Hi folks. I've enjoyed reading this forum since I started my character, and I'd like a little help with a few questions. I did a bit of research before I started playing WoW, because I wanted to ensure that I picked a character as wildly different as possible from the cleric I played in EQ for 7+ years. The mage seemed a natural choice, and I've had an absolute blast with him. As I tried to figure out my future talent build, I saw posts on a number of WoW forums about the wonders of 10/48/3, so I made that my destination and I've steadily worked toward that end.
I don't have any issues with deep fire (I've had good fun questing with it), but as I've continued to read posts from more experienced mages I've begun to wonder if I'm giving up some damage because of my choice. Neither raiding nor pvp are in my future, but I have at least reached a level where I can begin enjoying some of the Outlands instances with my friends, and I'd like to make sure I'm contributing as much as possible. After that long, rambling preface, here are my questions:
--When people discuss the need for a certain level of spell damage in order to make 10/48/3 the best (at least arguably) damage spec, what's the magic number? Arrayed in an assortment of quest greens and blues my spell damage is only slightly over 300, which I'm confident is well below the recommended spell damage for 10/48/3. I'm sure that will increase as I finish out my last few levels, but I don't have the patience for tailoring or the time for raiding, so I doubt it'll increase significantly.
--If I changed to a 40/21/0 PVE oriented build, how radically would my spell lineup and combat style change? It's currently absurdly simple: Pull with 2 fireballs, pop a fireblast, then nova and fireball or scorch once for the kill if needed. After a spec change, would AB become a more prominent spell? Obviously I'd gain PoM, but would much else change?
--Would there be enough of a damage increase to even warrant the change? As I mentioned, it's not as though I seem to have trouble soloing mobs above my level, and I manage to pull enough aggro in instances to occasionally get my butt handed to me (though I suspect that has more to do with our lack of a tank than to anything I'm doing).
Thanks for your patience in reading this and for your replies.
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10/48/3 vs. 40/21/0Follow
I don't know much (if anything) about fire as I hit 70 with a 2/0/59 build. I have been frost since day 1. I am currently 40/0/21 (check armory in signature) and I absolutely love it.
My DPS is not quite as high as a fire mage, but its not off by much. With the deep arcane talents, you gain spell damage bonuses, mana buffs, and mana conservation talents. I have over 11k mana buffed and can't remember the last time I ran out, outside of a long fight. Even fighting the Prince in Kara the other night I only had to burn 1 mana pot.
Fire uses more mana and gives more DPS, where Frost uses less mana and less DPS, but in a long drawn out fight my ending damage is almost the same as that of a fire mage around the same stats.
Link your armory so we can examine what you got and advise accordingly.
My DPS is not quite as high as a fire mage, but its not off by much. With the deep arcane talents, you gain spell damage bonuses, mana buffs, and mana conservation talents. I have over 11k mana buffed and can't remember the last time I ran out, outside of a long fight. Even fighting the Prince in Kara the other night I only had to burn 1 mana pot.
Fire uses more mana and gives more DPS, where Frost uses less mana and less DPS, but in a long drawn out fight my ending damage is almost the same as that of a fire mage around the same stats.
Link your armory so we can examine what you got and advise accordingly.
So, the magic number is around 700 spell damage. (Might be 650)... there is a thread around here that has a graph as to how 40/21/0, 10/48/3 and 33/28/0 stack up against eachother. Try to find that.
When I went heavy arcane-fire, my build was more like a scorch build, so I had impact and my *heavy nuke* was POM-Pyro. In PvE, I would pull with a normal pyroblast, then scorch to death. The nice thing about impact is that molten armor procs it, so that makes it fun in PvP as that rogue that just pounced on you is just standing there while you bleed to death instead of actively stabbing you in the back.
I usually played the 33/28/0 spec for more crit from the fire tree, but you lose the +150ish damage from the arcane tree if you go that way.
