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Main hand, off handFollow

#1 Nov 20 2007 at 12:37 PM Rating: Good
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I'm having a little trouble understanding where speed falls in the list of priorities when deciding which hand to put a weapon in. Both the sticky here and Osiris' guide (See! I can read it! My tiny brain is just incapable of understanding it!) emphasize the importance of speed in the off hand weapon, but I'm assuming that's not at the expense of putting the better overall weapon in my main hand, right?

My rogue is new (obviously) and very low level (so yeah, it doesn't matter at this point, but if I don't learn the basic principles now I will suck later), so it's not like I have a ton of weapon choices and most of what I'm picking up is one-hand so I could put it in either. So, here's what I've been doing if I have two swords:

- Put the higher average DPS weapon in my main hand, regardless of other stats, and even if that means I have a slower weapon in my off hand than my main hand.
- If average DPS is equal, put the higher DPS range/slower weapon in the main hand, regardless of other stats.

Yes? No? I've never played a dual wielding class so this is all new to me.

(Edited for typos)

Edited, Nov 20th 2007 3:39pm by teacake
#2 Nov 20 2007 at 12:54 PM Rating: Good
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Keep the fast weapon in OH. By fast, i mean you want to keep your OH below 1.6.

That's all you focus on for OH. Speed and DPS. High DPS, high speed.



Your main hand is all about damage range, and slow speeds. You want the max damage range(slowest) in your mainhand.


So, for example, if you had two weapons. Sword A is 108-201 damage range, 103.0 dps, and speed of 1.5. Sword B is 189-285 damage range, 91.0 dps and speed of 2.6,


While the dps is MUCH lower, you want the 2.6 in your main hand. Reason being, the top end damage is much better on it.

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#3 Nov 20 2007 at 1:02 PM Rating: Good
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Holy fast and simple answer. Thanks so much. And I'd heard you guys over here were, like, rilly mean.
#4 Nov 20 2007 at 1:04 PM Rating: Good
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The whole reason to have a fast offhand is to proc poisons. That's really it. So to better answer your question(s):

Mainhand- sword can be as slow as you want (probably 2.5+) as long as it has a high top end amount of damage. The reason a slower mainhand sword is preferable to rogues is because of the large number of instant mainhand attacks. More on that in a moment.

Offhand- sword should ideally be around 1.5 speed, but as high as 1.8 (absolute max). No sword that's that fast is going to hit extremely hard (with the exception of Warblades). Offhand swords are for adding maybe 1/4-1/3 of white damage and for poisoning the @*(& out of your target.

So WoW's calculation of DPS (under your character menu) is going be radically different from your actual dps. Let's say 1 "round" of combat is 3 seconds.

In 3 seconds, your mainhand sword will strike once and your offhand twice (assuming a 2.5 MH and 1.5 OH). However, during those three seconds, in addition to the normal strikes, you also got to Sinister Strike twice with your MH sword which, because it has a high top-end of damage, is going to do lots and lots of damage.

This is just a simple example, not even taking into account the poisons (whichever you chose to use) on your swords, other talents (slice and dice, blade flurry, agression) that can put your REAL DPS through the roof (even though your character window will still display the same DPS).

Make sense?
#5 Nov 20 2007 at 1:07 PM Rating: Decent
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Damn you MyTeddy for stealing my answer you...you answer-stealer you! and in a much more concise manner too...jerk...

Oh- and to the OP- we are mean. We just aren't mean (typically) to people who ask questions in a reasonable manner, use grammar and display even a minimal amount of intelligence.
#6 Nov 20 2007 at 1:10 PM Rating: Decent
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To clarify a bit more on what MyTeddy is saying:

Rogue abilities are instant and based on MH weapon damage range. So Backstab: Backstab the target, causing 150% weapon damage plus 15 to the target. Must be behind the target. Requires a dagger in the main hand. Awards 1 combo points.

If you backstab with the faster weapon that MyTeddy offered (108-201) then your top end damage is about 316. If you have the slower, harder hitting in your MH (189-285) then you are dishing out 443 on the top end. So you want the higher numbers on your main hand since that is what your abilities pull from.

Also, a faster off hand is hitting more often, so it will help with poison procs.

