pally tank woesFollow

Any decent pally tank can get enough aggro off Avenging Wrath + Avenger's Shield + Consecrate to let any dps who don't vastly outgear them go to town.

So no, that guy just sucked.

lol, 2 Consecrations, are you serious? 8 sec CD on that spell so you're looking at 16 secs at the bare minimum before DPS starts in. Warriors asking for 3 Sunders take much less time then that. Yea, your Paly tank there was a total noob.

The only time I ask anyone to "wait" for anything, other than my mana, is Rogues who like to stun mobs before they get to me. Drives me NUTS! Avenger's Shield then the combination of blocking with Holy Shield and my Seal/Judgement of choice is almost always plenty sufficient for the main target, with Consecrates going for all off targets.

Right. Totally not the most awesome blessing for DPS. Nope, not at all.

Unless your tank can push his threat really really far, your DPS will always have to hold back. With that blessing they get 30% more DPS before they have to worry about it. That's huge.

Now, if they suck and can't even get near the tank's threat, or if the tank is awesome and can push his threat real far, they can get Might/Wis and all that stuff.

Bottom line, he sucked. That string of whatever you cleaned up was him talking to himself.

Avengers Shield and a blessing is usually enough. After he hits me with a few swings on the Holy Shiled he's mine. AoE? Throwing down the ground fire (conceration) is to keep adds or groups from running to the blessed healer keeping me alive. 16 sec for both cons to resolve? Asking for 2 much.

When I was 56 I asked a lvl 70 fire mage to wait for one Con to finish... lol!

peace ya'll

fact? thats not fact. if your mage doesn't need salv then you are a suck mage.

lol Yup new to your Pally Boards. First post was Nov 5 and I read what was on the page then but not back. I looked for a bit for this Salv thread but didnt find it, and I can't search... frankly don't care that much.

If you're gonna come out and say I suck since I can do my job as Mage and not steal agro at inopportune times then I'll just come out and say if you need to Salv a *important* Good mage then you, in fact, suck.

I come from EQ raiding (actually been a long long time now) but I learned the long hard way how to control agro... Real agro. Not this horse crap WOW has presented where you get dozens of insanely simple ways to get agro and keep it. EQ was a game where getting and securing agro while Debuffing and Slowing was a 10 part process that took minutes, and real DPS like Rogues and Wizards had to wait often 5+ minutes before throwing in some damage (it wasn't like mana regenerated in 10 seconds like WOW either.) Even in grind groups warrior would build threat for 30 sec to a minute, and again real DPS like Wizards wouldnt come in until 50%)

If a tank can't hold agro it's sad on so many levels in this game... It's so easy for the tank to get it and so easy for DPS to not. The problem is there is no self-control, no self-awareness of 95% of the players in this game and nobody seems to know their Job. It is INSANELY easy for a Arcane mage to do Full-blown DPS and not get agro, and as Fire all it takes is a proper spell rotation. Ice is not a good 5Man spec and it's not because its inefficient or Low DPS but it's uncontrolled threat. In certain situations (as I said) you're going to find exceptions but that's why these classes have Threat Drops!

In the OP's case, I stand by the fact that Salv is just a crutch for RETARDS! Go ahead and rate-down cuz I havn't gotten much help on these board so far anyways... XD

Sorry mate, but this isn't EQ, and judging from what you're saying I'm glad it ain't. Far too "hardcore" and "leet" for me. Seriously, wait 5 minutes before DPS? Lemme go make coffee.

Good spell rotation will indeed maximize your damage output/threat ratio, but Salv will simply allow you to push it 30% further without pulling. Simple as that. Sure, Wis comes close second but, taking your Mage for example, you have Evocation to take care of mana regen so Wis should only be a bonus when available. In raid settings you're so likely to have both that it's not even worth discussing. In 5-man, you shouldn't run out of mana in a fight unless you're undergeared or use overly costly spells.

