thankyou Gaudion. that made my day :-D
also good info about prot. i had thought i had read on here that reckoning and shield spikes were both useful, but only until your total voidance was higher. from what you're saying then 200 +spell damage is minimum for threat, but increasing spell damage beyond that (assumeably without losing avoidnce) is how you would boost you dps? i have a few prots in my guild and i've been trying to pass on what i learn here, but i want to make sure i'm not passing the wrong thing along to them.
Edit: tommy, you posted while i was typing apparently. ty also. for both the compliment and the corrections i know you have often made to what i say.
Edited, Nov 25th 2007 1:30pm by toolofjesus
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Ret Pallies, how's 2.3 treatin ya?Follow
toolofjesus wrote:
thankyou Gaudion. that made my day :-D
also good info about prot. i had thought i had read on here that reckoning and shield spikes were both useful, but only until your total voidance was higher. from what you're saying then 200 +spell damage is minimum for threat, but increasing spell damage beyond that (assumeably without losing avoidnce) is how you would boost you dps? i have a few prots in my guild and i've been trying to pass on what i learn here, but i want to make sure i'm not passing the wrong thing along to them.
also good info about prot. i had thought i had read on here that reckoning and shield spikes were both useful, but only until your total voidance was higher. from what you're saying then 200 +spell damage is minimum for threat, but increasing spell damage beyond that (assumeably without losing avoidnce) is how you would boost you dps? i have a few prots in my guild and i've been trying to pass on what i learn here, but i want to make sure i'm not passing the wrong thing along to them.
Honestly, Protadins aren't and shouldn't be concerned with their damage. The idea is that, because their holy damage generates 190% threat, they need to be doing as much holy damage as possible to set the threat threshold higher so the DPS can put out more damage without drawing aggro. Any damage they happen to cause is just a byproduct. However, that having been said, they do tend to cause a lot of damage, and they can potentially embarrass some DPS'ers if they're not on top of it.
White damage amounts to precisely squat in both DPS and threat for Prot Pallies, so yes, spell damage is what they're looking for. Prot Pallies need to hit the defense cap first, then get enough stamina to survive (I've heard numbers around 13000 HP, I'm not exactly sure what the mark is at this point), and finally, with gear options left available to you, get as much spell damage as possible to increase holy damage, and therefore, threat.
That's why you'll commonly (and should) see Prot Pallies wielding low-DPS swords that you might expect to see in a Mage's hand: they actually get more DPS and threat out of the +spell damage modifier (which applies to all of their holy damage, not just their seals and judgements) than the weapon's damage itself.
Edited, Nov 25th 2007 2:22pm by Gaudion
Also wanted to say how I appreciate a polite poster like you have been toolofjesus. Yes, been said, spell damage is the way to go. So far I have 246 spell damage on my max avoidance set, and it's been plenty sufficient to hold aggro on single and multiple targets throughout various Heroics and Kara/ZA. As my DPSers get better geared though, the need for more spell damage will increase.
As for being concerned about my damage, I don't know if that was indirectly targeted at me or not *wink wink*, but I recently downloaded a damage meter more for the benefit of my Paly than my DPS toons. Reason: I use it as a means to get my DPS to hit harder. If I'm 1st or 2nd on the meter, and holding threat is a non-issue, the DPS seem to get motivated to hit faster, harder, and however else you wanna put it, do more damage. No DPS likes being outdone, particularly by a tank. It works sometimes, other times not, but a threat meter doesn't always keep DPSers from pulling aggro either ;)
As for being concerned about my damage, I don't know if that was indirectly targeted at me or not *wink wink*, but I recently downloaded a damage meter more for the benefit of my Paly than my DPS toons. Reason: I use it as a means to get my DPS to hit harder. If I'm 1st or 2nd on the meter, and holding threat is a non-issue, the DPS seem to get motivated to hit faster, harder, and however else you wanna put it, do more damage. No DPS likes being outdone, particularly by a tank. It works sometimes, other times not, but a threat meter doesn't always keep DPSers from pulling aggro either ;)
thats also another good point. the relation between threat and dmg. one the biggest reasons i moved from Ret pre-patch. i'd say to myself i can be doing the same dmg with half the threat on my mage. i've gotten my Ret pally up to about 500dps in Kara pre-patch with a pally MT. this will probably be the week that i spec back, gear up, and give Ret another go.
