Hi all, I'm posting this on behalf of a Shammy buddy of mine, so please bear with me if this sounds totally noobish.
My buddy plays an enhancement shammy, DW'ing 2 High Warlord's Cleaver's. Both are 2.6 speed.
Recently he's started doing Kara with a new guild we've joined (sadly, I can't go, cos my schedule doesn't allow it ... but I digress ;->), and this (Legacy) dropped. He wanted to pass on it, because it ws a 2h and he prefers to DW, but the rest of the Raid convinced him that he should take it (nice bunch of guys).
Now he's complaining that he doesn't have enough DPS to help drop Prince (for clarity, he's still DW the HWL axes, the Legacy is in the bank). I've been trying to convince him to use the 2H axe, purely because the stats are better, the dps (114) is better that the effective combined dps of the 2 High Warlord's Cleaver's (71 each .. bearing in mind the miss rate and 50% loss of damage on off hand).
His arguement is that he doesn't know how 2H weapons work with WF ... and more specifically, Stormstrike. The SS issue relates specifically to the tooltip, which says it will attack with "Both Weapons" at the same time. How much is lost (if any) by going to the 2h over the 2 1-handers.
I have tried to share my knowledge from a warrior perspective (which is my main), but I lack the answers when questions about Shammy specific skills are involved.
So, what should he do ... basically, I'm asking Legacy or 2xHigh Warlord's Cleaver's
Thanks all, much appreciated in advance.
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Stormstrike, windfury and 2-handersFollow
Very detailed questions, my answer won't be as detailed but here goes anyway...
For PVE - definitely dual wield. Even more so with patch 2.3 changes to threat.
For PVP - use the biggest & meanest looking, slowest swing time, highest dps Mace or Axe he can find. The arena season 2 2H mace is a fine weapon for windfury triple crits imo.
So I will say to increase his raid dps, he should really look to replace his dual wield weapons.
Edited, Nov 20th 2007 8:32am by Lecanthi
For PVE - definitely dual wield. Even more so with patch 2.3 changes to threat.
For PVP - use the biggest & meanest looking, slowest swing time, highest dps Mace or Axe he can find. The arena season 2 2H mace is a fine weapon for windfury triple crits imo.
So I will say to increase his raid dps, he should really look to replace his dual wield weapons.
Edited, Nov 20th 2007 8:32am by Lecanthi
Many thanks for the reply.
Lol, yup, I reckon that's what we both thought .. problem is that it's not that easy to replace those, except for a drop or 2 from Prince himself ... and that's who they're trying to drop :-/ ... any other suggestions .. heroic loot, maybe ?
But yeah, I'll pass on that knowedge, perhaps he should time-out and farm some honor for the gladiator's axes ... now THOSE will definitely help a fair bit.
Lol, yup, I reckon that's what we both thought .. problem is that it's not that easy to replace those, except for a drop or 2 from Prince himself ... and that's who they're trying to drop :-/ ... any other suggestions .. heroic loot, maybe ?
But yeah, I'll pass on that knowedge, perhaps he should time-out and farm some honor for the gladiator's axes ... now THOSE will definitely help a fair bit.
To get into just a little more detail, there are two main reasons to dual-wield over a two-hander in PvE.
1. Even with the accuracy penalty, you're going to hit more often than with a two-hander, so damage is more reliable and higher over time. This is true for any class that can consider dual-wielding over a two-hander, and why classes that can dual-wield will almost always out-DPS classes that can't.
2. Because you're hitting more, you're going to be critting more as well. This keeps Unleashed Rage up more often (good for both you and your party/raid), and since 2.3, keeps Shamanistic Focus up more often as well which is just... amazing beyond words for your DPS and mana efficiency.
1. Even with the accuracy penalty, you're going to hit more often than with a two-hander, so damage is more reliable and higher over time. This is true for any class that can consider dual-wielding over a two-hander, and why classes that can dual-wield will almost always out-DPS classes that can't.
2. Because you're hitting more, you're going to be critting more as well. This keeps Unleashed Rage up more often (good for both you and your party/raid), and since 2.3, keeps Shamanistic Focus up more often as well which is just... amazing beyond words for your DPS and mana efficiency.
What I have to say his views on how WF and stormstrike work are a bit ignorant of course they are great whit 2h weapons, in 10 seconds a 2h may attack 3 times, stormstrike is an increase of 33% damage in that respect, and 2h weapons can do some crazy wf attacks. The only problem is 2h weapons are very very slow, not to metion a miss is something close to the end of the world with a 2h even though they are more accurate.
While DW you gain a large amount dps, you hit so often, and if you miss every now and then its not too big of a deal (just make sure he has something like 100 hit rating on his gear). DW supports dps, 2h supports heavy burst, basicly thats the difference, so he is right to want to dw in that respect. Anyhow he can purchase his Season 1 epic weapons with honor tell him to work on that when that is implemented.
