HAHA! So my 210 isn't THAT far off the mark!
Take that Bembridge Scholars!
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Give it some undisclosed amount of hit rating.
It only makes sense that a master of "bullseye at 2000 yards" type attacks would somehow be able to empower his fellow fighters with some sense of accuracy.
It only makes sense that a master of "bullseye at 2000 yards" type attacks would somehow be able to empower his fellow fighters with some sense of accuracy.
Skipped over most of the post.
Especcially with the recent changes in 2.3 MM hunters are still viable raid slots. They do comparable damage to BM hunters, and if specced MM/SV like I was, still have almost the same CC ability (-Wyvern of course).
If TSA started getting buffed, People would scream even more about Hunters needing a nerf, as this last patch had everybody who even thought of doing Arena against a Aimed spec hunter a bad idea (don't ask me, I hear it on my server) and has now made Aimed specced hunters a luxury in Arena and everybody asking for one.
I for one think MM hunters are fine (trust me, this is from the horses mouth) and do not need any sort of buff.
Especcially with the recent changes in 2.3 MM hunters are still viable raid slots. They do comparable damage to BM hunters, and if specced MM/SV like I was, still have almost the same CC ability (-Wyvern of course).
If TSA started getting buffed, People would scream even more about Hunters needing a nerf, as this last patch had everybody who even thought of doing Arena against a Aimed spec hunter a bad idea (don't ask me, I hear it on my server) and has now made Aimed specced hunters a luxury in Arena and everybody asking for one.
I for one think MM hunters are fine (trust me, this is from the horses mouth) and do not need any sort of buff.
Okay, the world is officially screwed up.
North is asking for some love to be given to the MM spec and Caldone is arguing the opposite.
I need a stiff drink... and I don't drink...
North is asking for some love to be given to the MM spec and Caldone is arguing the opposite.
I need a stiff drink... and I don't drink...
Quote:
North is asking for some love to be given to the MM spec and Caldone is arguing the opposite.
Actually, this makes perfect sense. Look at WHY they are asking for love (or no love). What North is saying is that in order to be raid viable, MM needs a buff. What Caldone is saying is that MM is raid viable, and doesnt need a buff. In other words:
North thinks MM is inferior to BM and SV, but should be brought up (to make everything fair).
Caldone thinks MM is either on par with or superior to BM and SV, and therefore doesn't need to be brought up (since everything is fair).
So basically what you said is true, but not a change in view - it's the same view expressed in the double negative (meaning the circumstances change so the description changes), but it still has a positive correlation in comparison with their original POV.
thing is, Caldone thinks MM are raid viable, but i don't see anyone else saying that. Either all other MM dont understand how to get their dps higher and only caldone does, or caldone's raid leader (if it's not him himself... sorry, i dont know) is just letting him in anyway because the raid doesnt NEED more dps (meaning, he isnt really doing as much dps as an equivalently geared BM).
I say TSA gets a scaling AP buff and all MM hunters get Darkmoon Card: Wrath... viola! no need for crit, and pure AP hunters with a very nice TSA buff.
I say TSA gets a scaling AP buff and all MM hunters get Darkmoon Card: Wrath... viola! no need for crit, and pure AP hunters with a very nice TSA buff.
Before talking about how much of a buff TSA should or should not get, can we please talk about why we need to actually buff MM?
Please name me a single class in this game for which all three talent trees are raid viable. Most classes have a optimum spec for raids and such. Why do we need all of our three talent trees to be equally good in raids?
If MM where broken there would be reason for a revamp. However that is not the case. MM is good for leveling, it has nice burst damage and is currently the strongest spec for 3v3 and 5v5 arena. The spec is good in 5mans and with a SV subspec good for heroics.
The different talent specs should allow the player to specialize his toon for different tasks.
So, if you want to PvP he'll probably spec MM or BM, but SV will be a bit weaker than the other two trees (traps are capped at 10 seconds, no scatter shot, no silencing shot, no CC immunity).
If you like the big numbers you'll spec MM. You'll do the bigger crits, have more burst, but the overall damage will be a little lower as BM.
If you want to dish out maximum DPS you'll spec BM.