as a pally tank i've experienced what it takes to keep the other classes performing at peak levels. did a guild run of Heroic Mech with a +1k spell Destro lock...http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Blade%27s+Edge&n=Waralerin . he put me to the test and the results were beautiful. now i feel confident about going back Ret and trying some other tanks on for size. i'm gonna keep this thread bumped for awhile me thinks.
as a pally tank i've experienced what it takes to keep the other classes performing at peak levels. did a guild run of Heroic Mech with a +1k spell Destro lock...http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Blade%27s+Edge&n=Waralerin . he put me to the test and the results were beautiful. now i feel confident about going back Ret and trying some other tanks on for size. i'm gonna keep this thread bumped for awhile me thinks.
thanks for all the advice. i try to read as much as i can around here to learn little faster. i also try to give some advice but being not as experanced as some it maybe miss given if so please correct me.
at what lvl do we start to get some better spell damage with out the lose of stats and armor. i like the weapons i saw in a post the other day but those was lvl 70 and i'm only lvl 46 atm. they had 130 and other had 121 spell damage and healing. so far i'm up to 3246 hp and 4964 armor at lvl 46 i've seen low lvl 50's 51-53 with less hp so hopeing i can slack some and pick up some more damage for soloing and more threat soon.
at what lvl do we start to get some better spell damage with out the lose of stats and armor. i like the weapons i saw in a post the other day but those was lvl 70 and i'm only lvl 46 atm. they had 130 and other had 121 spell damage and healing. so far i'm up to 3246 hp and 4964 armor at lvl 46 i've seen low lvl 50's 51-53 with less hp so hopeing i can slack some and pick up some more damage for soloing and more threat soon.
You'll start getting real spelldamage plate designed for paladins when you hit Outland.
Edited, Nov 26th 2007 6:20am by gwynhara
Edited, Nov 26th 2007 6:20am by gwynhara
tommyguns wrote:
this will probably be the week that i spec back, gear up, and give Ret another go.
haha, probably sad to say, but thats some of the best news i've heard today. well, compared to waking up at 3am to go out to the field with the Marines to train getting ready to go to Iraq, I guess its not too hard to do..... but its still awesome to hear. your posts about ret were largely why i decided to try a ret pally. since i'll be training more for the next couple months and then going overseas, i'll be enjoying ret through your posts. let me know how you like the 2.3 ret :)
i just respec'd tonight, full pvp spec: http://www.wowarmory.com/character-talents.xml?r=Blade%27s+Edge&n=Tommyguns
i swear i had better rings than that and my gems had some make-shift tank crap, so i popped some greenies in and went to AV. the results were as expected, as was the outcome(loss) http://www.geocities.com/tommy0guns/WoWScrnShot_112707_004750.jpg
i only ran 1 BG and i didn't have time to run any instances yet. tuesday brings more gear. all i can say is the CS pally is the new MS warrior.
edit: fwiw, that Tyrael guy underneath me is ret also...he liked to QQ alot. L2pally
Edited, Nov 27th 2007 1:26am by tommyguns
i swear i had better rings than that and my gems had some make-shift tank crap, so i popped some greenies in and went to AV. the results were as expected, as was the outcome(loss) http://www.geocities.com/tommy0guns/WoWScrnShot_112707_004750.jpg
i only ran 1 BG and i didn't have time to run any instances yet. tuesday brings more gear. all i can say is the CS pally is the new MS warrior.
edit: fwiw, that Tyrael guy underneath me is ret also...he liked to QQ alot. L2pally
Edited, Nov 27th 2007 1:26am by tommyguns
ktangent wrote:
Quote:
Indeed. It's why I actually have a solo/5 man set filled with crit gear.