There ya go. HTH
When I went heavy arcane-fire, my build was more like a scorch build, so I had impact and my *heavy nuke* was POM-Pyro. In PvE, I would pull with a normal pyroblast, then scorch to death. The nice thing about impact is that molten armor procs it, so that makes it fun in PvP as that rogue that just pounced on you is just standing there while you bleed to death instead of actively stabbing you in the back.
I usually played the 33/28/0 spec for more crit from the fire tree, but you lose the +150ish damage from the arcane tree if you go that way.
There ya go. HTH
3 posts
Thanks for the responses, and I'll see if I can't track down that graph. I didn't include my armory link initially because I didn't want the thread to devolve into a gear discussion. My gear is poor and, at best, will eventually be mediocre, which is the main reason I'm wondering aloud about the move to deep(er) arcane. I'll obviously continue to hit the Armory and look for upgrades, but many of the best items simply aren't realistic for me. That said, here's my armory link, with the caveats that a) I'll probably ***** the link up and b)the slot occupied by the Carrot is typically filled by the Vengeance of the Illdari.
[link=http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Elune&n=Binbin[/link]
Thanks again for the responses, and I'd welcome any other responses as well.
[link=http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Elune&n=Binbin[/link]
Thanks again for the responses, and I'd welcome any other responses as well.
Lol... you'll find that around here you generally won't see the same kind of discussions on the WoW O-boards. I knew by reading your initial post that your gear wasn't that great. Everyone is a work in progress, and I'll not flame you for not having your full spellfire set yet (but it is insanely easy to craft, and you'd be remiss if you didn't create it...........)
HTH
HTH
I was 40/21/0 for a long time after I made my spellfire till my spell damage was up around 950 I believe. Then I made the "switch" to 10/48/3. I love it. I never leveled as fire and now it is a blast. Yes it dropped my spell damage, but my dps went up. I loved having that arcane build though.
As far as spell rotation, it kinda depends how you go in the fire tree. I believe my build was something like this. In boss fights, I stacked scorch, threw out fireballs, then put scorch up again when the debuff was going to expire. When I had a little bit of an aggro gap, I would throw out a pom ap trinket pyro. If you get the 2 piece T4, you can take the points out of burning soul and put them somewhere else. Granted I am not a great mage mind, but I am learning and this place has helped a ton with my knowledge of the class.
As far as pulling aggro, fire mages need a good tank so they can unload. If you are interested in playing out with builds and what not, check out lhiveras theorycraft. It is a great tool and helped me greatly.
As far as spell rotation, it kinda depends how you go in the fire tree. I believe my build was something like this. In boss fights, I stacked scorch, threw out fireballs, then put scorch up again when the debuff was going to expire. When I had a little bit of an aggro gap, I would throw out a pom ap trinket pyro. If you get the 2 piece T4, you can take the points out of burning soul and put them somewhere else. Granted I am not a great mage mind, but I am learning and this place has helped a ton with my knowledge of the class.
As far as pulling aggro, fire mages need a good tank so they can unload. If you are interested in playing out with builds and what not, check out lhiveras theorycraft. It is a great tool and helped me greatly.
3 posts
Thanks for the response and links, Fuganator. The calculator looks pretty interesting.
9 posts
Clegger, it is relatively easy to get to 700+ spell damage just from quest rewards and from drops from regular 5-man instances in outland. look up the quest rewards, and pursue those quests. At 70 you can put a major spellpower enchant on your staff / weapon for +40 spell damage. Other enchants are available. Also through the scryer affiliation you can get some nice enhancements to your gear.
Look up these forums, all the pre-raid gear has been posted, with links. It's easy. As a mage you want your spell damage bonus to be as high as possible, it makes gameplay a super-blast.
As far as build, I played 10/48/3 and deep frost (i forgot the numbers, had 50 in frost anyway) and both are nice, even though i feel fire is a bit more powerful.
