So I've been doing a lot of arena in this new 2.3 world, and the fact that prep is now a staple ability for most pvp build (except for the few remaning mutilate and full combat dinosaurs) has really changed the group dynamic of the rogue class.
The effect of Rogues have 2 timers of every kind are pretty big. AR/Prep rogues can destroy clothies like we are meant to do. Double Evasion makes us all but unstopable for melee while double sprint (especially if imp and/or with Shadowstep) solve a lot of our kitability issues, and double vanish grants us more leeway on how to use the ability.
All of this at a very slight dps lost, thanks to the Hemo buff.
So what does that mean concretly?
Well, we're still designed to end fight early, and the longer the fights last, the less trick we have to use... but with 2 set of timers, we're better equiped to actually end those fight early then ever before.
What more, as a rogue, I've found that my role has changed somewhat.
Where I used to stay away from warriors (Because they hurt), now I'm quite often on them like a pitbull, and if they turn around to fight me, Ghostly Strike and Double Evasion can keep my dodge rate betwee 72% and 87% for long enough that no real damage get throught.
In games where the other team had a Rogue, quite often both rogue would try and lock themselves out and whoever was the 'best rogue' would quite often lead in his team winning. Not so much anymore, the lost of Surprise attack remove the KS through Evasion technique and the 72-87% dodge rating of an Evasion rogue makes trying to kill one as a rogue an exercie in frustration.
Especially when he's just ignoring you and going for your teamates.
We've actually lost quite a few games because I was still going on their rogue, while he was more or less ignoring me with evasion and focusing down my partner. Until we adapted.
This is a huge change... melee dps doesn't go after rogues anymore. We've become way too slippery.
As a result, baring a lucky parry on a Whirlwind or when one of my teamate go down and the war/rogue finally turns to me... Riposte has been damn near usless. Not to mention all the teams without a melee dps class.
So why even bother with it really?
It's 6 points that could be used to better your dps against all foes...
Edited, Nov 19th 2007 5:31pm by Tyrandor
- Forums
- World of Warcraft
- Class Discussion
- Riposte: Yay or Nay?
Riposte: Yay or Nay?Follow
Now, Riposte is definitely not a good talent to incorporate into a Sub build.
Here's a tip, not sure if you know though, if you want to KS a rogue using evasion:
When toe-to-toe, instead of wasting your KS cooldown, hit Gouge. You are going to have the same rate of hit, but it's better to burn Gouge than to burn KS. And if Gouge does land, you get an undodgable KS.
Back on topic, in my mind, and in theory, Riposte is dead. It was BARELY worth the point investment pre patch, and now post patch those 6 points are greatly more valuable.
Here's a tip, not sure if you know though, if you want to KS a rogue using evasion:
When toe-to-toe, instead of wasting your KS cooldown, hit Gouge. You are going to have the same rate of hit, but it's better to burn Gouge than to burn KS. And if Gouge does land, you get an undodgable KS.
Back on topic, in my mind, and in theory, Riposte is dead. It was BARELY worth the point investment pre patch, and now post patch those 6 points are greatly more valuable.
It's a good tip, but it's not very useful most of the time.
If a rogue is stomping a mudhole in your priest/warlock partner, you're wasting your time trying to gouge/KS him if he has evasion up... you might as well go for his teamates and hope you're a better mudhole stomper.
And yeah, having 2/2 weapon expertise, imp kick and 3/3 S&D instead of 5/5 parry and Riposte is a lot better in that situation.
If a rogue is stomping a mudhole in your priest/warlock partner, you're wasting your time trying to gouge/KS him if he has evasion up... you might as well go for his teamates and hope you're a better mudhole stomper.
And yeah, having 2/2 weapon expertise, imp kick and 3/3 S&D instead of 5/5 parry and Riposte is a lot better in that situation.
Warchief Tyrandor wrote:
It's a good tip, but it's not very useful most of the time.
If a rogue is stomping a mudhole in your priest/warlock partner, you're wasting your time trying to gouge/KS him if he has evasion up... you might as well go for his teamates and hope you're a better mudhole stomper.
And yeah, having 2/2 weapon expertise, imp kick and 3/3 S&D instead of 5/5 parry and Riposte is a lot better in that situation.
