GEMS for sockets - ap / agi / crit / etc ???Follow

I finish posting in another thread, as the exchanges had exhausted the issues surrounding my initial question.

The "Top Hunters in WOW" thread has been discussing the gem issue, but it also had started as something else.

That thread had LOTS of people, on opposite sides of the AP/AGI debate, so it was hard to make sense of things.

Is there the possibility that socketing one of the other is better? Here's where I am at:


I am a Beastmaster Hunter, lv 70, in a fresh raiding guild.

At the moment, I have good blues and some - but not many - epics.

Here is that thread, continued...


@ Kompera

wowjutsu.com sounds good. I'll check it out.

Your thoughts on hit cap prompted me to check the worldofwarcraft.com forums, where I found this:


Hit Rating

-----

Kitsui:

Q u o t e:
what ive found about hit is the cap is 136 8.6% ppl prolly say 9% because thats what it was pre bc because it was whole percents. and as far as gems go for bm dps you should always socket Agi>crit>ap>hit. hit is the lowest dps increase for hunters. If you want hit for hunters then get it from the gear not the sockets.

Uhm.

You are so in reverse here.

Hit is the highest DPS increase.

The cap is 9%, this was proven RECENTLY, only months ago, post-BC. We thought for the longest time it was 8.6%.

Hit>Agi>Crit>AP.

-----

I think that I will socket in that order - starting with +hit - until, as mentioned, I reach the cap.


@ Xsarus

Also, is there any reason you have it as AP to Agility.

The guy that Kitsui (in quote) quoted agrees with you, but Kitsui seems not to.

From looking around, I'd have to say that it's about + hit but, after that, what would your order be?

---> 40 Agi = 22 Crit in terms of crit.
just in case (also looks like the FAQ needs to be updated to 9% instead of 8.6%)


Can someone post the conversion pets get from the hunter's AP?

Also, since i'm not sure, can anyone confirm that hit = useless in PvP?

Edited, Nov 21st 2007 12:21am by DukyFrodo

Hit in yellow sockets until hitcapped then i'd go for +8ap/4crit and later (~325 tooltip dps) +8 crit.

+16 AP in red sockets until ~300 tooltip dps, then switch to +8 agi and after ~340 tooltip dps switch to crit.

Blue sockets i'd just go for +8ap/2Mp5 or +4 agi/6sta if you're low on hp (think beneath 7k or under 7.5-8k for SSC/TK and on)

Whenever the socketbonus isnt worth it, just go for red gems.

That is, if i understood all the math correct ;P

edit: ofcourse, this doesnt count for SV where Agility is always king (from around 200 tooltip dps and up to something we probably wont be able to reach yet ;) )

Edited, Nov 21st 2007 2:40pm by Aethien

That's for dual wielders, who have an obscene miss rate. Nothing to do with us. don't worry.

Based on Aethiens posts about which gems to go for in each slot, I created a list of available gems. Basically something that is a quick glance reference to see what gems you need or are capable of getting.

Yellow Sockets:
1.+Hit until cap of 136

Rigid Amber [white]- +4 hit –vendor HFP

Rigid Golden Draenite [green] - +6 hit – Jewelcrafting (325)

Rigis Dawnstone [Blue] - +8 hit – Jewelcrafting (350)

Rigid Lionseye [purple] - +10 Hit – Jewelcrafting (375) Pattern:Hyjal Summit Drop

2.+AP/+Crit to 325 tooltip DPS

Wicked Flame Spessarite [green] - +6 AP/+3 Crit – Jewel Crafting (325)

Unstable Citrine [blue] - +8 AP/+4 Crit – Vendor BEM Event

Wicked Noble Topaz [blue] - +8 AP/+4 Crit – Jewelcrafting (350)

Deadly Fire Opal [purple] - +8 AP/+5 Crit – Drop – Arcatraz

Inscribed Ornate Topaz [purple] - +10 Ap/+5 Crit – PvP Reward – Champion’s Hall

Wicked Pyrestone [purple] - +10 AP/+5 Crit – Jewelcrafting (375) Pattern: Hyjal Summit Drop

3. +Crit

Smooth Amber [white] - +4 Crit – Vendor HFP

Smooth Golden Draenite [green] - +6 Crit – Jewelcrafting (325)