Enjoy. Even without pursuing it, one day you will end up in Karazan.
Look up these forums, all the pre-raid gear has been posted, with links. It's easy. As a mage you want your spell damage bonus to be as high as possible, it makes gameplay a super-blast.
As far as build, I played 10/48/3 and deep frost (i forgot the numbers, had 50 in frost anyway) and both are nice, even though i feel fire is a bit more powerful.
Enjoy. Even without pursuing it, one day you will end up in Karazan.
Imho it's much better to raid as arcane mage.
You have 10% more chance to hit and 40% less aggro.Using 2xArcane blast and 4xScorch or 2xFireball (even Arcane Missiles,if you have them improved it's a lot of DPS) it's really mana efficient if you worry about that.Mind Mastery will get your +dmg way up and Arcane Mind will keep you up an running in long boss fights.
Now add the Clearcasting (30% more crit for improved) and combine it with AP and PoM and voila!!!You are the nuke cannon you were made to be :)
If you manage to get a paladin in 5 man instances get a salvation and just nuke with no aggro problem.
BTW i have noticed that if clearcasting proccs off from Arcane missiles then all the hits from the spell will benefit from the +crit even if you didn't cast it with clearcasting.Have you noticed it too or is it just me?
You have 10% more chance to hit and 40% less aggro.Using 2xArcane blast and 4xScorch or 2xFireball (even Arcane Missiles,if you have them improved it's a lot of DPS) it's really mana efficient if you worry about that.Mind Mastery will get your +dmg way up and Arcane Mind will keep you up an running in long boss fights.
Now add the Clearcasting (30% more crit for improved) and combine it with AP and PoM and voila!!!You are the nuke cannon you were made to be :)
If you manage to get a paladin in 5 man instances get a salvation and just nuke with no aggro problem.
BTW i have noticed that if clearcasting proccs off from Arcane missiles then all the hits from the spell will benefit from the +crit even if you didn't cast it with clearcasting.Have you noticed it too or is it just me?
unfortunately the arcane mage will never catch up unless you are using 2 piece T5. Unless you are doing a fight that is unfriendly to fire, fire is the way to go if you intend to put in the numbers.
add the fact that the LC trinket and the MSD gem got nerfed rather badly, arcane will just be sub-par up to the point where you are using 2 piece T5.
The clearcast during AM double dipping crit thing is working as intended and most arcane mages swear by it. The thing is your dps is lower due to the way AM works. And without back to back MSD procs AM spam is now at the bottom of the food chain.
add the fact that the LC trinket and the MSD gem got nerfed rather badly, arcane will just be sub-par up to the point where you are using 2 piece T5.
The clearcast during AM double dipping crit thing is working as intended and most arcane mages swear by it. The thing is your dps is lower due to the way AM works. And without back to back MSD procs AM spam is now at the bottom of the food chain.
Well i don't have neither LC trinker nor the MSD gem but i still prefer to use AB since it is realy low on mana and can still crit for 3k-3,6k with less aggro and i have no t5.
I only use AM when on clearcast.It's not that bad to see your AM hit for 1,4k each.
Remember that unless the lock is Destro it's much better for him and for you to use CoS instead of CoE (for kara and ZA cause on 25man you will have both).
As far as I'm concerned though on my last SSC raid I was second on meter during the Lurker fight and 3 days ago on Gruul I was third.Fire mages was way bellow me (like 7th-8th if i remember well).
EDIT: spelling again :S
Edited, Nov 21st 2007 12:31am by Gagady
I only use AM when on clearcast.It's not that bad to see your AM hit for 1,4k each.
Remember that unless the lock is Destro it's much better for him and for you to use CoS instead of CoE (for kara and ZA cause on 25man you will have both).
As far as I'm concerned though on my last SSC raid I was second on meter during the Lurker fight and 3 days ago on Gruul I was third.Fire mages was way bellow me (like 7th-8th if i remember well).