While DW you gain a large amount dps, you hit so often, and if you miss every now and then its not too big of a deal (just make sure he has something like 100 hit rating on his gear). DW supports dps, 2h supports heavy burst, basicly thats the difference, so he is right to want to dw in that respect. Anyhow he can purchase his Season 1 epic weapons with honor tell him to work on that when that is implemented.
Legacy is by far better than the two HWL weapons, that is if he doesn't have the gear to back up the weapons.
The problem might be is that his Hit Rating is far below 100 or that his Critical Strike rate is below 20%, it could be both.
The thing about Legacy is that it's a great weapon, but great caution must come with the use of a 2h, especially raid buffed. In a 5man situation, a fully epicced out tank has trouble keep aggro my greedy blue and epic geared *** when I'm slugging out with my 2h. In a 5man, I usually sit at around 1.3k AP with a Druid buff, and around 1.8k AP with UR, Druid buff, and trinkets up. In a raid situation, I could be experiencing a Critical Strike rate upwards of 30% and my AP has a potential of hitting around the 2.3-2.4k range. If a tank in that 5man has trouble keeping aggro from me and my 2h, then the raiding tank will have a much harder job especially when Bloodlust and the WF crits get going.
2h weapons carry very high burst damage output, but also carry with them very high threat spikes. Shamans know that a gigantic threat spike on a boss means instant death.
I say have him use it, especially if his gear isn't up to snuff, and tell him to DW again once he gets some slow Epics, once he gets the slow Epic one handers it will be a guranteed increase in DPS if he is geared right.
The problem might be is that his Hit Rating is far below 100 or that his Critical Strike rate is below 20%, it could be both.
The thing about Legacy is that it's a great weapon, but great caution must come with the use of a 2h, especially raid buffed. In a 5man situation, a fully epicced out tank has trouble keep aggro my greedy blue and epic geared *** when I'm slugging out with my 2h. In a 5man, I usually sit at around 1.3k AP with a Druid buff, and around 1.8k AP with UR, Druid buff, and trinkets up. In a raid situation, I could be experiencing a Critical Strike rate upwards of 30% and my AP has a potential of hitting around the 2.3-2.4k range. If a tank in that 5man has trouble keeping aggro from me and my 2h, then the raiding tank will have a much harder job especially when Bloodlust and the WF crits get going.
2h weapons carry very high burst damage output, but also carry with them very high threat spikes. Shamans know that a gigantic threat spike on a boss means instant death.
I say have him use it, especially if his gear isn't up to snuff, and tell him to DW again once he gets some slow Epics, once he gets the slow Epic one handers it will be a guranteed increase in DPS if he is geared right.
He can always pick up two Runic Hammers.
http://wow.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?witem=23544&locale=enUS;source=live
They are a bit pricey, but much better for DPSing then those crappy blue PvP weapons. I don't see how he could even get in a Kara group that's working on Prince if he has those weapons, no offense to him. If my guild leader ever saw someone in his raid with that, he'd give them the boot immediately.
http://wow.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?witem=23544&locale=enUS;source=live
They are a bit pricey, but much better for DPSing then those crappy blue PvP weapons. I don't see how he could even get in a Kara group that's working on Prince if he has those weapons, no offense to him. If my guild leader ever saw someone in his raid with that, he'd give them the boot immediately.
Scholar
44 posts
I would recommend downloading and running The Shamulator.
It'll tell him exactly how much DPS he'll be doing with each configuration, and he can see how much StormStrike and Windfury effect his DPS.
Edited, Nov 21st 2007 1:36am by Elecktrofreak
morgorg wrote:
I don't see how he could even get in a Kara group that's working on Prince if he has those weapons, no offense to him. If my guild leader ever saw someone in his raid with that, he'd give them the boot immediately.
Huh, ok, that's something I didn't know .. are you saying the minimum requirement for getting into Kara is Epic Gear ... wow, that's really something, I guess all the people doing Kara in Blue gear should stop now, not so? (yes, there IS sarcasm there, just in case you missed it)
We're talking Kara here, not ZA, or 25 mans ... It's KARA for goodness sake. And if I was part of a guild which booted a Shammy (who is doing ~580 - ~600 dps)from the raid, just because his weapons weren't epic ... then I'd leave the guild.
Forunately, our guild isn't like that, so he will not be booted, and I will not be leaving.
Anybody else want to offer their superfluous, elitist opinion ???
Thanks everyone else for their constructive comments, I'll be sure to pass them on.
Edited, Nov 21st 2007 5:28am by robertlofthouse
Elecktrofreak wrote:
I would recommend downloading and running The Shamulator.
It'll tell him exactly how much DPS he'll be doing with each configuration, and he can see how much StormStrike and Windfury effect his DPS.
Awesomeness of note ... Even the source code, I might even use this as a base for a warrior dps simulator .. thanks for this.