Smooth Dawnstone [blue] - +8 Crit – Jewelcrafting (350)

Smooth Ornate Dawnstone [purple] - +10 Crit – PVP Reward – Champion’s Hall

Smooth Lionseye [purple] - +10 Crit – Jewelcrafting (375) Pattern: Hyjal Summit Drop

Red Socket:
1. +AP to 300 tooltip DPS

Bright Tourmaline [white] - +8 AP – Vendor HFP

Bright Blood Garnet [green] - +12 AP – Jewelcrafting (305) –Vendor Netherstorm

Mighty Blood Garnet [blue] - +14 AP – PvP Reward – HFP HH Marks

Bright Living Ruby [blue] - +16 AP – Jewlcrafting (350)

Bold Ornate Ruby [purple] - +20 AP – PvP Reward – Champion’s Hall

Bright Crimson Spinel [purple]- +20 AP – Jewelcrafting (375) Pattern: Hyjal Summit Drop

Crimson Sun [purple] - +24 AP – Jewelcraftin (360) BoP

2. +Agi to 340 tooltip DPS

Delicate Tourmaline [white] - +4 Agi – Vendor HFP

Delicate Blood Garnet [green] - +6 Agi – Jewelcrafting (325)

Delicate Living Ruby [blue] - +8 Agi – Jewelcrafting (350)

Delicate Crimson Spinel [purple] - +10 Agi – Jewelcrafting (375) Pattern: Hyjal Summit Drop

3.+Crit

Smooth Amber [white] - +4 Crit – Vendor HFP

Smooth Golden Draenite [green] - +6 Crit – Jewelcrafting (325)

Smooth Dawnstone [blue] - +8 Crit – Jewelcrafting (350)

Smooth Ornate Dawnstone [purple] - +10 Crit – PVP Reward – Champion’s Hall

Smooth Lionseye [purple] - +10 Crit – Jewelcrafting (375) Pattern: Hyjal Summit Drop

Blue Socekt:
1.+Agi/+ Sta to 7k HP

Shifting Shadow Draenite [green] - +3 Agi/+4 Sta - Jewelcrafting (325)

Shifting Nightseye [blue] - +4 Agi/+6 Sta – Jewelcrafting (350)

Shifting Shadowsong Amythist [purple] - +5 Agi/+7 Sta – Jewelcrafting (375) Pattern: Hyjal Summit Drop

2.+AP/+MP-5

Infused Shadow Draenite [green] - +6 AP/+1 MP-5 – Jewelcrafting (325)

Infused Nightseye [blue] - +8 AP/+2 MP-5 – Jewelcrafting (350)

Infused Shadowsong Amethyst [purple] - +10 AP/+2 MP-5 – Jewelcrafting (375) Pattern: Hyjal Summit

Meta Socket:

Enigmatic Skyfire Diamond: +12 Crit +5% Snare and Root Resist. More Red than Yellow Gems

Swift Skyfire Diamond: +24 AP Minor Run Speed. 2 Yellow, 1 Red

Swift Windfire Diamond: +20 AP Minor Run Speed. 2 Yellow, 1 Red

Relentless Earthstorm Diamond: +12 Agi +3% Crit. 2 Red, 2 Yellow, 2 Blue

Potent Unstable Diamon: +24 AP 5% Stun Resist. More Blue than Yellow

I know it says places places like Champion's hall, and HH marks, sorry about that, I'm aliance and originally put it together for my personal use, but I figured I would copy and past it here for everyone to use if they needed it. I'm sure the PvP and Vendors have a horde equivalent.



Edited, Nov 21st 2007 2:21pm by SynnTastic

You just quoted the answer.

Thanks a LOT for all of that gem info, though!

That's excellent!

That's just the guide to all gems. Mine was just a list of gems that would benefit hunters, and how to get them. And it was based on Aethiens Post on what type of stats they should go for per socket at certain points in their gear progression. So they are slightly different.

Edit: In response to your edit. (lol) yeah I should put some Bold and underlined, perhaps some italics and some outline points in there, but I wrote that out on MS Word, and just copied and pasted from there, the forum box isn't very MS Word friendly, and I just quick fixed the things that were messed up, and posted since Im at work, I'll change it though to clean it up later, but on word it's nicely spaced out, tabed and much easier to read lol.