Someone please just call me a ****** and correct my math if it is wrong. I might not be good with numbers, but I think I have the concept down...
#7 Nov 20 2007 at 1:19 PM Rating: Good
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KnifeInUrEye wrote:
Oh- and to the OP- we are mean. We just aren't mean (typically) to people who ask questions in a reasonable manner, use grammar and display even a minimal amount of intelligence.


Oooh so the key to learning some fun new flames would be to use the word "rouge." Got it.

This really clears things up for me guys, thanks for taking the time on a basic question you've no doubt answered, um, a time or two before.
#8 Nov 20 2007 at 2:03 PM Rating: Decent
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AtrophyGFour wrote:


Someone please just call me a ****** and correct my math if it is wrong. I might not be good with numbers, but I think I have the concept down...


Concept still applies.



Quote:
Damn you MyTeddy for stealing my answer you...you answer-stealer you! and in a much more concise manner too...jerk...


NO U
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#9 Nov 20 2007 at 2:31 PM Rating: Decent
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And thank you, Teacake, for asking the question I was too afraid to for fear of flaming!
#10 Nov 20 2007 at 2:34 PM Rating: Decent
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rinnuald wrote:
And thank you, Teacake, for asking the question I was too afraid to for fear of flaming!



We aren't that bad!
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#11 Nov 20 2007 at 4:59 PM Rating: Decent
i'm not gonna lie you guys are pretty mean. but anyway, i thought the point of a fast offhand was interrupt casters. and if it is to apply posions, what's the purpose of shiv?

Edited, Nov 21st 2007 1:00am by pwnorama
#12 Nov 20 2007 at 5:00 PM Rating: Decent
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pwnorama wrote:
i'm not gonna lie you guys are pretty mean. but anyway, i thought the point of a fast offhand was interrupt casters. and if it is to apply posions, what's the purpose of shiv?

Edited, Nov 21st 2007 1:00am by pwnorama


Shiv costs energy, and a global cooldown better spent on SS.
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#13 Nov 21 2007 at 3:05 AM Rating: Decent
I would like to push the OP question a bit farther:

As I understand all instant attacks were normalized some time ago. Therefore the speed of MH weapon should not matter. Nor should the top-end damage matter - only the DPS.
(there is probably the exception of sword spec extra attack and Riposte, which are not normalized?)

Is this correct?

I am actually asking because my gut feeling is that it is not really so. I have tried to use 2.0 speed mace in MH once (with combat spec), and I would swear my DPS made a big dive. I do not see any explanation why it would be like that with the normalization in place.
So I try to stick to slow MH now, but I am not exactly sure if I am deceiving myself of not.
#14 Nov 21 2007 at 4:56 AM Rating: Good
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Wytryszek wrote:
As I understand all instant attacks were normalized some time ago. Therefore the speed of MH weapon should not matter. Nor should the top-end damage matter - only the DPS.
Is this correct?


No.

The speed is normalized, but not the damage.
So indeed the speed doesn't matter anymore for instant MH-attacks, but the damage range does. And with 2 weapons with the same DPS, the slower one has the higher damage range.
#15 Nov 21 2007 at 4:59 AM Rating: Decent
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The slow main hand concept applies because typically a slower weapon is going to hit harder. If the faster weapon has the higher top end damage than that should be the one that goes in the main hand (to my understanding) to make sure your instant attacks are hitting as hard as possible.

Two weapons of equal level are going to have the slower=harder concept. If you have a gap between item levels, it is possible that the higher level faster weapon is going to hit harder than the lower level slow weapon.

And yes, a faster weapon is going to slow casting down because it is hitting more often to knock that bar back as much as possible, but you also get more poison procs because more hits = more chances. Shiv is good for that case where they are most certainly going to run and you haven't applied crippling, or perhaps after a cheap shot that didn't apply poison in a mutilate build.
#16 Nov 21 2007 at 6:03 AM Rating: Decent
Oh, wait - you are saying that the normalized weapon speed is only used for calculating the AP-derived part of the damage, right?
average_normalized_damage = weapon_DPS * weapon_speed + AP/14 * normalized_speed

Damn, I think I got confused by Blizz pep talk into believing both parts of the formula were normalized. Shame on me.
But good I got that clarified. One "mystery" explained.