Actually, if you spec arcane as a mage.... then you don't need a bunch of +hit and your raid gear can be your instance gear without a problem. Plus, raid gear usually has a ton more spell damage, stamina and int than gear you get from instances (thus the purplez vs bluez).
....Now... back to trying to figure out how to play my newly-retified-pally by reading these posts...
Yeah, I know, but I have a bunch of raid crit gear as well from back in the day when I was you and stupid. So I don't lose much damage(I actually gain a bit).
punkspider wrote:
so far i'm up to 3246 hp and 4964 armor at lvl 46 i've seen low lvl 50's 51-53 with less hp so hopeing i can slack some and pick up some more damage for soloing and more threat soon.
Actually, I'd recommend you do the reverse and just keep doing what you're doing and gear yourself like a Prot Warrior until you reach Outland. Get a good spell damage one-handed weapon if you can and as much (or as little) +int as necessary to sufficiently use your spells on the side, but other than that, it's not really necessary that you start worrying about how much spell damage you have until 60+ when the other class' DPS (and therefore, threat) starts to explode.
Just wanted to say, Ive grouped with several Ret pallies, scince the patch.
Its a fine line between pulling aggro and doing good dps still. Blizz would be well to spend a bit more time on it.
That said, One pally was 2nd in dps, in a very well geared group. Impressive. I also saw him back off, when his aggro was getting up there, wich also showed smarts in playing.
However, as mentioned, I still would take a dps class with CC abilities, wether they were needed or not.
On the off subject stuff, I thoroughly enjoy pally tanks, whether I am on my mage lock or druid, I feel safe pretty much going all out, makes for fast parties, smooth runs, and less deaths! Glad to see prot get some buff up too :).
Oh and btw my pally is lvl 50 now, but going Holy, so I can still heal when needed in raids, and leave my druid feral <3.
Its a fine line between pulling aggro and doing good dps still. Blizz would be well to spend a bit more time on it.
That said, One pally was 2nd in dps, in a very well geared group. Impressive. I also saw him back off, when his aggro was getting up there, wich also showed smarts in playing.
However, as mentioned, I still would take a dps class with CC abilities, wether they were needed or not.
On the off subject stuff, I thoroughly enjoy pally tanks, whether I am on my mage lock or druid, I feel safe pretty much going all out, makes for fast parties, smooth runs, and less deaths! Glad to see prot get some buff up too :).
Oh and btw my pally is lvl 50 now, but going Holy, so I can still heal when needed in raids, and leave my druid feral <3.
I'd have to agree that 'One pallies experience is not going to be true for all", 'cept for the fact that the guy has 1-2 dps class as alts at lvl 70 and he manages to squeeze some serious dps out of them despite the fact that they are undergeared. He can be wearing blues with a smattering of purples on his dps alt and make people in full epics work for it.
He came in as Ret, full epics, all the enchants, raid consumables with one of the best 2h Tier 5 weapons that drops. He placed where we would expect a rogue in pvp gear, or perhaps epics with an equal amount of blues would pop.
He parsed like this zone wide over a couple nights. In the end we couldn't justify bringing him when a Rogue, Hunter or almost any other dps class would bring more damage, even with +3% crit factored in.
He came in as Ret, full epics, all the enchants, raid consumables with one of the best 2h Tier 5 weapons that drops. He placed where we would expect a rogue in pvp gear, or perhaps epics with an equal amount of blues would pop.
He parsed like this zone wide over a couple nights. In the end we couldn't justify bringing him when a Rogue, Hunter or almost any other dps class would bring more damage, even with +3% crit factored in.
Bode - 100 Holy Paladin - Lightbringer
Scholar
27 posts
When people look at dps only, yes paladins arent viable.