Edit 2: Went ahead and cleaned it up a bit. It's a lot easier to read and scan through now, IMO. It's all I can do for now though, so it will have to do.

Edit 3: lol this is getting crazy. I wonder if Aethien should include this in his Pre-raid Gear, Tips, and tricks. I mean he has the enchants list for each piece of gear, and socket gems is basically the only thing he didn't cover too in depth, just an idea.



Edited, Nov 21st 2007 2:21pm by SynnTastic

Now, I'm not sure I agree with this "tooltip" way of calculating DPS. If this were to be true all you'd do a fight is auto-shot-AFK. Real DPS is measured in abilities a skill, but since skill is a very hard factor to calculate, we'll assume my skill (note that that's a neutral statement) and focus more on the abilities.

What abilities do I use in raids?

* Auto-Shot (duh...).
* Steady Shot.
* Multi-Shot.
* Arcane Shot.
* Serpent Sting.
* Kill Command (this counts as one of my pet's abilities though).

That honestly summs it up... I might've forgetten something obvious though. Now, my tooltip DPS is 317, although I'm geared and gemmed and enchanted heavily towards AP rather than AGI. Now, I'll use my gear example for this:

Gun:

151 - 271 (+12 dmg scope), 3.00 speed.

AP:

1785, 127.5 DPS, 382.5 damage added per ability using 3.0 speed multiplyer.

Crit:

18.37%, 5/5 in Mortal Shots, a total increase of 21% to total DPS.
(crits are 200% damage, increase that to 230%, 230 / 200 = 1.15, 15% increase to your crit chance, but not the way blizz uses %. 18.37 * 1.15 = 21.1255 ≈ 21%).



Let's look at all the formulas for these shots then!

* Auto-Shot:

[(Weapon Damage + (RAP * Weapon Speed / 14)) * Crit Multiplyer]
or:
[(211 + (1 785 * 3 / 14)) * 1.21]

= 718.135, or 718 damage.

* Steady Shot:

[Damage Percentage Bonus * Ranged Weapon Specialization * (150 + Weapon Damage / Weapon Speed * 2.8 + 0.2 * RAP + [Dazed: 175])]

It's not very well written (extracted from WoWwiki) since whoever wrote it didn't take into account that multiplyers have higher priority than adders... Now, as you can see there are also several parts of this equation we can exclude. After this, it will simply look like (or what I make of it, taking into account mathematical priorities, and crit):

[((150 + Weapon Damage / Weapon Speed * 2.8) + (0.2 * RAP)) * Crit Multiplyer]
or:
[((150 + 211 / 3 * 2.8) + (0.2 * 1 785)) * 1.21]

= 851.75933333333, or 852 damage.

* Multi-Shot:

[(Weapon Damage + (RAP * 2.8 / 14) + 205) * Crit Multiplyer]
or:
[(211 + (1 785 * 2.8 / 14) + 205) * 1.21]

= 935.33, or 935 damage.

* Arcane Shot:

[(273 + (RAP * 0.2)) * Crit Multiplyer]
or:
[(273 + (1 785 * 0.2)) * 1.21]

= 762.3, or 762 damage.

* Serpent Sting:

[660 + (RAP * 0.1)]
or:
[660 + (1 785 * 0.1)]

= 838.5, or 839 damage.



Now, in terms of socketing, 2 AP = 1 AGI = 1 crit rating.

I can't be ***** playing around with small numbers, so the 10x gem example seems tempting. An increase each of 120 AP, 60 AGI or 60 crit rating.

Quite simply; my stats would be the following in each case:

+120 AP: 1 905 AP, 21% crit.

+60 AGI: 1 845 AP, 23% crit.

+60 CR: 1785 AP, 24% crit.



Now, we use the same formulas, but put in the new numbers. We'll start with the +120 AP case.

Auto-Shot:

[(211+ (1 905 * 3 / 14)) * 1.21]
= 749,24928571429, or 749 damage. An increase of 31 damage.

Steady Shot:

[((150 + 211 / 3 * 2.8) + (0.2 * 1 905)) * 1.21]
= 880.79933333332, or 881 damage. An increase of 29 damage.

Multi-Shot:

[(211 + (1 905 * 2.8 / 14) + 205) * 1.21]
= 964.37, or 964 damage. An increase of 29 damage.

