A guildie of mine (Hunter) asked me a question today. Why didn't Blizzard just make Trueshot Aura scale with Attack Power like Traps and Serpent Sting? He said it as if it was a very obvious solution to it's crappy scaling, and I kind of agree with him. Why the hell haven't we thought of this before, and if we did, why don't I know about it?
This is hereby a quest for knowledge on this matter.
I am personally fond of the fact that Marksman Hunters got their noses thoroughly rubbed in their own ***** when TBC came out. The only acceptable raidbuild got kicked in the nuts after terrorizing anyone with a BM or Surv specc. This was a very good thing, and immensely satisfying.
However, I am a proponent of the fact that All trees of all classes should be just as viable in a raid. Paladins should be able and allowed to DPS if they really want to, heal or tank if they want to do that. Druids should be fully capable of playing casters in a raid without being stigmatized and Shamans should be able to play as an Axewielding totemdropper of death if that is their idea of fun.
But I can't really say these things if I block a tree from being an allowed maintree in a talent specc for my Raid Hunters. So, we need to figure out a way for Marksmen to still be viable past Karazhan. So why not make Trueshot Aura scale with AP like EW scales with Agility, and FI scales with the Damage of the group? If nothing else, it would make Marksman Hunters welcome again into a physical DPS group as well as give Marksmen a reason to exist.
Let's face it. 125 ap is just too low a number to matter these days.
Number Crunchers! I CHOOSE YOU! Get to it, and do some calculations. If we can make Trueshot Aura useful again through a scaling system, and have the math to prove it, we can actually make a suggestion on the O-Boards that just might make all three talenttrees viable again.
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Trueshot Aura revamp?Follow
I don't see why we have to change/buff MM spec at the moment.
Pre BC hunter pets had a hard time surviving in raids after BWL and everyone complained. With BC those issues where adressed (at least on most encounters) and BM got buffed to the dominating raid spec. But unless you are in the real endgame the difference between those specs is not that huge.
True MM cannot compete with BM spec in raids and SV spec will be better for a single hunter per raid group than any other spec.
However the spec is not that bad (the difference in DPS is what? about 10% DPS?).
MM is great for PvP (higher burst damage; scatter shot; Silencing shot and still some talent points left to get your HP up in BM and SV).
As long as a spec is not dead for all purposes I don't see why it should get a buff.
There will always be a powerhouse for raids. Every other class has its "best" specs (except hybrid classes who have a tree for every role, although not every talent tree might make them competitive for that role).
If Blizz would buff TSA it will either still be worse as BM and all hardcore-raiders will still be BMS or it will be better than BM again and every hardcore-raider will spec back to MM :-) However it will be difficult as hell to balance those specs to a point where several talent trees are equally good for raids (and as all specs will scale at a different pace you'll never find a balance for all talent trees regardless of the hunter's gear).
Additionally for everyone who is not heavy into raiding or PvP spec is not that important. You'll always have some die-hard fans of a certain spec (Pre BC Sayis anyone?; Post BC Caldone and many other die-hard MMs) and you still can come to a raid with a non-perfect spec as long as your raid group is ok with that (we still have a MM hunter in our raid pool, he just dislikes BM and thus will stay MM at which he does decent damage).
Another problem with a scaling TSA would be that it is a 31 point talent. After getting TSA you still have 30 talent points left (with the next expansion and 10 more talent points it might raise additional balancing problems).
TSA is a very nice buff for one single talent point. Why make it even better? The rest of MM tree does scale with gear, but is outperformed by the 20% attack speed boost of BM combined with ranged weapons having a rather restricted speed range (a fast high-DPS weapon with a weapon speed around 2.3 would perhaps make MM a much stronger spec for raids).
Sorry for the wall of text, basically my question would be: "Do we really need to buff the MM tree?"
Pre BC hunter pets had a hard time surviving in raids after BWL and everyone complained. With BC those issues where adressed (at least on most encounters) and BM got buffed to the dominating raid spec. But unless you are in the real endgame the difference between those specs is not that huge.
True MM cannot compete with BM spec in raids and SV spec will be better for a single hunter per raid group than any other spec.
However the spec is not that bad (the difference in DPS is what? about 10% DPS?).
MM is great for PvP (higher burst damage; scatter shot; Silencing shot and still some talent points left to get your HP up in BM and SV).
As long as a spec is not dead for all purposes I don't see why it should get a buff.
There will always be a powerhouse for raids. Every other class has its "best" specs (except hybrid classes who have a tree for every role, although not every talent tree might make them competitive for that role).
If Blizz would buff TSA it will either still be worse as BM and all hardcore-raiders will still be BMS or it will be better than BM again and every hardcore-raider will spec back to MM :-) However it will be difficult as hell to balance those specs to a point where several talent trees are equally good for raids (and as all specs will scale at a different pace you'll never find a balance for all talent trees regardless of the hunter's gear).
Additionally for everyone who is not heavy into raiding or PvP spec is not that important. You'll always have some die-hard fans of a certain spec (Pre BC Sayis anyone?; Post BC Caldone and many other die-hard MMs) and you still can come to a raid with a non-perfect spec as long as your raid group is ok with that (we still have a MM hunter in our raid pool, he just dislikes BM and thus will stay MM at which he does decent damage).
