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Growl's threat...Follow

#1 Nov 20 2007 at 8:15 PM Rating: Excellent
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Well, I just decided to tame a raptor for no real reason. I liked the red Daggermaw raptors in Blade's Edge, said "what the hell" and tamed the beastie right there.

Now here's something funny. My previous pet's (lvl 70 Cat) growl generated about 1k threat per growl (this is Rank 8 of course). But my new raptor's growl is only rank 7 (being only lvl 67 at the moment, and rank 8 growl requiring a lvl 70 pet). What I find strange is that the threat generated by my raptor's growl is a whopping 2.2k!

I used the Omen Threat meter to confirm this.

Now, my new pet has a loyalty lvl of 1, I havn't been able to teach him any other skills since i have no training points yet. But how is it that he can generate so much more threat with a lower lvl growl compared to my old cat? Especially without any DPS increasing buffs from training? (Claw, Bite, Cobra Reflexes, and such).

Has this been happening to any other hunters or is this a bug I'm experiencing?
#2 Nov 20 2007 at 8:19 PM Rating: Good
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231 posts
I wouldn't expect such a big difference and don't even know if this applies, but lower level characters generate more threat per damage (or healing), so it could work the same way with taunts (not the taunt level, but the pet level).

I'll be checking back in here to see what others say.
#3 Nov 22 2007 at 10:37 PM Rating: Decent
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231 posts
bump
#4 Nov 22 2007 at 11:04 PM Rating: Decent
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1,519 posts
Did you make sure that you had all the same buffs when you tested that? Growl scales with AP, so if you didn't have aspect of the hawk on for one pet, or ate a ravager dog or another, you'd come up with differences.
#5 Nov 24 2007 at 3:56 PM Rating: Decent
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88 posts
I have noticed the same thing as well while leving a pet. At lvl 69 my boar with growl, gore and charge would do about 5k threat. After it hit lvl 70 and I trained the highes level growl, it went down to 4k threat.
#6 Nov 24 2007 at 10:35 PM Rating: Decent
I think Growl 8 sacrifices threat generated for reduced chance of a resist compared to Growl 7.
#7 Nov 24 2007 at 11:45 PM Rating: Decent
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231 posts
that sucks. (well, it's good, but not ideal)
#8 Dec 08 2007 at 8:45 PM Rating: Decent
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1,519 posts
I just tamed a ravager and had to come back and be amazed.

My new level 63 ravager with level 1 loyalty does just as much damage as my level 70 cat, and I CAN'T pull aggro off of it. It generates threat twice as fast. If a level 70 cat can't generate as much threat as a level 63 ravager, something is broken.
#9 Dec 09 2007 at 5:53 AM Rating: Decent
Well, broken or not, the fact remains that my Humar just won't hold aggro. Of course, the fact that I am Survival with an AP - Crit ratio that really doesn't help his Growl much is nasty to begin with. If there is some sacrifice of threat to reduce resists, it really doesn't suit me. I'd rather see a couple of mobs get resisted Growl so I know this guy is a kited mob, than have to use nothing but autoshots on every single mob.

Trying to enable both Growl, Bite and Claw is scary at best. It will help Humar holding aggro if I get all those crits, but if I don't crit it turns out I still do enough tps for his Claw to seriously affect his own tps.

I am close to respeccing Beastmastery just because of this...

Edit: Respeccing, not rerolling...

Edited, Dec 9th 2007 8:53am by NorthAI
#10 Dec 09 2007 at 6:16 AM Rating: Decent
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2,717 posts
North, that's just because survival sucks for solo grinding. It's good in other places, but solo grinding as a SV hunter is like healing as a shadow priest.
#11 Dec 09 2007 at 6:27 AM Rating: Decent
skribs wrote:
North, that's just because survival sucks for solo grinding. It's good in other places, but solo grinding as a SV hunter is like healing as a shadow priest.
You don't say? Huh, I have been reading these boards for years now, and somehow managed to miss that. I mean, quite amazing since it's been gone over in almost every talent build thread, and every single survival thread.