If a rogue is stomping a mudhole in your priest/warlock partner, you're wasting your time trying to gouge/KS him if he has evasion up... you might as well go for his teamates and hope you're a better mudhole stomper.
And yeah, having 2/2 weapon expertise, imp kick and 3/3 S&D instead of 5/5 parry and Riposte is a lot better in that situation.
Yea it is actually a pretty situational and gut call move especially now.
For instance, if one or more their teammates are near, I wouldn't advise using it, as both the KS and Gouge would be much better served on another teammate taking them out of action.
But if their teammates are off in the distance, los, fell off the bridge, or unable to be hunted down, using Gouge is a better use of Energy and cooldown management then praying your KS lands.
Riposte doesn't go well with burst builds. Simple as that.
It's more or less the same theory as Warrior's not getting either a weapon chain or Weapon Mastery pre-patch.
You're trying to outsmart your opponents by assuming that they will assume you've already covered the 'obvious' reaction and thus ignore it. It can work, but it's also quite risky when you come up against someone who sees either 'knows' what you've done and tries the obvious counter anyway, or just doesn't care and goes for the 'obvious' counter because it's what he's always done.
There are rewards for the strategy, and there are pitfalls. You can outthink _yourself_ and rob yourself of a valuable counter that would otherwise have been available simply by thinking too _highly_ of your opponent. Sirlin has an excellent article that addresses this very point, actually... let me dig up the link.
Yomi
You're playing this game by ignoring c1 and praying that your opponent won't use m, and will instead exclusively use c2. It can work, or it can bite you in the *** horribly. Once an opponent has discovered that you don't have Riposte you're boned, though - and I know that I at least tend to Armory people I suspect of pulling tricks like this, at least after the first fight.
And since you often see the same group multiple times in any series of Arena games...
You're trying to outsmart your opponents by assuming that they will assume you've already covered the 'obvious' reaction and thus ignore it. It can work, but it's also quite risky when you come up against someone who sees either 'knows' what you've done and tries the obvious counter anyway, or just doesn't care and goes for the 'obvious' counter because it's what he's always done.
There are rewards for the strategy, and there are pitfalls. You can outthink _yourself_ and rob yourself of a valuable counter that would otherwise have been available simply by thinking too _highly_ of your opponent. Sirlin has an excellent article that addresses this very point, actually... let me dig up the link.
Yomi
Quote:
Let’s say I have a move (we’ll call it “mâ€) that’s really, really good. I want to do it all the time. (Here’s where the inequality of risk/reward comes in. If all my moves are equally good, this whole thing falls apart.) The “level 0†case here is discovering how good that move is and doing it all the time. Then, you will catch on and know that I’m likely to do that move a lot (yomi layer 1), so you’ll need a counter move (we’ll call it “c1â€). You’ve stopped me from doing m. You’ve shut me down. I need a way to stop you from doing c1. I need a counter to your counter, or “c2.â€
Now you don’t know what to expect from me anymore. I might do m, or I might do c2. Interestingly, I probably want to do m, but I just do c2 to scare you into not doing c1 anymore. Then I can sneak in more m.
You don’t have adequate choices yet. I can alternate between m and c2, but all you have is c1. You need a counter to c2, which we’ll call c3. Now we each have two moves.
Me: m, c2
You: c1, c3.
Now I need a counter to c3. The tendency might be to create a c4 move, but it’s not necessary. The move m can serve as my c4. Basically, if you expect me to do my counter to your counter (rather than my original good move m), then I don’t need a counter that; I can just do go ahead and do the original move…if the game is designed that way. Basically, supporting moves up Yomi Layer 3 is the minimum set of counters needed have a complete set of options, assuming Yomi Layer 4 wraps around back to Layer 0.
Now you don’t know what to expect from me anymore. I might do m, or I might do c2. Interestingly, I probably want to do m, but I just do c2 to scare you into not doing c1 anymore. Then I can sneak in more m.
You don’t have adequate choices yet. I can alternate between m and c2, but all you have is c1. You need a counter to c2, which we’ll call c3. Now we each have two moves.
Me: m, c2
You: c1, c3.
Now I need a counter to c3. The tendency might be to create a c4 move, but it’s not necessary. The move m can serve as my c4. Basically, if you expect me to do my counter to your counter (rather than my original good move m), then I don’t need a counter that; I can just do go ahead and do the original move…if the game is designed that way. Basically, supporting moves up Yomi Layer 3 is the minimum set of counters needed have a complete set of options, assuming Yomi Layer 4 wraps around back to Layer 0.