Another problem with a scaling TSA would be that it is a 31 point talent. After getting TSA you still have 30 talent points left (with the next expansion and 10 more talent points it might raise additional balancing problems).
TSA is a very nice buff for one single talent point. Why make it even better? The rest of MM tree does scale with gear, but is outperformed by the 20% attack speed boost of BM combined with ranged weapons having a rather restricted speed range (a fast high-DPS weapon with a weapon speed around 2.3 would perhaps make MM a much stronger spec for raids).
Sorry for the wall of text, basically my question would be: "Do we really need to buff the MM tree?"
I'm SHOCKED to see North actually proposing a good change to MM. Something is not right with the world... ^_^
Look, TSA is a group buff. An improved TSA would make a MM a better 5-man spec and probably better raid spec, but you could move it just short or on par with BM in this respect. North is right here.
I may never raid. I might not have the skills for it no matter what spec I am. It seems to require an elitist mentality that screams "I am a Hunter GOD!" and I just don't have that. At least from the hardcore raiders I've chatted with that seems to be the case, but it doesn't apply to everyone here on Alla. Plus, you get the honor of doing the same thing a thousand times only to have someone else say "Naw, not your turn yet to get the good stuff.". I might try it a time or two for fun, but certainly not live by it daily.
So, for the end-game person that doesn't have raid as their primary role, perhaps heroics, where should MM fall?
My belief is that it is possible to have all the specs be balanced against one another for the players playstyle. Let BM have raid. Let MM be best at PvP & maybe 5 man/heroic. Let SV be 2nd in everything, the true utility hunter, can do it all and not be embarassed. This is a wide variety of playstyles and spec would only help.
How would you know if they were balanced? If an MM in a Kara raid did good dps and still kept the raid alive. They may get out dps'd by a BM and an SV, but so what. As long as they didn't let anyone down, cool deal. Balance would also be a BM hunter in heroics and doing the same, able to do the Hunter job, maybe not as peak as an MM or SV but a good player would still be welcome back.
Talents should only be taloring. The skill of the player should decide the actual worth of the Hunter in ANY role, in ANY group. If you can do it, come on in.
TSA should scale with power, the rank should be a percentage increase on the scale, what those numbers should be- I've no idea. A level 70 MM using TSA should never be laughed at and being seen as 'not contributing' to a group. Maybe not topping dps, but perhaps 1 MM surrounded by a couple of BM & SV'ers could help THEM really dish out the juice on target.
Look, TSA is a group buff. An improved TSA would make a MM a better 5-man spec and probably better raid spec, but you could move it just short or on par with BM in this respect. North is right here.
I may never raid. I might not have the skills for it no matter what spec I am. It seems to require an elitist mentality that screams "I am a Hunter GOD!" and I just don't have that. At least from the hardcore raiders I've chatted with that seems to be the case, but it doesn't apply to everyone here on Alla. Plus, you get the honor of doing the same thing a thousand times only to have someone else say "Naw, not your turn yet to get the good stuff.". I might try it a time or two for fun, but certainly not live by it daily.
So, for the end-game person that doesn't have raid as their primary role, perhaps heroics, where should MM fall?
My belief is that it is possible to have all the specs be balanced against one another for the players playstyle. Let BM have raid. Let MM be best at PvP & maybe 5 man/heroic. Let SV be 2nd in everything, the true utility hunter, can do it all and not be embarassed. This is a wide variety of playstyles and spec would only help.
How would you know if they were balanced? If an MM in a Kara raid did good dps and still kept the raid alive. They may get out dps'd by a BM and an SV, but so what. As long as they didn't let anyone down, cool deal. Balance would also be a BM hunter in heroics and doing the same, able to do the Hunter job, maybe not as peak as an MM or SV but a good player would still be welcome back.
Talents should only be taloring. The skill of the player should decide the actual worth of the Hunter in ANY role, in ANY group. If you can do it, come on in.
TSA should scale with power, the rank should be a percentage increase on the scale, what those numbers should be- I've no idea. A level 70 MM using TSA should never be laughed at and being seen as 'not contributing' to a group. Maybe not topping dps, but perhaps 1 MM surrounded by a couple of BM & SV'ers could help THEM really dish out the juice on target.
#4REDACTED,
Posted: Nov 14 2007 at 8:51 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) I'm sorry, but you're retarded for even mentioning this.
/popcorn
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Xsarus wrote:
/popcorn
Move over and share, I've got some soda.
I think instead of scaling with base AP, it should scale with another stat, maybe intellect. So maybe something like "AP increase equal to 50% the hunter's intellect." Hunters are more likely to have more agility than intellect, so EW would still be pretty powerful, but in general this would provide a nice boost. May also make combat experience more acceptable, and would bring intellect almost to the point of an extra point of agility. Granted 50% may be too much if people itemize for more intellect, but as of right now I'm just looking through the top raid guild on my realm and the hunters may have 600 stamina and 800 agility, but only one has more than 270 intellect...and he isn't even above 400.