Seriously though, I am well aware of the problems with Survival for soloing. But when I actually manage to do more tps than my pet when I do nothing but autoshoot, there's something wrong with the mechanics at play here. Of course, that doesn't happen on all mobs, but sometimes even just farming Warp Flesh is a chore.
#12 Dec 09 2007 at 8:53 AM Rating: Decent
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1,594 posts
Even as a BM I do more TPS with auto-shot than my boar does.

The only thing that keeps him in front of me is that massive threat spike from charge->growl. Oh yeah, like a 62 hunter is going to jump over 4k threat in the first half-second of combat. I have to spam distracting, or the battle has to last longer than a minute, to steal aggro.

Probably a bad idea, to try to give advice to you, but if you're just solo-farming, why don't you get some threat reducing equipment? The sporereggar cape, some of the potions from the same guy, the hypnotist's watch.. I dunno about you, but I'd rather get a few easy items than go for a full respec just to farm.

Edited, Dec 9th 2007 11:58am by Ehcks
#13 Dec 09 2007 at 10:35 AM Rating: Decent
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365 posts
Quote:
Well, broken or not, the fact remains that my Humar just won't hold aggro. Of course, the fact that I am Survival with an AP - Crit ratio that really doesn't help his Growl much is nasty to begin with. If there is some sacrifice of threat to reduce resists, it really doesn't suit me. I'd rather see a couple of mobs get resisted Growl so I know this guy is a kited mob, than have to use nothing but autoshots on every single mob.

Trying to enable both Growl, Bite and Claw is scary at best. It will help Humar holding aggro if I get all those crits, but if I don't crit it turns out I still do enough tps for his Claw to seriously affect his own tps.

I am close to respeccing Beastmastery just because of this...

Edit: Respeccing, not rerolling...


While farming cobra scales in nagrand, I tested threat of Growl and Growl + Claw + Gore (Ravager).
Growl + Claw + Gore held the best aggro, due to although my crits caused more aggro on me but gave my pet more energy to do his thing. For SV soloing, enable all your pets dps + aggro skills, and begin firing once your pet runs out of energy. Doing this you will kill your target at your pet or as it comes at you.
#14 Dec 09 2007 at 11:40 AM Rating: Decent
Yes, it will allow him to hold aggro if I crit enough. Even with high crit (I am near 30% unbuffed) I can't count on my crit providing enough focus for Claw in addition to Growl. And if I don't have Claw active and crit, Growl isn't enough to hold aggro.

I know this is expected, and known. But it is a serious problem at times.
#15 Dec 10 2007 at 12:09 AM Rating: Decent
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1,519 posts
I recently went from MM to BM for raiding, and even as BM, my cat couldn't hold aggro even autoshotting. My cat did more damage, but growl generated less threat due to my reduced AP, and thanks to my increased attack speed and identical crit rating, I could pull aggro off her FAST.

I think once I get my ravager up to level 70, I'm going to untrain her to start with Growl 1 and see which level growl generates the most threat.

Edit:

I guess we can't complain too much here, though. Having a pet that holds aggro 100% of the time is easy-mode. I'm just frustrated about the mechanics. I don't mind being able to pull threat of my pet when I spam my skills, but a single crit shouldn't generate more threat than growl.

Edited, Dec 10th 2007 3:15am by ProjectMidnight
#16 Dec 10 2007 at 12:21 AM Rating: Decent
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1,235 posts
ProjectMidnight wrote:
I think once I get my ravager up to level 70, I'm going to untrain her to start with Growl 1 and see which level growl generates the most threat.

Please keep us updated on this experiment!
#17 Dec 10 2007 at 1:23 AM Rating: Good
NorthAI the Hand wrote:
Yes, it will allow him to hold aggro if I crit enough. Even with high crit (I am near 30% unbuffed) I can't count on my crit providing enough focus for Claw in addition to Growl. And if I don't have Claw active and crit, Growl isn't enough to hold aggro.

I know this is expected, and known. But it is a serious problem at times.


As I'm survival for some months now I have encountered the same problem. But basically I have stopped caring about that, I just adjusted my playstyle.
As my pet is unable to hold aggro and I'm a rather impatient man (don't want to just autoshot and give my pet a 5 second headstart just to manage aggro) I changed from caring about aggro, to just unload hell upon those mobs.