You're playing this game by ignoring c1 and praying that your opponent won't use m, and will instead exclusively use c2. It can work, or it can bite you in the *** horribly. Once an opponent has discovered that you don't have Riposte you're boned, though - and I know that I at least tend to Armory people I suspect of pulling tricks like this, at least after the first fight.
And since you often see the same group multiple times in any series of Arena games...
Quote:
You're playing this game by ignoring c1 and praying that your opponent won't use m, and will instead exclusively use c2. It can work, or it can bite you in the *** horribly. Once an opponent has discovered that you don't have Riposte you're boned, though - and I know that I at least tend to Armory people I suspect of pulling tricks like this, at least after the first fight.
How are you boned when they discover you don't have it? Other than the fact they know they don't need a weapon chain against you (useless vs rogues anyway, our disarm is a nuisance, not a defining move)?
As for the article you dug up, very nice. I couldn't agree more. That's how the arena game works, you need to know every possible move available. Then you need to know your new set of options when your enemy does X. Etc etc for every possible move of your enemy.
Sorry, I meant that if the game is "I don't have to worry about melee attacking me because they'll assume I have riposte" the obvious counter is to beat the hell out of the Rogue since they... don't have Riposte. It's not trivial by any means, but it's still not that hard in the overall scheme of things. Forcing focus fire to make you blow cooldowns and then moving on also works in the longer games.
And yeah, that entire site is worth reading.
And yeah, that entire site is worth reading.
As yomi said:
Which is the main issue - it isn't.
As Warrior/Rogue:
What's the 'counter' to a Rogue who has Ripotse? Don't attack him, kill his partners.
If the Warrior/Rogue realise I do not have Riposte and decides to attack me, he will see his damage go to damn near nothing as I double evade and Ghostly Strike.
What's the 'counter' to a Rogue who had double Evasion? Don't attack him, kill his partners.
Riposte is an extremely costly ability to pick up (6 points!) and it is situational. And that situation is now extremely uncommon due to the change to the Rogue talents tree. All it is right now is a cherry on top - disarming a Warrior/Rogue when you're at 87% dodge isn't going to do much.
What we have here, is two move designed to disable melee attack against you... one is not only more effective, but it also happens to be 'free' for the class. This make the 6 points Riposte looks kinda crappy.
This would be a different situation if Riposte was a 'on demand' ability, it could then be use strategically to save a partner who's getting focus fired. Saddly... it isn't.
Quote:
if the game is designed that way.
Which is the main issue - it isn't.
As Warrior/Rogue:
What's the 'counter' to a Rogue who has Ripotse? Don't attack him, kill his partners.
If the Warrior/Rogue realise I do not have Riposte and decides to attack me, he will see his damage go to damn near nothing as I double evade and Ghostly Strike.
What's the 'counter' to a Rogue who had double Evasion? Don't attack him, kill his partners.
Riposte is an extremely costly ability to pick up (6 points!) and it is situational. And that situation is now extremely uncommon due to the change to the Rogue talents tree. All it is right now is a cherry on top - disarming a Warrior/Rogue when you're at 87% dodge isn't going to do much.
What we have here, is two move designed to disable melee attack against you... one is not only more effective, but it also happens to be 'free' for the class. This make the 6 points Riposte looks kinda crappy.
This would be a different situation if Riposte was a 'on demand' ability, it could then be use strategically to save a partner who's getting focus fired. Saddly... it isn't.
Warchief Tyrandor wrote:
As yomi said:
Which is the main issue - it isn't.
As Warrior/Rogue:
What's the 'counter' to a Rogue who has Ripotse? Don't attack him, kill his partners.
If the Warrior/Rogue realise I do not have Riposte and decides to attack me, he will see his damage go to damn near nothing as I double evade and Ghostly Strike.
What's the 'counter' to a Rogue who had double Evasion? Don't attack him, kill his partners.
Quote:
if the game is designed that way.
Which is the main issue - it isn't.
As Warrior/Rogue:
What's the 'counter' to a Rogue who has Ripotse? Don't attack him, kill his partners.
If the Warrior/Rogue realise I do not have Riposte and decides to attack me, he will see his damage go to damn near nothing as I double evade and Ghostly Strike.