Quote:
There is a reason some classes excel at their jobs, such as rogues being the best single target DD.
And that's why warlocks are the best damage dealers on boss fights?
No, if every class was going to be the best at a job, we wouldn't need 4 different classes that do DPS and CC. Warlocks or hunters would be gone, paladins and/or druids would be gone in favor of priests and warriors, rogues would still be there, shamans would be gone because they shouldn't cast as well as a mage or DPS as well as a rogue...and you'd end up with wow having only warrior, priest, mage, rogue...sounds too much like Knight Online or Diablo II pre-expansion to me. Blizzard has come much farther than the days of D2, and KO is worth every penny of that $0 I played to get it.
However, as it is druids are very viable at doing everything. Ret Paladins just got a huge buff for PvE, as they get 30% threat reduction unless RF is active. Warriors are just as good at melee DPS as rogues, and enhancement shaman can stay out of my raid because I'm prejudiced against shaman (but if I'm not there, they could probably do comparible DPS). Hunters, mages, warlocks, shaman, druids, and priests are all capable of significant damage dealing. Some can pump out more than others, but usually that's because AT THE SAME TIME they're doing something else (i.e. dropping totems or healing the group and giving back mana).
The problem I see with comparing these three talents is this. Yes they are group buffs, our only group buff, but there are differences in the aspects of the ability.
Both FI and EW are procs, one is triggered by the hunter's crit, one is triggered by the pet's crit. TSA is always on, there is no proc, once you activate it you are good to go.
Both FI and EW require 3 talent points to fully utalize the benefits of the ability. TSA is only 1 point, giving you 2 points to spend in other talents that isn't a luxury BM or SV has.
Now I'm not dilusional in saying that the procs for the abilities is rare, because it isn't, it is quit common, but at the same time it isn't up 100% of the time either.
But ask yourself this, if TSA was the MMs equivalent to FI and EW, and they decided to give it a percentage based boost in AP but would cost 3 talent points to max out(like FI and EW), what talents would you be willing to give up for it.
Both FI and EW are procs, one is triggered by the hunter's crit, one is triggered by the pet's crit. TSA is always on, there is no proc, once you activate it you are good to go.
Both FI and EW require 3 talent points to fully utalize the benefits of the ability. TSA is only 1 point, giving you 2 points to spend in other talents that isn't a luxury BM or SV has.
Now I'm not dilusional in saying that the procs for the abilities is rare, because it isn't, it is quit common, but at the same time it isn't up 100% of the time either.
But ask yourself this, if TSA was the MMs equivalent to FI and EW, and they decided to give it a percentage based boost in AP but would cost 3 talent points to max out(like FI and EW), what talents would you be willing to give up for it.
baveux wrote:
I'm sorry, but you're retarded for even mentioning this.
And this contributes to your point...how?
baveux wrote:
If this was the truth, why not just have everyone roll a druid, or a pally? Hell, they could be tank, DD, or healer. No more need for those pesky other classes!
There is a reason some classes excel at their jobs, such as rogues being the best single target DD. If they didn't have it, they'd be useless and everyone would roll the class that had the most versatility instead of classes who excel at one particular aspect.
There is a reason some classes excel at their jobs, such as rogues being the best single target DD. If they didn't have it, they'd be useless and everyone would roll the class that had the most versatility instead of classes who excel at one particular aspect.
I think you're missing North's point. He's not saying there shouldn't be diversity or optimization of classes or specs. He seems to be talking about that ANY class or spec should be viable in a RAID. I agree with this. If someone says "You're a (insert spec)(insert class)" you aren't capable of RAIDing, then something is WRONG with the balance. If you have 25 people taking on a RAID, then there should easily be enough room for every class and every spec to participate. If not, perhaps the RAID's are built wrong or too difficult, or better yet, the class/spec needs to have a defined role in a RAID.
To *assume* that he means all specs and classes should be equal is, at best, nonsense. I'd look a little deeper at what he's saying.
baveux wrote:
Sorry, but you phail.
And so we end with another phrase that doesn't add anything to the thread.
I'm positive you can do better baveux. Bringing it up a notch would really be good right now...
Quote:
The problem I see with comparing these three talents is this. Yes they are group buffs, our only group buff, but there are differences in the aspects of the ability.
Both FI and EW are procs, one is triggered by the hunter's crit, one is triggered by the pet's crit. TSA is always on, there is no proc, once you activate it you are good to go.
Both FI and EW require 3 talent points to fully utalize the benefits of the ability. TSA is only 1 point, giving you 2 points to spend in other talents that isn't a luxury BM or SV has.
Now I'm not dilusional in saying that the procs for the abilities is rare, because it isn't, it is quit common, but at the same time it isn't up 100% of the time either.
But ask yourself this, if TSA was the MMs equivalent to FI and EW, and they decided to give it a percentage based boost in AP but would cost 3 talent points to max out(like FI and EW), what talents would you be willing to give up for it.