Arcane Shot:

[(273 + (1 905 * 0.2)) * 1.21]
= 791.34, or 791 damage. An increase of 29 damage.

Serpent Sting:

An increase of 12 damage.


The +60 AGI case:

Auto-Shot:

[(211 + (1 845 * 3 / 14)) * 1.23]
= 745.81928571428, or 746 damage. An increase of 28 damage.

Steady Shot:
[((150 + 211 / 3 * 2.8) + (0.2 * 1 845)) * 1.23]
= 880.59799999998, or 881 damage. An increase of 29 damage.

Multi-Shot:
[(211 + (1 845 * 2.8 / 14) + 205) * 1.23]
= 965.55, or 966 damage. An increase of 30 damage.

Arcane Shot:
[(273 + (1 845 * 0.2)) * 1.23]
= 789.66, or 790 damage. An increase of 27.

Serpent Sting:
[660 + (1845 * 0.1)]
= 844.5, or 845 damage. An increase of 6 damage.


The +60 CR case:

Auto-Shot:

[(211 + (1 785 * 3 / 14)) * 1.24]
= 735.94, or 736 damage.

Steady Shot:

[((150 + 211 / 3 * 2.8) + (0.2 * 1 785)) * 1.24]
= 872.87733333332, or 873 damage. An increase of 21 damage.

Multi-Shot:

[(211 + (1 785 * 2.8 / 14) + 205) * 1.24]
= 958.52, or 959 damage. An increase of 23 damage.

Arcane Shot:

[(273 + (1 785 * 0.2)) * 1.24]
= 781.2, or 781 damage. An increase of 18 damage.


So, the +AP case was better in every aspect except Multi-Shot, which regularly isn't even 10% of my total DPS done.

***** CONCLUTION!!! *****

If +120 AP is better than +60 agi in every case but one, how can agi be better for you at over 300 tooltip DPS?

Stop making these unfinished calculations around DPS and such. They're almost never accurate. You have to awknowlage that DPS is more than what's on the paper. If you can't calculate skill, at least take the time to calculate the abilities you use. I know it's not a fast way to do it, but it's a hell of alot more accurate.

I hope you meant Scorpid Sting. :)

But I agree with your premise that tooltip DPS is not an accurate means to measure DPS, and should not be used when deciding if AP or AGI is the way to go. I don't have my calculations handy, but I believe that AP is the way to go for BM and MM Hunters until a very high AP is achieved. Higher than a fully Kara equipped Hunter is capable of achieving. Once in 25 person raids the buffs push the hunter past this level, and so once you're regularly raiding Gruul/SSC etc I'd suggest swapping the AP gems for AGI, unless your Heroic/Kara performance remains critical to you.

It's possible for a 10 person buff level to push the Hunter past this point, but my experience has been that the class mix is quite variable in 10 person raids and so the buffs received are similarly a mixed batch. I wouldn't swap my 50G each gems out for such a variable.

here is something for you to look at. This is from the elitist jerks website, and I believe is quite comprehensive. When I replaced all my agility gems with AP gems my damage went down. (Now it only went down very slightly which reflects my math perfectly as I am right on the edge of the cutoff, with the new 1.15 crit value used)

feel free to look at my armory(US), I'm the only Xsarus there is.

Hm? Telescopic Sharprifle damage: 139 - 259. Add 12 scope damage to each of the high end and the low end. [139 + 12] - [259 + 12] = 151 - 271. Average damage: [(151 + 271) / 2] = 211.


It's quite easy to calculate if you think it through mannie. Misses are 0% damage. Hits are 100% damage. (physical) Crits are 200% damage. It's 100% plus 100% "critical strike damage bonus". Now, Mortal Shots increases just that by 30%. This means that you get 100% damage plus 130% crit bonus, landing you at 230%. Now, a misstake that many make, is to assume that this is a 30% increase to your crits. It's not. It's simple to calculate, this too: your crits were at 200% before. They're at 230% now. [230 / 200] = 1.15, ie. a 12% increase to your crit chance, but NOT the way blizzard incorporates crit (which in this case would be 18 + 15 = 33%), but a solid, old fashion 15% increase: 18 * 1.15 = 20.7 ≈ 21% crit.