What's the 'counter' to a Rogue who had double Evasion? Don't attack him, kill his partners.
you are backing up Yomi here, as well as proving a bit of intelligence
. Sort of what I was getting at in my other post. You have your game plan setup so no matter what they decide to do, you already know your reaction. Which is the whole point Yomi was putting across. It's a game of who can/has thought of what they should do next for X.
Quote:
If the Warrior/Rogue realise I do not have Riposte and decides to attack me, he will see his damage go to damn near nothing as I double evade and Ghostly Strike.
Intercept, disarm before stun wears off (or, in my case, Intervene + Warstormp->Disarm) which kills Ghostly Strike. If he evades, I change targets - same as a Paladin Bubble or Ice Block if I can't remove it. But then the process repeats itself.
It's far from perfect, but removing Riposte does make you _more_ vulnerable to Warriors. It may still be perfectly fine for you, depending upon the persistence of your opposition, but it does reveal a bit of a ***** in the armor.
Of course, it may not matter... like a Paladin stocking up on even more armor, it just makes him harder to kill for people who already find him a complete ***** to take down anyway. *shrug*
RPZip wrote:
Quote:
If the Warrior/Rogue realise I do not have Riposte and decides to attack me, he will see his damage go to damn near nothing as I double evade and Ghostly Strike.
Intercept, disarm before stun wears off (or, in my case, Intervene + Warstormp->Disarm) which kills Ghostly Strike. If he evades, I change targets - same as a Paladin Bubble or Ice Block if I can't remove it. But then the process repeats itself.
It's far from perfect, but removing Riposte does make you _more_ vulnerable to Warriors. It may still be perfectly fine for you, depending upon the persistence of your opposition, but it does reveal a bit of a ***** in the armor.
Of course, it may not matter... like a Paladin stocking up on even more armor, it just makes him harder to kill for people who already find him a complete ***** to take down anyway. *shrug*
To Rogue's, Riposte is a great talent. It has a lot of uses, and also increases your survivability a lot.
But the point investment required for us to get it, isn't worth what we lose. Which is why we discuss on it so much. Trying to find the needle in the haystack so we can find a valid reason of how you could justify having it.
Edited, Nov 19th 2007 5:19pm by MYteddy
heres me on riposte
1: 4 viable classes use melee to kill: feral druid, enhance sham, warrior, and rogue - hence extra burst against these...
the new enhance 41 point can be a total pain in the *** for anyone not cheat-death enabled... warrior disarm is a good amount of damage reduce, and rogue... well lets see how you fair without a weapon for 3/6 seconds.... feral druid, well they got tons of hp... free damage is free damage
not only is it free damage via quick hit, and damage reduce via disarm... but you get 5% parry..... thats 5% chance to parry a KS, a warrior disarm, a opposing riposte, a gouge, a stormstrike that could have windfury'd your face off..... last time i checked... 1/2 points of nerves of steel = 5% stun resist... same thing for half the stuns in the game, you agree?
lets move on
2: the not as included uses to riposte...
a: hunter, the pet triggers the **** ALL the time, all of the ****** time.... free damage for the limited time your in range? score one for rogues.... plus disarm = no wing clip, remember that
b: warlocks, non-imps also trigger it... free BIG hit on a warlock? true ****** story you knwo that helps vs sl/sl, arguably the hardest class-spec to kill in 1v1 or 2v2.... hemo -> riposte -> gouge = 90 energy for 2 hits and a combat break? i like that myself
c: healers (1v1), most healers aside from priests will melee to deal damage outside of dots... 1h windfury on a sham, paladins whackin ya since they got no attack spells, druid poppin ****** mode bear form.... all proccable ripostes, and extra burst dps anyone will guess helps keep a healer defensive... helps us take less damage, helps them go OOM fasters
d: healers (team), so you went for the paladin healer in 2v2... but wait, hes got a bm hunter friend..... that bm pet will ENSURE you got riposte up once every 4 seconds, let alone 6 needed by cooldown.... forcing a bubble 5 seconds faster, thats a win waiting to happen.....