However paladin is a support class, even the 'dps version' of them. Think of 2% more damage from the aura (and 10% more holy damage). 3% crit for the entire raid. With last buffs the protection paladin is gaining popularity and a boost of 10% holy damage for them means an immense increase in TPS, which means DPS can go nuts.
If other paladins run in to apply seal of wisdom & light for extra mana regeneration and healing for dps classes. The crusader strike then keeps the seals up the entire fight. When all melee in raid have a 40% (roughtly) chance on hit to heal 95 this adds up to a really nice amount, saving some mana from healers and helping top off. The 40% (roughly) to get 74 mana for the cast dps helps keeping them in fight.
In addition you get another blessing (especially handy for 10 man raids), BoP and lay on hands for an 'oh ****' moment.
Adding up all this support utility a ret paladin can be seen as a class with immense raid utility bringing along average dps. If raids were only about dps then people would simply use locks teamed with shadow priests and resto shamans.
However paladin is a support class, even the 'dps version' of them. Think of 2% more damage from the aura (and 10% more holy damage). 3% crit for the entire raid. With last buffs the protection paladin is gaining popularity and a boost of 10% holy damage for them means an immense increase in TPS, which means DPS can go nuts.
If other paladins run in to apply seal of wisdom & light for extra mana regeneration and healing for dps classes. The crusader strike then keeps the seals up the entire fight. When all melee in raid have a 40% (roughtly) chance on hit to heal 95 this adds up to a really nice amount, saving some mana from healers and helping top off. The 40% (roughly) to get 74 mana for the cast dps helps keeping them in fight.
In addition you get another blessing (especially handy for 10 man raids), BoP and lay on hands for an 'oh ****' moment.
Adding up all this support utility a ret paladin can be seen as a class with immense raid utility bringing along average dps. If raids were only about dps then people would simply use locks teamed with shadow priests and resto shamans.
Zornov wrote:
Hey Ret Pallies,how's your dps in 2.3 with your talent tree buffs?
I've ran Kara, and heroic BF since the patch, I was #1 in DPS in both. My gear is good (5/5 Merc Gladiator, season 2 sword, etc) and I think part of it was me out-gearing the DPS classes. During the kara run, I was in the windfury group which helps a great deal + kara has undead mobs. A windfury proc isn't a death sentence like it was pre 2.3, really I'm pulling threat now only if I pop AW, or I get a string of lucky (or unlucky...) crits.
Arenas are more of the same, I don't feel all that much more powerful in post 2.3. Although I ran with an all paladin 5v5 team and went 7-3 last night. That was fun.
i agree, being able to "work" it is a serious thing. Someone can squeeze a lot of dps out of a paladin if they know how.. we actually raided kara all last week with a ret pally!
oop, there i am. got my daily too :D
http://www.geocities.com/tommy0guns/WoWScrnShot_120207_114808.jpg
http://www.geocities.com/tommy0guns/WoWScrnShot_120207_114808.jpg
Been running the various instances around Outland on my Elemental Shaman. I still have yet to see a Retribution Paladin place higher than third or fourth on a meter, even when I'm giving them Strength of Earth and Windfury. Thus far the mark of a good Retribution Paladin has been the ability to edge out the tank in damage done. ¬_¬
6 posts
The short answer is Awesome! Yeah, I have noticed about a 30-50% increase in my DPS ability because of these last two patches.
Oh yeah, and one more thing.
/clap
Edited, Dec 5th 2007 2:59am by ReptilesBlade
Oh yeah, and one more thing.
Quote:
I've been retri for a couple of levels now (just respecced back to prot since I love tanking), and they do put out some pretty good damage - not compareable with real dps classes, but still a-okay. I think what ppl fail to see is, that a retribution paladin ain't a dps class. It's a suport class, just like shadow priests. They can do some damage, but where they shine is theire ability to make the run smooth, with off healing and offtanking (when needed), further more they now come with some buffing ability + 3% critt for the entire party.