Edited, Nov 21st 2007 3:11pm by Wytryszek
#17 Nov 21 2007 at 6:14 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
We aren't that bad!


Yes we are and you know we are. We are rogues. There's a reason.

This guy asked a legit question and he/she asked it intelligently enough. For that, he/she doesn't get flamed. I will say though, as the others have, we ARE really THAT bad.

Theo, and I believe it's sig'ed somewhere, implied that subtlety was like slamming your ***** in a door (more eloquently)

Demea digs up that noob pwning sheet all the time which shuts down many an imbecile.

You, Teddy, while I can't think of a direct example, have had me roll off my chair IN THE OFFICE WHERE I "WORK" because of your flames.

We call people out on spelling, grammar, rEdiculous grasp of the English language, asking dumb questions, not reading stickies, all sorts of pointless crap.

Is it our (and I use "our" freely, despite barely posting on Alla) job to answer questions? Not at all. But, vicariously, it's also not our job to flame dumb questions, grammatical abortions of English, noobs, spelling errors or anything of the like.

We really are THAT bad and I think we should stop. I've done my small share. It's dumb- you've had a bad day at work and want to target someone to make yourself feel better. You're drunk and you deem someone unworthy of your time so you (completely rationally of course) take the time to flame them into oblivion.

People are genuinely afraid to post here and ask questions for fear of being flamed. Yes, read the stickies, but for the love of all- if you still have a question please ask it. In my limited capacity, I at least will do my best to answer it.
#18 Nov 21 2007 at 6:38 AM Rating: Good
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Wytryszek wrote:
Oh, wait - you are saying that the normalized weapon speed is only used for calculating the AP-derived part of the damage, right?
average_normalized_damage = weapon_DPS * weapon_speed + AP/14 * normalized_speed

Damn, I think I got confused by Blizz pep talk into believing both parts of the formula were normalized. Shame on me.
But good I got that clarified. One "mystery" explained.


I believe in calculating your white damage/dps, only the "real" weapon speed is used.

But we were talking about instant attacks, mainly Sinister Strike. SS damage is based on damage and normalized weapon speed.

Speaking of it, I think Sinister Strike and Hemorrhage are the only attacks where weapon speed is involved in calculating the damage.
#19 Nov 21 2007 at 8:33 PM Rating: Default
so i have a faster dagger and a slower sword. both do around same dps. my dagger shood be OF, and ssword in MH, so is this difference worth the loss of backstab/ambush/etc. that i cood use if i had my dagger in MH?
#20 Nov 21 2007 at 8:38 PM Rating: Decent
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jschach wrote:
so i have a faster dagger and a slower sword. both do around same dps. my dagger shood be OF, and ssword in MH, so is this difference worth the loss of backstab/ambush/etc. that i cood use if i had my dagger in MH?


Just use sinister strike then. It's better anyway. You also can just put the dagger in your mainhand while stealthed, Ambush, and then swap weapons mid fight to start using the sword.
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#21 Nov 21 2007 at 9:59 PM Rating: Decent
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The rogue forums have the rep of having a bunch of jackass posters mainly because of me.

I'll take a bow and an encore, thanks.
#22 Nov 21 2007 at 11:23 PM Rating: Decent
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Theophany the Sly wrote:
The rogue forums have the rep of having a bunch of jackass posters mainly because of me.

I'll take a bow and an encore, thanks.


You may be a jackass but you're a terrible rogue.
#23 Nov 22 2007 at 12:33 AM Rating: Decent
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MentalFrog wrote:
Theophany the Sly wrote:
The rogue forums have the rep of having a bunch of jackass posters mainly because of me.

I'll take a bow and an encore, thanks.


You may be a jackass but you're a terrible rogue.

K.

I'm rubber, you're glue.
#24 Nov 22 2007 at 5:06 AM Rating: Default
tks for the suggestion MYteddy, is there a macro anyone knows of for switching MH to OH and vice cersa?
#25 Nov 22 2007 at 5:46 AM Rating: Good
/equipslot 16 17

It'll swap MH and OH, although obviously both have to be able to fit in either slot.
#26 Nov 22 2007 at 11:10 AM Rating: Default
tks alot, ill go give it a try now
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