If you are more the supporting type of player you'll likely chose SV. Those raiding will go for EW and go insane on stacking agi even to the point of hurting their own damage to push the melee DDs.
However if you spec for SV-raid-spec, make sure that you are the only SV hunter in your raid group and hope that when you search for a raid group, that there isn't already a SV hunter :-)
If you want to be CC king you also chose SV, but you spec rather different from a SV raiding spec.
So, can someone please answer why you want to fix something that is not broken?
Please name me a single class in this game for which all three talent trees are raid viable. Most classes have a optimum spec for raids and such. Why do we need all of our three talent trees to be equally good in raids?
If MM where broken there would be reason for a revamp. However that is not the case. MM is good for leveling, it has nice burst damage and is currently the strongest spec for 3v3 and 5v5 arena. The spec is good in 5mans and with a SV subspec good for heroics.
The different talent specs should allow the player to specialize his toon for different tasks.
So, if you want to PvP he'll probably spec MM or BM, but SV will be a bit weaker than the other two trees (traps are capped at 10 seconds, no scatter shot, no silencing shot, no CC immunity).
If you like the big numbers you'll spec MM. You'll do the bigger crits, have more burst, but the overall damage will be a little lower as BM.
If you want to dish out maximum DPS you'll spec BM.
If you are more the supporting type of player you'll likely chose SV. Those raiding will go for EW and go insane on stacking agi even to the point of hurting their own damage to push the melee DDs.
However if you spec for SV-raid-spec, make sure that you are the only SV hunter in your raid group and hope that when you search for a raid group, that there isn't already a SV hunter :-)
If you want to be CC king you also chose SV, but you spec rather different from a SV raiding spec.
So, can someone please answer why you want to fix something that is not broken?
PvE BM = SV > MM
PvP BM = MM = SV (granted traps are on CD, but you leave out the insane crits and wyvern sting from SV, as well as shorter trap CD's).
So basically you have one spec which is subpar to the others in some areas and equal in others. For PvP I'd much rather have BM. Intimidate is just as powerful as silencing shot IMO, and it locks down more than casters. Some people may want to go survival for the 10% extra health, shorter CD on traps, wyvern sting, and a higher dodge/crit chance. You can still get scatter shot on a survival build.
For mages, you have arcane which can build on a fire or ice build, and then fire and frost. All three have advantages. Fire is generally regarded as a group spec, frost as an AoE spec, and arcane as a PvP spec. But there is a difference, and that is that each excels. Marksmanship does not really excel at anything. It's moderate in PvP, BM is still easier for soloing, and BM and SV trump it in raids.
In other words, it needs a buff!
PvP BM = MM = SV (granted traps are on CD, but you leave out the insane crits and wyvern sting from SV, as well as shorter trap CD's).
So basically you have one spec which is subpar to the others in some areas and equal in others. For PvP I'd much rather have BM. Intimidate is just as powerful as silencing shot IMO, and it locks down more than casters. Some people may want to go survival for the 10% extra health, shorter CD on traps, wyvern sting, and a higher dodge/crit chance. You can still get scatter shot on a survival build.
For mages, you have arcane which can build on a fire or ice build, and then fire and frost. All three have advantages. Fire is generally regarded as a group spec, frost as an AoE spec, and arcane as a PvP spec. But there is a difference, and that is that each excels. Marksmanship does not really excel at anything. It's moderate in PvP, BM is still easier for soloing, and BM and SV trump it in raids.
In other words, it needs a buff!
skribs wrote:
PvE BM = SV > MM
PvP BM = MM = SV (granted traps are on CD, but you leave out the insane crits and wyvern sting from SV, as well as shorter trap CD's).
PvP BM = MM = SV (granted traps are on CD, but you leave out the insane crits and wyvern sting from SV, as well as shorter trap CD's).
Your PVE equation is somewhat correct. Keep in mind that more than 1 SV hunter does not make sense in a raid group. A second or third SV hunter will be worse as a MM specced hunters as their damage without EW is slightly inferior to MM (perhaps except with very high end gear where crit becomes better).
Thus, you'll see something like this: BM = 1SV > MM > SV
For PvP I believe MM is the strongest spec. You can have both, Survivalist and Endurance training (+15% to HP). You'll have the hardest hitting shots (and damage spikes are better than smaller hits which occur more often). You have scatter shot and silencing shot.