e: team arena, you see riposte light up in a 5v5, you see the warrior... hes 5 yards away cuz your team is 4 dps zerg mode? disarm him, stop that hamstring for a lil bit more.... stop maybe 1 more ms that woulda killed someone..... takes some thinking... but riposte carries over target change, and with hunters being new flavors for 5v5 teams.... they chuck a pet on a rogue to keep him in combat right? thank you for the free disarms on your warrior.... since honestly... how many games in 5v5 are no rogue no warrior?
sure, 6 points... its costly, totally.... but what are you really giving up for it?
imp snd? imp kick.... 2 seconds of silence? expertise rating? you can live without it all easily
it comes down to a choice matter of 'do i want all this decent ****... or a solid ability that affects 1/3 of the classes, and affects them HARD'
thats my case.... and i will NEVER value a 2 second silence over a finishing 1600 crit for 10 energy
1: 4 viable classes use melee to kill: feral druid, enhance sham, warrior, and rogue - hence extra burst against these...
the new enhance 41 point can be a total pain in the *** for anyone not cheat-death enabled... warrior disarm is a good amount of damage reduce, and rogue... well lets see how you fair without a weapon for 3/6 seconds.... feral druid, well they got tons of hp... free damage is free damage
not only is it free damage via quick hit, and damage reduce via disarm... but you get 5% parry..... thats 5% chance to parry a KS, a warrior disarm, a opposing riposte, a gouge, a stormstrike that could have windfury'd your face off..... last time i checked... 1/2 points of nerves of steel = 5% stun resist... same thing for half the stuns in the game, you agree?
lets move on
2: the not as included uses to riposte...
a: hunter, the pet triggers the **** ALL the time, all of the ****** time.... free damage for the limited time your in range? score one for rogues.... plus disarm = no wing clip, remember that
b: warlocks, non-imps also trigger it... free BIG hit on a warlock? true ****** story you knwo that helps vs sl/sl, arguably the hardest class-spec to kill in 1v1 or 2v2.... hemo -> riposte -> gouge = 90 energy for 2 hits and a combat break? i like that myself
c: healers (1v1), most healers aside from priests will melee to deal damage outside of dots... 1h windfury on a sham, paladins whackin ya since they got no attack spells, druid poppin ****** mode bear form.... all proccable ripostes, and extra burst dps anyone will guess helps keep a healer defensive... helps us take less damage, helps them go OOM fasters
d: healers (team), so you went for the paladin healer in 2v2... but wait, hes got a bm hunter friend..... that bm pet will ENSURE you got riposte up once every 4 seconds, let alone 6 needed by cooldown.... forcing a bubble 5 seconds faster, thats a win waiting to happen.....
e: team arena, you see riposte light up in a 5v5, you see the warrior... hes 5 yards away cuz your team is 4 dps zerg mode? disarm him, stop that hamstring for a lil bit more.... stop maybe 1 more ms that woulda killed someone..... takes some thinking... but riposte carries over target change, and with hunters being new flavors for 5v5 teams.... they chuck a pet on a rogue to keep him in combat right? thank you for the free disarms on your warrior.... since honestly... how many games in 5v5 are no rogue no warrior?
sure, 6 points... its costly, totally.... but what are you really giving up for it?
imp snd? imp kick.... 2 seconds of silence? expertise rating? you can live without it all easily
it comes down to a choice matter of 'do i want all this decent ****... or a solid ability that affects 1/3 of the classes, and affects them HARD'
thats my case.... and i will NEVER value a 2 second silence over a finishing 1600 crit for 10 energy
Well said Mongoose, that is pretty much exactly what I was thinking and was about to try to say only you probably said it better.
Another point to add, if you 2v2 you have no option of who you are going to fight. I'm about to start arena with a Resto-Druid so I will have to fight everything and everyone. Riposte will make a big difference especially with the million and one Warrior/Pally teams that seem to exist in my Battlegroup.
Another point to add, if you 2v2 you have no option of who you are going to fight. I'm about to start arena with a Resto-Druid so I will have to fight everything and everyone. Riposte will make a big difference especially with the million and one Warrior/Pally teams that seem to exist in my Battlegroup.
I do have Riposte right now.
The point is, I've had it for a whole week now, played well over 50 games between the 3 format... and I think it lit maybe all of 4 times.
The talent feels like a huge waste right now.
I'm in the 2k range in 2v2s, 3v3s and in the 1800s range in 5v5... I suppose Riposte might become super useful later on. Maybe at the higher rating people still go for the rogue first? But from my end, 2.3 saw the end of 'Kill the Rogue first!' from our ennemies.