Both FI and EW are procs, one is triggered by the hunter's crit, one is triggered by the pet's crit. TSA is always on, there is no proc, once you activate it you are good to go.
Both FI and EW require 3 talent points to fully utalize the benefits of the ability. TSA is only 1 point, giving you 2 points to spend in other talents that isn't a luxury BM or SV has.
Now I'm not dilusional in saying that the procs for the abilities is rare, because it isn't, it is quit common, but at the same time it isn't up 100% of the time either.
But ask yourself this, if TSA was the MMs equivalent to FI and EW, and they decided to give it a percentage based boost in AP but would cost 3 talent points to max out(like FI and EW), what talents would you be willing to give up for it.
Yes, but TSA is a 31-point talent. These talents usually provide a bigger bonus to whatever it is you're doing than others do. Consider:
Mortal Strike: Does something no other ability (until now with aimed shot) does, making it that much easier to fight groups with healers.
Ruin: Granted it's a 21-point but same thing. Most casters need 5 points to get +50% crit damage bonus (difference in semantics, but it comes to 50% of the base damage). But destro warlocks get that in 1 talent point.
Shadowform: Priests get a 15% damage increase AND a 15% damage taken decrease. They just need to pop out of form to heal. For 1 talent point? That usually would take around 15 GOOD talents to meet that.
So I don't think that 1 talent point spent on TSA would be a bad thing. Even then, with "what 2 would you give up?" you simply lose 2 in either SV or BM. Low-tier they don't give much DD anyway, and since most people dont spec marks anymore they wouldnt miss much.
Third, EW and FI ARE up most of the time, if not all of the time. FI is 10 seconds and based on your pet's crit chance. Assuming your pet is doing 5 attacks every 3 seconds (3 autoattacks plus 2 special attacks), you have in 9 seconds 15 attacks. At a 15% crit chance he should crit about twice in there, and there's a really low chance FI isn't gonna proc. Then look at EW, if you have a 30% crit chance (not that unusual for raid-buffed SV hunter, probably even more if you have a feral druid in your group), and you assume in 7 seconds you can cast 2-3 steady, 2-3 auto, and 1 either arcane or multishot (over a period of time) that's probably 6 shots in 7 seconds. At 30% crit...probably looking at 2 crits in that time. Really low chance of none. So once you get going (and on a boss fight that means the first 0.2% of the fight) they should be up almost constantly.
EDIT:
They are not our only group buff:
1. If your pet has a debuff which lowers the mobs attack power, that can be considered a buff since you're considering EW a buff (and its a debuff).
2. Scorpid sting, for the same reason, can be considered a buff. I use it all the time, and probably wont use serpent even with the buff (except on rogues in PvP...if I PvP).
3. Aspects of the Pack and Wild are both auras which provide a speed/resistance increase to those in the area. Pack may not get used much except if you're running with a hunter pre-40, but I've used wild on numerous occasions.
Edited, Nov 14th 2007 10:09am by skribs
Currently TSA does +125AP at Rank 4. That's almost 9dps in a fairly large radius. For 1 point, that's pretty good. There are many ways to improve the talent and not be OP.
So, what if instead of a 'hard' radius, it worked more like an explosion, the closer you are to the hunter the more powerful it gets. This would make the hunter very good solo and less effective with larger and larger groups. I could see a group of hunters all clustering around an MM hunter though for this. That would be death for hunters on boss's like the Doomwalker, but it would be kind of amusing to see. So, in some situations, folks would be clamoring for the MM hunter to group up, in others, they'd be less useful as everyone might be forced to spread out. Skill would become more important in this option as well since deciding where to stand, when to move, etc has big reprocussions. Problematically, it might return the MM hunter to the pinnacle of dps if standing by themselves, or close thereto, depending on if another hunter was near the MM hunter. Interesting implications...
To stick with the hard radius, you'd probably need to get scaling to give someone with a 2k unbuffed AP around +150ishAP for slightly over 10dps. Buffed would shoot this up much higher.
Of course, you could also base TSA strictly on level and have the ranks effect the formula, something like:
Level(Rank*.75)=AP bonus
Thus a Rank 4 70 would have an AP bonus of 210 or 15 dps. A Rank 1 41 would have a bonus of 30.75 or about 2 dps.
This would remove the AP scale so you could still keep alternative gear/builds viable as an MM hunter and still let each level mean some kind of increase to the group. Otherwise MM's would only go max AP to keep TSA high, which would turn them into little more than force multipliers...
A level based scale like above would be viable if you forced TSA up the tree a bit more, put it on par with silencing shot or something. This would keep there from being any hybrid builds capable of the buff, but then you'd lose the buff in the mid levels.... hmmm tradeoffs...
Just musing about here and throwing out rough numbers and ideas nothing heavy and certainly not well thought out! LOL!
So, what if instead of a 'hard' radius, it worked more like an explosion, the closer you are to the hunter the more powerful it gets. This would make the hunter very good solo and less effective with larger and larger groups. I could see a group of hunters all clustering around an MM hunter though for this. That would be death for hunters on boss's like the Doomwalker, but it would be kind of amusing to see. So, in some situations, folks would be clamoring for the MM hunter to group up, in others, they'd be less useful as everyone might be forced to spread out. Skill would become more important in this option as well since deciding where to stand, when to move, etc has big reprocussions. Problematically, it might return the MM hunter to the pinnacle of dps if standing by themselves, or close thereto, depending on if another hunter was near the MM hunter. Interesting implications...