Scholar
44 posts
I love the program. I've used it when considering upgrades on weapons and such... I remember wanting a mace with 5 more DPS but a shorter swing time that I saw on the AH... but before I bought it I plugged the stats into the Shamulator, ran 100,000 swings, and found my total DPS had dropped. Saved me some money!
With so many variables involved in Enhance Shaman DPS, it's an invaluable tool. DPS meters aren't much good, since our damage curves tend to be very spikey. You crit, and suddenly you've got 10 seconds of Shamanistic Rage and 3 swings at 30% more speed. Throw in StormStrike, Windfury Procs (and crits), the 3 second hidden cooldown, and you're looking at a enough variables to make a mathematician whimper if you were to ask him for average DPS.
I am hoping the author updates it to take into account other weapon enchants too. With Mental Quickness giving us +spell damage equal to 30% of our AP, suddenly Flametongue and Frostbrand offer new possibilities (in certain circumstances). I'd like to see if my DPS would go up with Windfury on the main hand, along with a fast-swinging weapon with Flametongue in offhand. Hmmm...
Edited, Nov 22nd 2007 11:48pm by Elecktrofreak
With so many variables involved in Enhance Shaman DPS, it's an invaluable tool. DPS meters aren't much good, since our damage curves tend to be very spikey. You crit, and suddenly you've got 10 seconds of Shamanistic Rage and 3 swings at 30% more speed. Throw in StormStrike, Windfury Procs (and crits), the 3 second hidden cooldown, and you're looking at a enough variables to make a mathematician whimper if you were to ask him for average DPS.
I am hoping the author updates it to take into account other weapon enchants too. With Mental Quickness giving us +spell damage equal to 30% of our AP, suddenly Flametongue and Frostbrand offer new possibilities (in certain circumstances). I'd like to see if my DPS would go up with Windfury on the main hand, along with a fast-swinging weapon with Flametongue in offhand. Hmmm...
Edited, Nov 22nd 2007 11:48pm by Elecktrofreak
Elecktrofreak wrote:
I love the program. I've used it when considering upgrades on weapons and such... I remember wanting a mace with 5 more DPS but a shorter swing time that I saw on the AH... but before I bought it I plugged the stats into the Shamulator, ran 100,000 swings, and found my total DPS had dropped. Saved me some money!
With so many variables involved in Enhance Shaman DPS, it's an invaluable tool. DPS meters aren't much good, since our damage curves tend to be very spikey. You crit, and suddenly you've got 10 seconds of Shamanistic Rage and 3 swings at 30% more speed. Throw in StormStrike, Windfury Procs (and crits), the 3 second hidden cooldown, and you're looking at a enough variables to make a mathematician whimper if you were to ask him for average DPS.
I am hoping the author updates it to take into account other weapon enchants too. With Mental Quickness giving us +spell damage equal to 30% of our AP, suddenly Flametongue and Frostbrand offer new possibilities (in certain circumstances). I'd like to see if my DPS would go up with Windfury on the main hand, along with a fast-swinging weapon with Flametongue in offhand. Hmmm...
Edited, Nov 22nd 2007 11:48pm by Elecktrofreak
With so many variables involved in Enhance Shaman DPS, it's an invaluable tool. DPS meters aren't much good, since our damage curves tend to be very spikey. You crit, and suddenly you've got 10 seconds of Shamanistic Rage and 3 swings at 30% more speed. Throw in StormStrike, Windfury Procs (and crits), the 3 second hidden cooldown, and you're looking at a enough variables to make a mathematician whimper if you were to ask him for average DPS.
I am hoping the author updates it to take into account other weapon enchants too. With Mental Quickness giving us +spell damage equal to 30% of our AP, suddenly Flametongue and Frostbrand offer new possibilities (in certain circumstances). I'd like to see if my DPS would go up with Windfury on the main hand, along with a fast-swinging weapon with Flametongue in offhand. Hmmm...
Edited, Nov 22nd 2007 11:48pm by Elecktrofreak
It's already been theorycrafted, and WF still pulls ahead, especially in the higher end.
Blizzard has also stated before that they do not intend to scale any other imbues to match the power of WF.
Scholar
44 posts
Oh, good to hear... I musta missed that thread!
Thanks for the update. I would like to see Flametongue and Frostbrand have a use though... some day.
Thanks for the update. I would like to see Flametongue and Frostbrand have a use though... some day.
Flametongue already has a use... it is to Elemental Shaman what Windfury is to Enhancement Shaman: standard issue weapon buff. It's really only Frostbrand and Rockbiter that don't have a use at the moment, which is a shame.
Theorycraft on WF+FT aside, I can tell you firsthand that I tried this and I noticed an appreciable loss in killing speed and efficiency.
Theorycraft on WF+FT aside, I can tell you firsthand that I tried this and I noticed an appreciable loss in killing speed and efficiency.
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