Silencing shot is better than Intimidation. Intimidation has a 60second CD. And also very important, your pet has to attack the target you want to stun.
In arena PvP I often use my pet to lock down one opponent with those interrupts while I focus on another target to kill.
Silencing shot you can use on the healer, while focusing a mage while my pet interrupts an opposing hunter. That flexibility is what makes MM better than BM here.
The CC immunity in BM is really nice, but this becomes much less important in 5v5 where you can easily heal through the damage of a single hunter and the fights usually take a lot longer.
For PvP it would look somewhat like this: MM > BM = SV
However keep in mind that a SV build focused on PvP might look a lot different from a build used for raiding or for 5mans while the BM build will see only few changes.
skribs wrote:
Marksmanship does not really excel at anything. It's moderate in PvP, BM is still easier for soloing, and BM and SV trump it in raids.
MM is the strongest spec for PvP, is still competitive for soling (as opposed to SV which really sucks when soloing stuff).
I don't see why it needs a buff.
MM has the perception of a bad RAID spec. That's all that matters. Not all Raid leaders have this perception, but most do.
There are degrees of 'buffing' that can be done to change that perception. What degree that is needed is what is under discussion. If you feel it doesn't need a buff, that's cool, but for a normal end-game MM hunter, your best odds of getting a consistent Raid slot are if you aren't MM spec. North's PoV tends to be the one held by most folks in WoW these days.
So, to answer Mulgrin's question of "why" all specs need to be Raid viable... BECAUSE, raid is a common type of gaining gear/gold. PvP Arena/BG is another. You might not be optimal for a given role, but you should NEVER be so 'sub optimal' that you can't do your job in ANY type of combat just because you are spec X. Spec needs to be tayloring for playstyle, but unless your playstyle is hyper lazy, you should be able to at least fight anywhere competantly if you (as the player) have the skills needed to do so. Focus should be on player skill, not spec. Boot someone because they need to L2P first, not because of their class/spec.
If you want to do just RAID's then spec for optimal Raiding. If you want to do just PvP then spec optimal for just PvP. If you want to do a little of everything, you shouldn't be embarassed by whatever spec you are unless it wouldn't even work for PvE! Let there be true utility Hunters... you might find that they might end up being the best players around.
In light of the double-trap nerf, IMO it becomes almost MORE important to have an MM spec in the Raid, so it might be true that TSA doesn't need a buff, however, if it got even a small one, it might turn perceptions around without actually changing the total power. SV & BM hunters will definitely do better dps under TSA from an MM hunter nearby.
So, now that we can't double-trap, we will need more dps to burn down targets faster or the wipes will be coming much faster as you will have fewer mobs under CC. Maybe a 2-4dps boost to hunters as a whole will let them do this better? I'm just tossing out a number here. We do need to consider the roles of the spec in a RAID, but every spec should be okay to BE in a RAID. It's okay for all that spec's slots to be full and say "Sorry, we are maxxed out on MM hunters", at least I could go find one that isn't...
Edit: MM isn't as strong on PvP due to its reliance on crits. Becoming uncrittable is very common in PvP these days. That hurts MM and SV. The only thing MM brings to the PvP table is Scatter & Silence. I haven't seen an Aimed spec PvP video yet so I can't say what kind of impact it has. I'd have to say little if you remove crits from the equation... there is probably a better dps rotation in the time aimed can fire if you remove crits. Aimed used to be all about those huge crits so I've yet to be convinced that Aimed works as a viable rotation in PvP.
Hmmm... maybe I should flag PvP and go test it out for myself, I hear Nagrand is nice this time of year.
Edited, Nov 16th 2007 9:31am by sloshot
There are degrees of 'buffing' that can be done to change that perception. What degree that is needed is what is under discussion. If you feel it doesn't need a buff, that's cool, but for a normal end-game MM hunter, your best odds of getting a consistent Raid slot are if you aren't MM spec. North's PoV tends to be the one held by most folks in WoW these days.