I never ever wait that long.. 2 cons? wtf ahah..
avengers wrath, throw my shield ,(exorcism if undead), if im on a boss and need more threat ill judge crusader then seal and judge vengeance after it stacks 5 time and then seal and judge righteousness repeatedly.
If i don't need uber threat ill skip the vengeance and just go into judging and sealing R. All the while spamming my holy shield like its going out of style..

Ive never ever really had.... aggro problems- well i take that back. Second boss in slabs, the mind control ogre that wipes aggro, that gave me trouble the first time. But other than that im into kara as main tank and not having any issues. That pally was a NuBsaucers!

*edit- a good pally can, and should be able to pull that string of stuff off within a few seconds. its not even that much of a headache!

Edited, Nov 20th 2007 11:27am by inforce

stop stating untruths. fire mages need to hold back ALOT without salv. as for deep frost mages, they have extremely controlled threat management with consistent dmg...hell my pet accounts for 10% of my dps and he isn't even part of my threat.

if you are a dps class and are not ABLE to ride the threat ceiling then you need to reevaluate your playstyle and/or gear.

i would just like to let you know that i can no longer particapate in this discussion due to the overwhelming need to laugh histerically when i read this quote. actually, can i put this in my sig?

if the topic is 5mans, my pally tank is gonna aoe tank most regulars. so gimme the 1k dps aoe mage with salv. rogues need not apply.

now on heroics, CC is the better bet. therefor you wont be dot+tabbing. this is where the burst dmg is king and affliction locks fall off. again, i'll take the mage, shammy, or SP w/salv of course. heroic boss fights: dont wait to dps. the healer is the concern here. if dps stalls, the healer goes oom. game over.

for raids, ask a 1600 dps lock if he would like salv. report back with your findings.

Ok where did I have bad punctuation. I did Calc 1-3, DiffEq, Calc 4, Physics 1-3, Statics-Thermodynamics, and on into a whole mess of bullcrap I don't even want to speak about. While I'm glad you can do Calc 2, I don't see your point.

My Pally is only 31 right now, I have been busy lately... so you know what from the perspective of a 61 Paladin you definatly have an upper hand on that reguard, but you're not the only one with a 70 Mage. Or a 70 Lock.

Arcane Builds can put out better somewhat sustained-DPS than Mage, and its DEFINATLY not about flashy numbers. Arcane has multiple techs that allow a Missile/AB rotation with about 15% more DPM (so yes, great call on the less efficient Sir, who doesn't know this?) than Fire with much better hit-through, more balanced damage, and MUCH LESS agro -- Arcane Subtlety anyone? Anyone who Does a hard AB spam in a regular situation doesn't know what they are doing... at all.

This Salvation brawl we've gotten into is a result of me saying

and then following it up with a pseudo-correction


The reason I feel this way is when I get forced as a Mage or Warlock into taking Salv by a Pally who won't give me Wisdom or Kings it's pretty damn frusterating, especially since it really doesn't help me! It's really not that hard to figure out how not to get agro, especially in a 5-man where as a Mage taking an extra few seconds w/o casting is just gonna boost you a bit more Mana, or hell start up with a few scorches since they're such good DPM and rack up the effect in the mean time... you wont draw agro that way.

And my Rant about EQ wasn't to put people that play this game down, it was simply stating that situations on agro have been MUCH more frusterating in games before this one, and people still find ways to make it work. Salvation IS one way to make it work. While I made a sweeping generalization about Sal I was definatly talking originally to maskofdeath about a Mana Tombs group... A hunter DOES NOT NEED BoSalv in a Mana Tombs group.

As I level if someone begins to frusterate me with their lack of judgement and self-control then maybe I'll BoSalv, or maybe I'll just boot em from the group. As Rogues don't have to start off with all their instants at once, Mages don't have to start with a Pyro Fireblast, and Hunters don't have to leave Pet Taunt on... they just do...

And if 1 more person comes in and talks about on Raids how much Agro they put out I'm gonna laugh cuz it's right there for the third time, this isn't referencing Raids.