To stick with the hard radius, you'd probably need to get scaling to give someone with a 2k unbuffed AP around +150ishAP for slightly over 10dps. Buffed would shoot this up much higher.
Of course, you could also base TSA strictly on level and have the ranks effect the formula, something like:
Level(Rank*.75)=AP bonus
Thus a Rank 4 70 would have an AP bonus of 210 or 15 dps. A Rank 1 41 would have a bonus of 30.75 or about 2 dps.
This would remove the AP scale so you could still keep alternative gear/builds viable as an MM hunter and still let each level mean some kind of increase to the group. Otherwise MM's would only go max AP to keep TSA high, which would turn them into little more than force multipliers...
A level based scale like above would be viable if you forced TSA up the tree a bit more, put it on par with silencing shot or something. This would keep there from being any hybrid builds capable of the buff, but then you'd lose the buff in the mid levels.... hmmm tradeoffs...
Just musing about here and throwing out rough numbers and ideas nothing heavy and certainly not well thought out! LOL!
Well, what you want is for it to scale with level, but not end-game. Now, 210 AP at 70 is a LOT more than 125, and it still doesn't scale. It's just a buff. So a SV hunter would need 840 agility to match the AP, instead of 500. That's a HUGE difference, especially if you're looking at kara (once you get to Nihilum's level yeah SV would still be better).
What I think the general consensus here is is that if your gear is low, i.e. 5-mans and maybe T4 content, you're probably going to see TSA as being on par or slightly better than other buffs. But once you hit T5/T6, the other buffs are huge compared to TSA. So TSA needs to work about how it does not in 5-mans and kara, but be buffed up a bit for the higher difficulty end-game content. If you look at Apoq (or whatever his name is) from Nihilum you got 940+ agility contributing to 235+ AP for the raid (and I can garuntee he'll keep up EW what with a 40%+ crit chance AND MT), vs. the current 125 now. That's well over 100 difference.
What I think the general consensus here is is that if your gear is low, i.e. 5-mans and maybe T4 content, you're probably going to see TSA as being on par or slightly better than other buffs. But once you hit T5/T6, the other buffs are huge compared to TSA. So TSA needs to work about how it does not in 5-mans and kara, but be buffed up a bit for the higher difficulty end-game content. If you look at Apoq (or whatever his name is) from Nihilum you got 940+ agility contributing to 235+ AP for the raid (and I can garuntee he'll keep up EW what with a 40%+ crit chance AND MT), vs. the current 125 now. That's well over 100 difference.
keep in mind that TSA is only for your group, while EW is for the whole raid. Way better.
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I just shudder to think of what's going to happen to MM hunter once WoTLK comes. It'll be more than easy to get 500-600 agility with normal leveling gear- making TSA completely pointless.
I'm one of those hard-core MMs who is still hesitating to go back to BM. I tried SV for a week or so, and respecc'ed. Luckily, MM is still a viable spec for 5-man runs and even for Kara. Also, luckily for MM hunters, there are still people who don't realize that BM is now the highest DPS spec.
I'm one of those hard-core MMs who is still hesitating to go back to BM. I tried SV for a week or so, and respecc'ed. Luckily, MM is still a viable spec for 5-man runs and even for Kara. Also, luckily for MM hunters, there are still people who don't realize that BM is now the highest DPS spec.
Midnight, remember that TSA can have new ranks, so end-game it may very well be 200 AP, meaning 800 agility will be threshold when EW > TSA.
skribs wrote:
Yes, but TSA is a 31-point talent. These talents usually provide a bigger bonus to whatever it is you're doing than others do. Consider:
Mortal Strike: Does something no other ability (until now with aimed shot) does, making it that much easier to fight groups with healers.
Ruin: Granted it's a 21-point but same thing. Most casters need 5 points to get +50% crit damage bonus (difference in semantics, but it comes to 50% of the base damage). But destro warlocks get that in 1 talent point.
Shadowform: Priests get a 15% damage increase AND a 15% damage taken decrease. They just need to pop out of form to heal. For 1 talent point? That usually would take around 15 GOOD talents to meet that.
So I don't think that 1 talent point spent on TSA would be a bad thing. Even then, with "what 2 would you give up?" you simply lose 2 in either SV or BM. Low-tier they don't give much DD anyway, and since most people dont spec marks anymore they wouldnt miss much.
Third, EW and FI ARE up most of the time, if not all of the time. FI is 10 seconds and based on your pet's crit chance. Assuming your pet is doing 5 attacks every 3 seconds (3 autoattacks plus 2 special attacks), you have in 9 seconds 15 attacks. At a 15% crit chance he should crit about twice in there, and there's a really low chance FI isn't gonna proc. Then look at EW, if you have a 30% crit chance (not that unusual for raid-buffed SV hunter, probably even more if you have a feral druid in your group), and you assume in 7 seconds you can cast 2-3 steady, 2-3 auto, and 1 either arcane or multishot (over a period of time) that's probably 6 shots in 7 seconds. At 30% crit...probably looking at 2 crits in that time. Really low chance of none. So once you get going (and on a boss fight that means the first 0.2% of the fight) they should be up almost constantly.