So, to answer Mulgrin's question of "why" all specs need to be Raid viable... BECAUSE, raid is a common type of gaining gear/gold. PvP Arena/BG is another. You might not be optimal for a given role, but you should NEVER be so 'sub optimal' that you can't do your job in ANY type of combat just because you are spec X. Spec needs to be tayloring for playstyle, but unless your playstyle is hyper lazy, you should be able to at least fight anywhere competantly if you (as the player) have the skills needed to do so. Focus should be on player skill, not spec. Boot someone because they need to L2P first, not because of their class/spec.
If you want to do just RAID's then spec for optimal Raiding. If you want to do just PvP then spec optimal for just PvP. If you want to do a little of everything, you shouldn't be embarassed by whatever spec you are unless it wouldn't even work for PvE! Let there be true utility Hunters... you might find that they might end up being the best players around.
In light of the double-trap nerf, IMO it becomes almost MORE important to have an MM spec in the Raid, so it might be true that TSA doesn't need a buff, however, if it got even a small one, it might turn perceptions around without actually changing the total power. SV & BM hunters will definitely do better dps under TSA from an MM hunter nearby.
So, now that we can't double-trap, we will need more dps to burn down targets faster or the wipes will be coming much faster as you will have fewer mobs under CC. Maybe a 2-4dps boost to hunters as a whole will let them do this better? I'm just tossing out a number here. We do need to consider the roles of the spec in a RAID, but every spec should be okay to BE in a RAID. It's okay for all that spec's slots to be full and say "Sorry, we are maxxed out on MM hunters", at least I could go find one that isn't...
Edit: MM isn't as strong on PvP due to its reliance on crits. Becoming uncrittable is very common in PvP these days. That hurts MM and SV. The only thing MM brings to the PvP table is Scatter & Silence. I haven't seen an Aimed spec PvP video yet so I can't say what kind of impact it has. I'd have to say little if you remove crits from the equation... there is probably a better dps rotation in the time aimed can fire if you remove crits. Aimed used to be all about those huge crits so I've yet to be convinced that Aimed works as a viable rotation in PvP.
Hmmm... maybe I should flag PvP and go test it out for myself, I hear Nagrand is nice this time of year.
Edited, Nov 16th 2007 9:31am by sloshot
Quote:
or caldone's raid leader (if it's not him himself... sorry, i dont know) is just letting him in anyway because the raid doesnt NEED more dps (meaning, he isnt really doing as much dps as an equivalently geared BM).
Ug....
I did comparible DPS to other classes AND I had dumped enough points into SV to be a "chain trapping god"
Therefore I was a valuable raid slot holder for any raids. That and I have been in guilds that don't give a sh*t what spec you are, as long as you do your job to the best of your ability.
Quote:
Marksmanship does not really excel at anything. It's moderate in PvP, BM is still easier for soloing, and BM and SV trump it in raids.
Uh huh... yeah I soooo want to slap you right now...
I have been MM for almost a year and a half (until the latest respec), and I don't know if it was just me, or my playstyle, or what, but MM does not need a buff. I could compete on DPS whith any (equally geared) class, and you have alot of tools you can bring with you if you spec MM/SV.
Either people need to learn the tricks of an MM hunter, or I was doing something different that worked.
Go ahead... rate me down, I just call it like it is.
Edit:
Quote:
MM isn't as strong on PvP due to its reliance on crits. Becoming uncrittable is very common in PvP these days. That hurts MM and SV. The only thing MM brings to the PvP table is Scatter & Silence. I haven't seen an Aimed spec PvP video yet so I can't say what kind of impact it has. I'd have to say little if you remove crits from the equation... there is probably a better dps rotation in the time aimed can fire if you remove crits. Aimed used to be all about those huge crits so I've yet to be convinced that Aimed works as a viable rotation in PvP.
MM is huge in PVP due to it's NON RELIANCE on crits. We don't have to crit to do huge amounts of burst damage.
Also, in Arena, (2v2) You kill off the squishy, trap the other guy, then Aimed Shot/Multi-Shot/Arcane Shot him, he runs at you, you trap him again, and you can repeate that whole scenario till the other dude is pissed off and dead, and screaming hunters need to be nerfed.
Edited, Nov 16th 2007 9:37am by Caldone
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