All those attacks can also be dodged. Using evasion early solves this problem.
Evasion is our iceblock against most melee. They don't want to fight us because we'll just go 'untouchable'.
The same applies with your Hunter and Warlock exemple - why would they be sending their pet on me? If anything, pets are used to prevent healer from drinking much more then they are to deal damage.
Quite frankly, sometimes I feel like I'm the only one arena'ing on thse boards...
sure, 6 points... its costly, totally.... but what are you really giving up for it?
imp snd? imp kick.... 2 seconds of silence? expertise rating? you can live without it all easily
it comes down to a choice matter of 'do i want all this decent sh*t... or a solid ability that affects 1/3 of the classes, and affects them HARD'
thats my case.... and i will NEVER value a 2 second silence over a finishing 1600 crit for 10 energy
There's some huge disparity in your view of talents here Mongoose.
Keeping S&D up as 31/30 is much harder then it was as combat. No Ruthless/Reckleness means no free combo/energy after a finisher + no Combat Potency means that after doing a 5 point EA/KS, I'm out of energy and out of CB. I got to do an Hemo, and then I can use S&D. I'm looking at 2 more GCD before I get it back up and I need 60 energy, which is at least 6 second. And it sure doesn't feel like it stays up a long time. Any extra seconds help.
Furthermore, you yourself said 'it's free damage' refering to Riposte.
Well, what do you think 3 extra second on S&D is?
I can guanratee you that over the course of 10 games, Imp S&D will amount for a LOT more DPS then Riposte will. Because you'll use S&D every game. Quite often, you'll use it several times per game. Which can't be said for Riposte, even when you are actually fighting melee.
That's before you even factor in Expertise (Every point is a 1.25% to 2.5% dmg increase), which by itself will account for several thousand damage over the course of those same ten games.
Imp Kick is to me, the weakest Talent you lose from going Riposte... but it is a lost nonetheless.
You're going to have to explain to me how Riposte will help when the Paladin HoJ your druid, the Warrior gets on him and the Paladin judge that 'Can only run at normal speed' thing on him (Name escape me right now).
That's how Pld/War beat Druid/X. Not by trying to kill the druid's partner when they have the game's most efficient healer on their side.
Edited, Nov 20th 2007 12:12am by Tyrandor
The point is, I've had it for a whole week now, played well over 50 games between the 3 format... and I think it lit maybe all of 4 times.
The talent feels like a huge waste right now.
I'm in the 2k range in 2v2s, 3v3s and in the 1800s range in 5v5... I suppose Riposte might become super useful later on. Maybe at the higher rating people still go for the rogue first? But from my end, 2.3 saw the end of 'Kill the Rogue first!' from our ennemies.
Quote:
not only is it free damage via quick hit, and damage reduce via disarm... but you get 5% parry..... thats 5% chance to parry a KS, a warrior disarm, a opposing riposte, a gouge, a stormstrike that could have windfury'd your face off..... last time i checked... 1/2 points of nerves of steel = 5% stun resist... same thing for half the stuns in the game, you agree?
All those attacks can also be dodged. Using evasion early solves this problem.
Evasion is our iceblock against most melee. They don't want to fight us because we'll just go 'untouchable'.
The same applies with your Hunter and Warlock exemple - why would they be sending their pet on me? If anything, pets are used to prevent healer from drinking much more then they are to deal damage.
Quite frankly, sometimes I feel like I'm the only one arena'ing on thse boards...
Quote:
sure, 6 points... its costly, totally.... but what are you really giving up for it?
imp snd? imp kick.... 2 seconds of silence? expertise rating? you can live without it all easily
it comes down to a choice matter of 'do i want all this decent sh*t... or a solid ability that affects 1/3 of the classes, and affects them HARD'
thats my case.... and i will NEVER value a 2 second silence over a finishing 1600 crit for 10 energy
There's some huge disparity in your view of talents here Mongoose.
Keeping S&D up as 31/30 is much harder then it was as combat. No Ruthless/Reckleness means no free combo/energy after a finisher + no Combat Potency means that after doing a 5 point EA/KS, I'm out of energy and out of CB. I got to do an Hemo, and then I can use S&D. I'm looking at 2 more GCD before I get it back up and I need 60 energy, which is at least 6 second. And it sure doesn't feel like it stays up a long time. Any extra seconds help.