EDIT: spelling again :S
Edited, Nov 21st 2007 12:31am by Gagady
Gagady wrote:
Well i don't have neither LC trinker nor the MSD gem but i still prefer to use AB since it is realy low on mana and can still crit for 3k-3,6k with less aggro and i have no t5.
I only use AM when on clearcast.It's not that bad to see your AM hit for 1,4k each.
Remember that unless the lock is Destro it's much better for him and for you to use CoS instead of CoE (for kara and ZA cause on 25man you will have both).
As far as I'm concerned though on my last SSC raid I was second on meter during the Lurker fight and 3 days ago on Gruul I was third.Fire mages was way bellow me (like 7th-8th if i remember well).
EDIT: spelling again :S
Edited, Nov 21st 2007 12:31am by Gagady
I only use AM when on clearcast.It's not that bad to see your AM hit for 1,4k each.
Remember that unless the lock is Destro it's much better for him and for you to use CoS instead of CoE (for kara and ZA cause on 25man you will have both).
As far as I'm concerned though on my last SSC raid I was second on meter during the Lurker fight and 3 days ago on Gruul I was third.Fire mages was way bellow me (like 7th-8th if i remember well).
EDIT: spelling again :S
Edited, Nov 21st 2007 12:31am by Gagady
can you post yours and his armories so we can see the gear differential?
His armory
http://eu.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Dragonmaw&n=Tereel
my armory
http://eu.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Haomarush&n=Nethertwist
Our guild now has disbanded.We were on Ressurected.
As you can see we have a little difference in gear as he has t6 and some mercyless.
And i have absolutely no idea why it doesn't show my wand!!:S
Believe it or not i was above him on ssc.
EDIT: I just saw that he migrated from my server :/
Edited, Nov 21st 2007 2:17am by Gagady
http://eu.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Dragonmaw&n=Tereel
my armory
http://eu.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Haomarush&n=Nethertwist
Our guild now has disbanded.We were on Ressurected.
As you can see we have a little difference in gear as he has t6 and some mercyless.
And i have absolutely no idea why it doesn't show my wand!!:S
Believe it or not i was above him on ssc.
EDIT: I just saw that he migrated from my server :/
Edited, Nov 21st 2007 2:17am by Gagady
Quote:
Imho it's much better to raid as arcane mage.
I'm deep arcane, but the only reason I am is because I got sick of pulling aggro/standing around waiting for my tank's threat to get up there before I nuked. I outgear our tank as I came from a post-kara guild to a kara guild. That's the only reason I can justify being deep arcane without the T5 2 piece bonus. I actually get to do more damage than I would if I were 10/48/3. But since I have decent gear, I also top the meters quite frequently. But if your tank can generate enough aggro, it's much better to raid as a fire mage.
Gagady wrote:
His armory
http://eu.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Dragonmaw&n=Tereel
my armory
http://eu.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Haomarush&n=Nethertwist
Our guild now has disbanded.We were on Ressurected.
As you can see we have a little difference in gear as he has t6 and some mercyless.
And i have absolutely no idea why it doesn't show my wand!!:S
Believe it or not i was above him on ssc.
EDIT: I just saw that he migrated from my server :/
Edited, Nov 21st 2007 2:17am by Gagady
http://eu.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Dragonmaw&n=Tereel
my armory
http://eu.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Haomarush&n=Nethertwist
Our guild now has disbanded.We were on Ressurected.
As you can see we have a little difference in gear as he has t6 and some mercyless.
And i have absolutely no idea why it doesn't show my wand!!:S
Believe it or not i was above him on ssc.
EDIT: I just saw that he migrated from my server :/
Edited, Nov 21st 2007 2:17am by Gagady
you and him have a huge gear differential. If he was really that far below you (7th/8th on damage), it is because he totally outgeared the tank and had to hold back while nuking, that or he just playing sucked.
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