, that with my arbitrary increase due to pet damage talents would make the switch number somewhere around 340.
I didn't take into consideration pet scaling with AP here, and despite that AP won by a fair margin. Also, note that my tooltip DPS is at 317, and AP is better than AGI for me. Unless you find a flaw in the maths I've done, it's safe to assume that all other answers below 317 are wrong. 340 could be it tbh, but I'm not up for checking atm...
Besides, if you have 330 TT DPS and you're going all-out on agi, you might have 550 agi (note: this is probably not true, but fictional numbers I make up) and... maybe 1.5 RAP. However, if you were to exchange 50 agi for 100 AP, you'd land at a little above 330 DPS (say, for the sake of argument, 333).
This makes these numbers even more ambigous and hard to calculate. Blizzard say they're the same in terms of gemming, but in the end they're not. Up to 'round about 2k AP, I'm sure AP is better for DPS (let's say your TT DPS is at 400 for this). After that Agi might take the upperhand, but if you were to exchange all your gems and enchants avalable to you, you might land at below 400 TT DPS. I'd say AGI isn't worth it untill exchanging every gem and enchant to an AGI equivalent (to AP) actually raises your TT DPS, or atleast has it unchanged.
Kompera wrote:
I hope you meant Scorpid Sting. :)
Nope.
Since 2.3 Serpent Sting is actually pulling it's weight in DPM (Damage Per Mana). It's a slightly better choice than Arcane Shot. Now, I havn't been raiding alot post-2.3 due to IRL and vent issues, but once I do get to raid I'll start to include SS in my shot rotation and see what it does for my DPS.
I realize Scorpid Sting is favoured for raiding, but either another hunter applies it (I'm rarely alone...) or the tank doesn't need it.
Xsarus wrote:
edit: for some empirical evidence my dps against dr. Boom did increase with the agi gems when I switched over, but that's not really a big enough sample size to be terribly meaningful.
If by this you mean that you had AP gear on, shot a while at dr. Boom, switched to AGI gear, and shot a bit more; it tells us absolutly nothing. Sorry, but assuming this is what you did, you could've had an average of 20% crit in the AGI fight, whereas your crit rate is really at 15% (again: fictional numbers) and you might have had a terrible luck with crits while doing the AP fight, hence giving very unreliable numbers.
To actually test this in practise, like you have done, you have to go beyond. Either, you do a fight and check the values afterwards. If your crit %age for that fight are exactly the same as in your tooltip, you've got a good starting point (however, this will rarely happend). Now all you've gotta do is switch gear and do anohter one of these perfect fights, where your TT crit is coherrent with the fight crit.
Since the unlikelyhood of this being the case, you would have to do around 100 fights, depleeting your mana each fight and get the average damage for all 100 fights (easy if you've got recap, don't know about DMG meters, since I don't use it anymore). THEN you switch to AGI gear and do 100 fights again. This is how you get a fair reading of your DPS.
Now, I've underline a part in the quote to let you understand that I'm aware you did not think of this as a fair comparison in DPS, but I still thought I'd point this out to people reading, since it might be missleading.
Edit: Spelling > me. And I'm sure I've missed somethings.
Edited, Nov 22nd 2007 8:38pm by Utarius