Furthermore, you yourself said 'it's free damage' refering to Riposte.
Well, what do you think 3 extra second on S&D is?
I can guanratee you that over the course of 10 games, Imp S&D will amount for a LOT more DPS then Riposte will. Because you'll use S&D every game. Quite often, you'll use it several times per game. Which can't be said for Riposte, even when you are actually fighting melee.
That's before you even factor in Expertise (Every point is a 1.25% to 2.5% dmg increase), which by itself will account for several thousand damage over the course of those same ten games.
Imp Kick is to me, the weakest Talent you lose from going Riposte... but it is a lost nonetheless.
Quote:
Another point to add, if you 2v2 you have no option of who you are going to fight. I'm about to start arena with a Resto-Druid so I will have to fight everything and everyone. Riposte will make a big difference especially with the million and one Warrior/Pally teams that seem to exist in my Battlegroup.
You're going to have to explain to me how Riposte will help when the Paladin HoJ your druid, the Warrior gets on him and the Paladin judge that 'Can only run at normal speed' thing on him (Name escape me right now).
That's how Pld/War beat Druid/X. Not by trying to kill the druid's partner when they have the game's most efficient healer on their side.
Edited, Nov 20th 2007 12:12am by Tyrandor
Actually, I was going to start a thread about Riposte earlier today, but seeing as I personally don't have it, I didn't really feel like I had the personal experience.
However, after searching through the top 2v2 and 3v3 rogues in a few battlegroups, I was disappointed to see that only about a third of them took Riposte, and only the 0/31/30 rogues. I didn't see a single deep combat build with Riposte.
Meh, I'm not sold on it. It's a nifty move, but it's situational, it has DR, and it's really only useful on a few classes.
However, after searching through the top 2v2 and 3v3 rogues in a few battlegroups, I was disappointed to see that only about a third of them took Riposte, and only the 0/31/30 rogues. I didn't see a single deep combat build with Riposte.
Meh, I'm not sold on it. It's a nifty move, but it's situational, it has DR, and it's really only useful on a few classes.
Jophiel wrote:
I managed to be both retarded and entertaining.
perhaps your right in the way the **** off high end arena tyr... but i know i used it umm about 11 times tonight alone? doing 1600 5v5 10 games
on fire all the time 1v1, on fire all the time in bg's
remember pvp is NOT just high end arena... tactics are different at 1500 then 1750 then 2200
at my mention of extra dodge vs gouge:
you say they can all be dodged? true
grab riposte, grab ghostly strike.... my otherwise 30% parry/dodge chance is now 50%... ill save evasion for when i REALLY need it, and let my more passive bonus's take care of 2-minutes-in gouge which woulda stops me from killing a healer before he gets a heal off
and i have saved a healer before doing this, so i know it could happen right back
in all honesty i havent tested much expertise in arena... but if its so good, 31-30 ar/prep can dump 2 out of its AP to get it... since that would yield more dps then 4% more ap at a baseline of what? 1600? 1700?