Mortal Strike: Does something no other ability (until now with aimed shot) does, making it that much easier to fight groups with healers.
Ruin: Granted it's a 21-point but same thing. Most casters need 5 points to get +50% crit damage bonus (difference in semantics, but it comes to 50% of the base damage). But destro warlocks get that in 1 talent point.
Shadowform: Priests get a 15% damage increase AND a 15% damage taken decrease. They just need to pop out of form to heal. For 1 talent point? That usually would take around 15 GOOD talents to meet that.
So I don't think that 1 talent point spent on TSA would be a bad thing. Even then, with "what 2 would you give up?" you simply lose 2 in either SV or BM. Low-tier they don't give much DD anyway, and since most people dont spec marks anymore they wouldnt miss much.
Third, EW and FI ARE up most of the time, if not all of the time. FI is 10 seconds and based on your pet's crit chance. Assuming your pet is doing 5 attacks every 3 seconds (3 autoattacks plus 2 special attacks), you have in 9 seconds 15 attacks. At a 15% crit chance he should crit about twice in there, and there's a really low chance FI isn't gonna proc. Then look at EW, if you have a 30% crit chance (not that unusual for raid-buffed SV hunter, probably even more if you have a feral druid in your group), and you assume in 7 seconds you can cast 2-3 steady, 2-3 auto, and 1 either arcane or multishot (over a period of time) that's probably 6 shots in 7 seconds. At 30% crit...probably looking at 2 crits in that time. Really low chance of none. So once you get going (and on a boss fight that means the first 0.2% of the fight) they should be up almost constantly.
Yeah I consider EW a group buff, even though it is a debuff for the mob, because it buffs the group damage output, same way as Blood Frenzy for warriors.(And I did not think of those other group buffs only used aspect of the Wild once ever, pack just slipped my mind)
Also FI and EW are both 31 point talents as well, and your comparing mages to warlocks, two different classes, apples and oranges. EW, FI, and TSA are all Hunter talents, that's apples to apples.
No, by "31-point talent" I mean a 1 point talent that you need 30 points to get. The equivilant BM and SV talents are wyvern sting and bestial wrath.
And while comparing different classes isn't exact...look at the paladin and warrior shield spec talents...both get 30% increase in damage absorbed for 3 talent points. Most classes will get approx 1% damage increase on most talents, or 2% for hybrids (i.e. paladins and shamans get 2% on their 2H or weapon spec, warriors, rogues, and hunters get 1% crit, etc). In general, talents follow a similar pattern:
For non-hybrids, they will slowly buff certain aspects (some may be better than others) but in general the 11, 21, 31, and 41 single-point talent will greatly enhance certain aspects of the class. Some of these talents are considered weak, and if they are classes usually QQ about it (and rightfully so...I mean look at the arcane mage 11-point talent).
For hybrids, the buffs will usually be bigger, as the general form is more lacking (i.e. an untalented shaman will put out less DPS than an untalented rogue or mage).
In most cases, these talents, particularly the 31 and 41 point talents, are what people go into the tree to get. Paladins go into prot for holy shield, warriors go into arms mainly to get MS, druids go into resto for tree form or balance for moonkin. They pretty much define the tree. There's a reason balance druids are called Boomkins and arms warriors all called MS Warriors. Because those talents DEFINE the tree.
Granted, for hunters it's a bit different. Yes, Serpent's Swiftness is a HUGE DPS boost, and it's not a 1/1 point talent. And yes, most hunters go into SV for EW instead of for wyvern sting or readiness (which is considered a weaker 41-point talent). But, most hunters DO go into marks to get either silencing shot or TSA, because those are the only tools marks really has to offer to a group/raid. So you comparing talent points spent on FI to TSA is as big of an apple/orange situation as me comparing warlocks to mages...except that both caster classes follow similar patterns for how the talents develop the class.
And while comparing different classes isn't exact...look at the paladin and warrior shield spec talents...both get 30% increase in damage absorbed for 3 talent points. Most classes will get approx 1% damage increase on most talents, or 2% for hybrids (i.e. paladins and shamans get 2% on their 2H or weapon spec, warriors, rogues, and hunters get 1% crit, etc). In general, talents follow a similar pattern:
For non-hybrids, they will slowly buff certain aspects (some may be better than others) but in general the 11, 21, 31, and 41 single-point talent will greatly enhance certain aspects of the class. Some of these talents are considered weak, and if they are classes usually QQ about it (and rightfully so...I mean look at the arcane mage 11-point talent).
For hybrids, the buffs will usually be bigger, as the general form is more lacking (i.e. an untalented shaman will put out less DPS than an untalented rogue or mage).