/clap
Edited, Dec 5th 2007 2:59am by ReptilesBlade
Gaudion wrote:
Been running the various instances around Outland on my Elemental Shaman. I still have yet to see a Retribution Paladin place higher than third or fourth on a meter, even when I'm giving them Strength of Earth and Windfury. Thus far the mark of a good Retribution Paladin has been the ability to edge out the tank in damage done. ¬_¬
this makes me sad. my ret is leve 66. i ran scholo with a 70 mage and lock and 69 healadin to help a 60 lock with his mount quest. i came in first with 40% of the damage done. mage was secnd at 25%.... these stories of ret pallies getting beat at all, but especially coming in 3rd is quite saddening. i wish more of them would actually learn the class and gear/spec/play ret right.
to be honest though, i haven't seen another ret pally come close to me in damage. i always try to help them improve. its not hard to gear right just questing and getting instance gear. the ret spec is capable of soo much more than what most rets seem to get out of it.
oh, and i need to download fraps on my new comp so i can take screen shots... i know i've been a lot of talk but never a screen shot. i'll rectify that asap.
Fraps = videos.
For screenshots just hit "Print Screen" on your keyboard.
Back to the topic at hand, there's one thing I feel the need to mention about this
Running lower level instances is much more friendly damage-meter-wise to the melee classes with instant abilities. While your Mage is casting his 2-second spells, you're just beating the crap out of the mob and it's likely that he won't have enough time for a second spell. (That always varies depending on the mobs you're fighting, it's just to point out that a caster's damage potential is only really revealed during a fight longer than 10 seconds)
Also, since the instance is of lower level, I doubt he was pushing himself to his limits. You know you're gonna pwn the instance anyway so why try to give it your all and drink every 10 seconds? I bet he could've AoE'd his way through, drinking between every pull or so and he'd have gotten away with 80% of damage done.
Damage meters are tricky and can too easily mislead. In raid settings it's a different matter, of course.
For screenshots just hit "Print Screen" on your keyboard.
Back to the topic at hand, there's one thing I feel the need to mention about this
Quote:
my ret is leve 66. i ran scholo with a 70 mage and lock and 69 healadin to help a 60 lock with his mount quest. i came in first with 40% of the damage done.
Running lower level instances is much more friendly damage-meter-wise to the melee classes with instant abilities. While your Mage is casting his 2-second spells, you're just beating the crap out of the mob and it's likely that he won't have enough time for a second spell. (That always varies depending on the mobs you're fighting, it's just to point out that a caster's damage potential is only really revealed during a fight longer than 10 seconds)
Also, since the instance is of lower level, I doubt he was pushing himself to his limits. You know you're gonna pwn the instance anyway so why try to give it your all and drink every 10 seconds? I bet he could've AoE'd his way through, drinking between every pull or so and he'd have gotten away with 80% of damage done.
Damage meters are tricky and can too easily mislead. In raid settings it's a different matter, of course.
Selverein wrote:
Fraps = videos.
For screenshots just hit "Print Screen" on your keyboard.
For screenshots just hit "Print Screen" on your keyboard.
yeah, i know. but fraps does screen shots too. its the ony way i managed to do them on my old comp.... i am not the brightest one around and i never could figure out where the pics went when i took them with "Print Screen"....
Selverein wrote:
Back to the topic at hand, there's one thing I feel the need to mention about this
Running lower level instances is much more friendly damage-meter-wise to the melee classes with instant abilities. While your Mage is casting his 2-second spells, you're just beating the crap out of the mob and it's likely that he won't have enough time for a second spell. (That always varies depending on the mobs you're fighting, it's just to point out that a caster's damage potential is only really revealed during a fight longer than 10 seconds)
Also, since the instance is of lower level, I doubt he was pushing himself to his limits. You know you're gonna pwn the instance anyway so why try to give it your all and drink every 10 seconds? I bet he could've AoE'd his way through, drinking between every pull or so and he'd have gotten away with 80% of damage done.