Just accept that as a SV hunter, your pet is not a decent tank anymore

My normal routine against any non-elite up to level 70 is:
1) Send pet in
2) Cast steady/auto/multi-shot. (normally before the pet is even there)
3) While the mob is on his way towards me fire 1-2 shots
4) 1 melee-hit
Usually the mob is already dead at point 3 or 4 (depending on crit). If he has still some HP left.
5) wingclip
6) run some steps, auto/arcane

My pet is basically there to give me one or two free shots before the mob runs towards me, and of course to do damage.

With AotV up I can do this for a very long time without running oom. With AotH however this drains your mana pool a lot faster than just steady/auto.

Things get a little more complicated when fighting elite mobs (Those skettis tree elementals anyone?).

There it is a mixture of pet tanking and kiting. Not very hard to kill those mobs but a lot more active than with my old MM spec.
#18 Dec 10 2007 at 2:11 AM Rating: Decent
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231 posts
I played BM from 10-70 and for a good 6 months after i hit level-cap and was enjoying the quests/5-mans/pvp... everything actually. I found it much easier to just intimidate right off the bat to hold aggro, or to throw it in while the mob was running at me just so i could laugh at him from 10 yrds away instead of 38 (or whatever the max is)... Held aggro just fine and it doing an easy auto-steady routine was fine by me (i read the quest scripts to keep myself entertained).

Turned SV and it's a whole new game. Everything is like pvp... dps them before they get to me or else im gonna be kiting and keeping my jump-shot skills up to par... to tell you the truth, i didn't bother learning jump-shot till i turned SV.. Q or E and doing fat circles was good enough in all situations. I dont bother teaching new pets growl, and usually turn it off so they can help me dps. I even forget to send the pretty little kitty before i start seeing those nice big 4-digit whites and yellows. Not a problem.. Just imagine the pet is a succubus...

Side note 1: fighting 3-4 71 mobs in skettis is sooooo much fun. i usually grab 2 arrakoa (or whatever) and just wait for a giant bird to swoop down on my trap.

Side note 2: Throwing a wyvern on a hunter that thinks they are safe 40 yrds away from the fight is fun. And throwing up deterence and sticking close to a Red-BM hunter (wasting their precious "I WIN" button) is twice as fun, especially since i can trap/sting/bandage and then take them out... So much more active and annoying to other hunters. I used to think i was invincible as a BM, and now i see how wrong i was.. just didnt play the experienced players enough.
#19 Dec 10 2007 at 3:14 AM Rating: Decent
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1,519 posts
Rykhorne wrote:
ProjectMidnight wrote:
I think once I get my ravager up to level 70, I'm going to untrain her to start with Growl 1 and see which level growl generates the most threat.

Please keep us updated on this experiment!



Come to think of it, the experiment would work with a cat, too. Cats and Ravagers have the same base stats. The only thing that makes a Ravager better than a cat is Gore.

I'm right smack dab in the middle of my finals for school and wouldnt be able to do any experiments until after thursday. Anyone with a level 70 cat or ravager and Omen could do this experiment. Just make sure to not train any other talents.

It would be interesting to do it with both pets, too. If the ravager (for some reason) does more TPS than an identical cat, then something is wrong.
#20 Dec 10 2007 at 8:12 AM Rating: Decent
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97 posts
boar = win for soloing :)
#21 Dec 10 2007 at 10:21 AM Rating: Decent
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747 posts
I have been BM for since lvl 10 and have never had problems with my pet keeping aggro until very recently.

I've noticed that as I've become better geared from running Kara, my AP and crit and all that goes up making me DPS machine in raids, but because I am putting up numbers so much bigger than before my cat can't hold aggro anymore even with just a simple auto/steady rotation.

I think it al boils down to the fact that the Hunters damage ramps up a lot faster with AP than the pets growl, making it harder and harder for your pet to keep threat as you get more purple gear.

the mechanic is broken and needs to be looked at again, pets are just getting left behind way to fast as you ramp up your gear.
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