In most cases, these talents, particularly the 31 and 41 point talents, are what people go into the tree to get. Paladins go into prot for holy shield, warriors go into arms mainly to get MS, druids go into resto for tree form or balance for moonkin. They pretty much define the tree. There's a reason balance druids are called Boomkins and arms warriors all called MS Warriors. Because those talents DEFINE the tree.
Granted, for hunters it's a bit different. Yes, Serpent's Swiftness is a HUGE DPS boost, and it's not a 1/1 point talent. And yes, most hunters go into SV for EW instead of for wyvern sting or readiness (which is considered a weaker 41-point talent). But, most hunters DO go into marks to get either silencing shot or TSA, because those are the only tools marks really has to offer to a group/raid. So you comparing talent points spent on FI to TSA is as big of an apple/orange situation as me comparing warlocks to mages...except that both caster classes follow similar patterns for how the talents develop the class.
Eh...
The numbers were only for sake of discussion and not even what 'should' be, you can adjust them as whatever we can come closest to on consensus. The math can be pretty basic though. If you adjust down to .65 it lowers the numbers a lot. The percentage is where you can control that 'high end' number. Just trying to keep it simple.
I don't think 'apples to apples' is possible across spec's. Theorycraft tries to reduce everything to dps or MP5, or whatever. To do that, you have to make assumptions. Those assumptions are where the divergence from reality comes in.
For instance: North and Kompera are going at it over Kompera's build and to be honest, it's possible North is wrong (I'm not saying he is BTW). If Komp slips into a respec that North builds and does less dps even though he's trying just as hard, in reality, that spec doesn't work for Kompera. Theorycraft can call it the best spec in existance, but if the player can't play it, then the numbers are meaningless.
So by the time you add the human element, the random element, and the variances of different situations, "apples to apples" becomes a quaint concept.
If you redesign TSA (or any skill/talent/spell/ability) for the maximum build Hunter in full T6, full RAID buffs, full gems and maximum dps, then you are designing for less than .000001% of the Hunters in WoW.
The idea is not to turn Hunter Gods into mortals, or huntards into Gods. You want to achieve a balance that will let MM spec actually play in a Raid, give a desireable buff to the other ranged combatants and make folks WANT any spec Hunter in the raid.
So, what numbers those are, I don't know. Obviously, skribs feels +210AP is too much. Well, +125AP is probably too little. So... where between those two numbers would be good for end game raid?
I think that's kinda where we can start and then argue about formulas either off of AP scale or Level scale... or perhaps some other idea will come up that we can rattle around.
The numbers were only for sake of discussion and not even what 'should' be, you can adjust them as whatever we can come closest to on consensus. The math can be pretty basic though. If you adjust down to .65 it lowers the numbers a lot. The percentage is where you can control that 'high end' number. Just trying to keep it simple.
I don't think 'apples to apples' is possible across spec's. Theorycraft tries to reduce everything to dps or MP5, or whatever. To do that, you have to make assumptions. Those assumptions are where the divergence from reality comes in.
For instance: North and Kompera are going at it over Kompera's build and to be honest, it's possible North is wrong (I'm not saying he is BTW). If Komp slips into a respec that North builds and does less dps even though he's trying just as hard, in reality, that spec doesn't work for Kompera. Theorycraft can call it the best spec in existance, but if the player can't play it, then the numbers are meaningless.
So by the time you add the human element, the random element, and the variances of different situations, "apples to apples" becomes a quaint concept.
If you redesign TSA (or any skill/talent/spell/ability) for the maximum build Hunter in full T6, full RAID buffs, full gems and maximum dps, then you are designing for less than .000001% of the Hunters in WoW.
The idea is not to turn Hunter Gods into mortals, or huntards into Gods. You want to achieve a balance that will let MM spec actually play in a Raid, give a desireable buff to the other ranged combatants and make folks WANT any spec Hunter in the raid.
So, what numbers those are, I don't know. Obviously, skribs feels +210AP is too much. Well, +125AP is probably too little. So... where between those two numbers would be good for end game raid?
I think that's kinda where we can start and then argue about formulas either off of AP scale or Level scale... or perhaps some other idea will come up that we can rattle around.
skribs wrote:
So you comparing talent points spent on FI to TSA is as big of an apple/orange situation as me comparing warlocks to mages...except that both caster classes follow similar patterns for how the talents develop the class.
Yeah I missread what you meant by 31 point talent. But that aside, to comment on what I quoted.
I wasn't the one that was comparing FI, EW, and TSA, if you check my 1st post I was actually pointing out how different TSA was from the others, and to say that it should be buffed because it doesn't come compare to the other two is wrong since they really aren't similar in the first place.
I used the cost of talent points as a median to say if they are going to be compared then they should be similar in all aspects, and one of those aspects is cost of talent points.
Now had the OP actually compared the 3 31-point talents he could have done that, and had a better comparison.
I would take TSA over Bestial Wrath any day. My pet being incapable of being CCed is rather meh in PvE. The damage boost is nice, but only lasts 18 seconds, I would rather have a boost of AP for an entire raid than an 18 second window where your pet does +50% increase in damage.