in 2v2 its very warrior heavy, 1v1 favors melee, bgs get rogues killed in seconds since... well who in their right mind would leave a rogue alone
cheat death proc + disarm into a ghostly strike could mean the difference in rogue vs rogue 1v1 or warrior for that matter
if i was PURELY high end arena, i might not get it.... since ya rogues dont tend to get hit first.... but its the pvp aspect of the game i (and a large portion of rogues) do... thats everywhere... and riposte 110% pulls its weight in gold overall in pvp
and for a move so good in solo pvp, solo pve, the bg farm, duel addicts like myself, clutch 1v1 end fights in arena and all of that.... well **** it, ill make myself gen a extra cp for snd to match the loss of imp snd
or i just will move talents from elsewhere
i know shadowstep has a MUCH harder time vs rogues and warriors if i didnt have it... prob enchance shaman too, they got fierce fast for raw-dawg straight up 1v1
its just like the nerves of steel argument... riposte is clutch, cuz well honestly, why does everyone value a 1/10 chance to resist moves that only paladin, pri, lock, rogue, and warrior do? ***** i dont include impact procs, thats like 1/100 on a fire blast or hitting molten armor, thats too ******** to count)
riposte has the same usage, some damage mitigation against one of our (at least) top 3 most feared opponents and is more consistant
you get hit with melee all fight long
you get hit with 3 fears at most 1v1
if expertise is such a big deal, then great for it... but thats a scaling value for sure... and you can just grab a lil pve gear if you want it
if you dont see the use in riposte, then dont grab it... but ill smile to myself when in a 2v2, my partner and the warriors healer go down... and its 1v1
cuz ill win that fight, you most likely wont... and thats 6 points well spent since i can recall that happening quite a lot, since my bg is littered warrior/healer
and a side note, i dont see evasion as our ice block, anything it really affects has a way around it except warrior.... evasion vs rogue? they shiv and get free cp ready for you... vs hunter for the ranged? give them trap CD time they wont mind... especially if theyre pet is behind you and pops intimidation... into scattershot into conc, and if that procs imp a sting to force cos is on ya too (unless u can clear poison)
realistically im probably overthinking the **** out of it all, but i like being prepared
on fire all the time 1v1, on fire all the time in bg's
remember pvp is NOT just high end arena... tactics are different at 1500 then 1750 then 2200
at my mention of extra dodge vs gouge:
you say they can all be dodged? true
grab riposte, grab ghostly strike.... my otherwise 30% parry/dodge chance is now 50%... ill save evasion for when i REALLY need it, and let my more passive bonus's take care of 2-minutes-in gouge which woulda stops me from killing a healer before he gets a heal off
and i have saved a healer before doing this, so i know it could happen right back
in all honesty i havent tested much expertise in arena... but if its so good, 31-30 ar/prep can dump 2 out of its AP to get it... since that would yield more dps then 4% more ap at a baseline of what? 1600? 1700?
in 2v2 its very warrior heavy, 1v1 favors melee, bgs get rogues killed in seconds since... well who in their right mind would leave a rogue alone
cheat death proc + disarm into a ghostly strike could mean the difference in rogue vs rogue 1v1 or warrior for that matter
if i was PURELY high end arena, i might not get it.... since ya rogues dont tend to get hit first.... but its the pvp aspect of the game i (and a large portion of rogues) do... thats everywhere... and riposte 110% pulls its weight in gold overall in pvp
and for a move so good in solo pvp, solo pve, the bg farm, duel addicts like myself, clutch 1v1 end fights in arena and all of that.... well **** it, ill make myself gen a extra cp for snd to match the loss of imp snd
or i just will move talents from elsewhere
i know shadowstep has a MUCH harder time vs rogues and warriors if i didnt have it... prob enchance shaman too, they got fierce fast for raw-dawg straight up 1v1
its just like the nerves of steel argument... riposte is clutch, cuz well honestly, why does everyone value a 1/10 chance to resist moves that only paladin, pri, lock, rogue, and warrior do? ***** i dont include impact procs, thats like 1/100 on a fire blast or hitting molten armor, thats too ******** to count)
riposte has the same usage, some damage mitigation against one of our (at least) top 3 most feared opponents and is more consistant
you get hit with melee all fight long
you get hit with 3 fears at most 1v1
if expertise is such a big deal, then great for it... but thats a scaling value for sure... and you can just grab a lil pve gear if you want it
if you dont see the use in riposte, then dont grab it... but ill smile to myself when in a 2v2, my partner and the warriors healer go down... and its 1v1
cuz ill win that fight, you most likely wont... and thats 6 points well spent since i can recall that happening quite a lot, since my bg is littered warrior/healer
and a side note, i dont see evasion as our ice block, anything it really affects has a way around it except warrior.... evasion vs rogue? they shiv and get free cp ready for you... vs hunter for the ranged? give them trap CD time they wont mind... especially if theyre pet is behind you and pops intimidation... into scattershot into conc, and if that procs imp a sting to force cos is on ya too (unless u can clear poison)
realistically im probably overthinking the **** out of it all, but i like being prepared
I don't have it. I have tried it, but I dont see myself ever speccing into it again. If I happen to get riposted it just means that I use shiv which is the same thing I use on a rogue using evasion. I definitly agree that 6 points is way too much to invest in it.
Recent Visitors: 430
All times are in CST
Anonymous Guests (430)
- Forums
- World of Warcraft
- Class Discussion
- Riposte: Yay or Nay?
© 2024 Fanbyte LLC