Damage meters are tricky and can too easily mislead. In raid settings it's a different matter, of course.
Quote:
my ret is leve 66. i ran scholo with a 70 mage and lock and 69 healadin to help a 60 lock with his mount quest. i came in first with 40% of the damage done.
Running lower level instances is much more friendly damage-meter-wise to the melee classes with instant abilities. While your Mage is casting his 2-second spells, you're just beating the crap out of the mob and it's likely that he won't have enough time for a second spell. (That always varies depending on the mobs you're fighting, it's just to point out that a caster's damage potential is only really revealed during a fight longer than 10 seconds)
Also, since the instance is of lower level, I doubt he was pushing himself to his limits. You know you're gonna pwn the instance anyway so why try to give it your all and drink every 10 seconds? I bet he could've AoE'd his way through, drinking between every pull or so and he'd have gotten away with 80% of damage done.
Damage meters are tricky and can too easily mislead. In raid settings it's a different matter, of course.
i suppose you might be right. i don't know much about playing a mage (my only mage is level 11.... haha.) what i do know is i've done mid 60's outlands instances with 70's and have beat that mage (and another) that lock and a hunter all being 70. i did mana tombs at 65 with 2 68 rogues and the one beat me and the other was right behind me. the three of us were within a 3% range though. anyway.
maybe scholo was a bad instance to judge in. but things like that pretty much sound like a weak arguement to me... i will say the mage and the lock are um, still working on gearing up to heroics/kara level stats.... whereas from what tommyguns and chood said, my 66 ret is pretty close to where she needs to be in stats. so maybe the difference is in the gear. i don't mean to be arguementative, but what some people say and what i see from my own play just don't match up...
If I had to take a guess, I'd say the real variable here is the player's skills.
Perhaps you, like a handful of others, are especially skilled at playing a Retro Pally to its fullest, while the Mage/Lock/Hunter might have been only decent.
For example, I'm in a rather casual guild where player skills do not matter so much. One of the officers and most active players, a Lock, is a rather casual player. While you'd expect a Lock to be really high on the damage charts, she is always in the lower range. And she does not lack the gear.
So yah, maybe you're just really good.
Perhaps you, like a handful of others, are especially skilled at playing a Retro Pally to its fullest, while the Mage/Lock/Hunter might have been only decent.
For example, I'm in a rather casual guild where player skills do not matter so much. One of the officers and most active players, a Lock, is a rather casual player. While you'd expect a Lock to be really high on the damage charts, she is always in the lower range. And she does not lack the gear.
So yah, maybe you're just really good.
skill and knowhow play a huge part. to touch on what Selv said, melee friendly instances is bogus. knowhow is the difference between throwing a pyro on a dead target and throwing a round of scorches on an almost dead target.
same applies to playing pally. gotta know the whens, hows, and wheres. if you are consecrating and JoCing like a fool you will surely miss some sweet SoC procs and CS cooldowns. then there is maxmizing AW, bubble fighting, blessing/judgement swapping, etc.
same applies to playing pally. gotta know the whens, hows, and wheres. if you are consecrating and JoCing like a fool you will surely miss some sweet SoC procs and CS cooldowns. then there is maxmizing AW, bubble fighting, blessing/judgement swapping, etc.
i made up a new word for this: "pally-sacked". thats when the pally bubble blitz' you and drops a hurt bomb. or it can mean when a pally kills you, lifts his plate skirt and teabags your dead corpse. pally-sacked. http://www.geocities.com/tommy0guns/WoWScrnShot_120507_210827.jpg
BG is a pally's home http://www.geocities.com/tommy0guns/WoWScrnShot_120507_221428.jpg
and i spec'd PoJ http://www.geocities.com/tommy0guns/WoWScrnShot_120507_213954.jpg
and i spec'd PoJ http://www.geocities.com/tommy0guns/WoWScrnShot_120507_213954.jpg
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