Now I can't really comment on Wyvern Sting because I have never used nor seen it utalized in any situation much less a raid so I won't compare the two.
But comparing the 31-point talents I see TSA > BW, and don't really know where WS falls into the mix.
SynnTastic:
I understand what you are looking at in the comparison, but if BM and SV are already considered to be better than MM, then you must look at TSA in the light of that situation. As was said previously, only Silencing Shot and TSA define the high tree aspect of MM. BM & SV can steal the low hanging fruit from MM and become much better. That leaves MM looking for a high tree reward to balance it against BM or SV for a choice of primary spec.
I don't think we should compare the relative group buffs yet, they aren't really equivalent in the trees or otherwise. You end up assuming and guessing at value. That process can be looked at after you have some kind of consensus on a numeric value of end game +AP. After that, then you can ask the question, "Is it okay to leave TSA as a 31 point talent?". That would end up addressing your comparison values a little better.
--- from here ---
Currently 14AP = 1dps. Easy numbers would be +140AP Rank 4 = +10dps. That's a small buff, but is 1 dps from what it is currently enough to make you Raid leaders and organizers say "Okay, the Marksman spec is fixed now and can join." ?
In the end, how much of a plus in dps must TSA add in order to make an MM spec hunter in your raid more paletable?
I'm not sure, but I think that's what North is striking at... I'm sure he'll correct me if I'm wrong.
I understand what you are looking at in the comparison, but if BM and SV are already considered to be better than MM, then you must look at TSA in the light of that situation. As was said previously, only Silencing Shot and TSA define the high tree aspect of MM. BM & SV can steal the low hanging fruit from MM and become much better. That leaves MM looking for a high tree reward to balance it against BM or SV for a choice of primary spec.
I don't think we should compare the relative group buffs yet, they aren't really equivalent in the trees or otherwise. You end up assuming and guessing at value. That process can be looked at after you have some kind of consensus on a numeric value of end game +AP. After that, then you can ask the question, "Is it okay to leave TSA as a 31 point talent?". That would end up addressing your comparison values a little better.
--- from here ---
Currently 14AP = 1dps. Easy numbers would be +140AP Rank 4 = +10dps. That's a small buff, but is 1 dps from what it is currently enough to make you Raid leaders and organizers say "Okay, the Marksman spec is fixed now and can join." ?
In the end, how much of a plus in dps must TSA add in order to make an MM spec hunter in your raid more paletable?
I'm not sure, but I think that's what North is striking at... I'm sure he'll correct me if I'm wrong.
Naw, you pretty much got it right. I am mostly just staying out of this thread to let the mathemagicians do their job. I know when my own skills are outmatched, so except for the op I doubt I will contribute much to this thread. I will of course take all the glory if this turns out to be a viable suggestion.
Well dammit... you're leaving me to keep the ball rolling and on course, these guys are munching popcorn and guzzling soda for heaven's sakes. C'mon man! Steer your own thread, or *I* get the credit... ^_^
Hey, aren't you Raid leader or something? You should know what number you are looking for, at least closer than me... still a friggen Raid virgin. I've watch raid vids but that's just like watching **** for a virgin... HAHA. Toss out a number bud, can't be any worse than my pathetic stabs at it.
Hey, aren't you Raid leader or something? You should know what number you are looking for, at least closer than me... still a friggen Raid virgin. I've watch raid vids but that's just like watching **** for a virgin... HAHA. Toss out a number bud, can't be any worse than my pathetic stabs at it.
Oh, I was just hoping that baveux would get butthurt when someone responded to his asinine question.
I've been useing math in the "top hunters" thread, which has met with only limited success so I'm not in the mood. Maybe some other time.
I've been useing math in the "top hunters" thread, which has met with only limited success so I'm not in the mood. Maybe some other time.
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Xsarus wrote:
Oh, I was just hoping that baveux would get butthurt when someone responded to his asinine question.
We got a good start on this so far, but I honestly know jack shit about MM in raids except that they just won't cut it. Hop to it minions!
Well, damn, no one has even tried. here's some guiding ideas.
EW is the whole raid -> it doesn't have to be as big a number to be equal to have as big an effect.
FI is 3% and so gets better as everyone gets better. Take the typical dps of a hunter at X AP*3% and make TSA similar to that, but a bit lower as it's not a proc effect.
really fast rough.
my dps in raids is around 600-700. my AP at this point is around 1500. so that's 21dps. this is 294 AP. so if TSA were about 250 that would be around 15% of the current AP. Of course MM has higher AP for the same dps, so I'm not sure hohw that would affect this. good luck.
EW is the whole raid -> it doesn't have to be as big a number to be equal to have as big an effect.
FI is 3% and so gets better as everyone gets better. Take the typical dps of a hunter at X AP*3% and make TSA similar to that, but a bit lower as it's not a proc effect.
really fast rough.
my dps in raids is around 600-700. my AP at this point is around 1500. so that's 21dps. this is 294 AP. so if TSA were about 250 that would be around 15% of the current AP. Of course MM has higher AP for the same dps, so I'm not sure hohw that would affect this. good luck.
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