Since AGI is better for Multi-Shot at 520 AGI and 1 785 AP, I'm implying nothing of the sort. However, Multi-Shot is not the aspect of my DPS dominating (it's usually lower than 10%). When Agi starts to give more DPS to Auto Shot (~40%) or Steady Shot (~30%) we'll be talking switching to agi gems for me. I realize that hunters are far from warriors in these aspects, but crit doesn't become better than +str untill after 4k AP. Now, I might calculate the actual number in which agi > AP sometime, but I don't feel like it after just having written that math post up there...


The method isn't fine, referring to Tooltip DPS that is. It does NOTHING versus calculating the abilities you use. All it does, is calculate the DPS of which your Auto-Shot is at. I'll prove it to you right now.
The following values are mine:
Damage: 627 - 751.
Speed: 2.17.
DPS: 317.

The Formula for DPS is easy: [Weapon Damage / Weapon Speed)

[((627 + 751) / 2) / 2.17] = 317.51152073733 ≈ 317.

Again: all your method does is calculate the average DPS you'd be doing if you were only auto shooting. Actually, not even that. It doesn't take crit into calcualtion (you do though).


I didn't take into consideration pet scaling with AP here, and despite that AP won by a fair margin. Also, note that my tooltip DPS is at 317, and AP is better than AGI for me. Unless you find a flaw in the maths I've done, it's safe to assume that all other answers below 317 are wrong. 340 could be it tbh, but I'm not up for checking atm...

Besides, if you have 330 TT DPS and you're going all-out on agi, you might have 550 agi (note: this is probably not true, but fictional numbers I make up) and... maybe 1.5 RAP. However, if you were to exchange 50 agi for 100 AP, you'd land at a little above 330 DPS (say, for the sake of argument, 333).

This makes these numbers even more ambigous and hard to calculate. Blizzard say they're the same in terms of gemming, but in the end they're not. Up to 'round about 2k AP, I'm sure AP is better for DPS (let's say your TT DPS is at 400 for this). After that Agi might take the upperhand, but if you were to exchange all your gems and enchants avalable to you, you might land at below 400 TT DPS. I'd say AGI isn't worth it untill exchanging every gem and enchant to an AGI equivalent (to AP) actually raises your TT DPS, or atleast has it unchanged.


Nope.

Since 2.3 Serpent Sting is actually pulling it's weight in DPM (Damage Per Mana). It's a slightly better choice than Arcane Shot. Now, I havn't been raiding alot post-2.3 due to IRL and vent issues, but once I do get to raid I'll start to include SS in my shot rotation and see what it does for my DPS.

I realize Scorpid Sting is favoured for raiding, but either another hunter applies it (I'm rarely alone...) or the tank doesn't need it.



If by this you mean that you had AP gear on, shot a while at dr. Boom, switched to AGI gear, and shot a bit more; it tells us absolutly nothing. Sorry, but assuming this is what you did, you could've had an average of 20% crit in the AGI fight, whereas your crit rate is really at 15% (again: fictional numbers) and you might have had a terrible luck with crits while doing the AP fight, hence giving very unreliable numbers.

To actually test this in practise, like you have done, you have to go beyond. Either, you do a fight and check the values afterwards. If your crit %age for that fight are exactly the same as in your tooltip, you've got a good starting point (however, this will rarely happend). Now all you've gotta do is switch gear and do anohter one of these perfect fights, where your TT crit is coherrent with the fight crit.

Since the unlikelyhood of this being the case, you would have to do around 100 fights, depleeting your mana each fight and get the average damage for all 100 fights (easy if you've got recap, don't know about DMG meters, since I don't use it anymore). THEN you switch to AGI gear and do 100 fights again. This is how you get a fair reading of your DPS.

Now, I've underline a part in the quote to let you understand that I'm aware you did not think of this as a fair comparison in DPS, but I still thought I'd point this out to people reading, since it might be missleading.

Edit: Spelling > me. And I'm sure I've missed somethings.

Edited, Nov 22nd 2007 8:38pm by Utarius

Well, now what is it?
For me Cheeky's spreadsheet doesnt work so i cant check on there.
But i do want to know exactly when and where Agi becomes better then AP... (and when crit becomes better)

Cheeky's has showed me an increase in gemming/enchanting Agi Vs AP since very close to 300 TT.

Holy crap sorry bumping old thread.

I saw the link in the another thread and got caught up in reading.

Edited, Feb 2nd 2008 11:54pm by Ieatrocks