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yes another prot. build question, sorryFollow

#1 Nov 14 2007 at 1:39 AM Rating: Decent
So instead of linking you my build, I'll just admit that I'm using the cookie cutter prot build (end game raiding 0/49/12) that Jack posted in the FAQ sticky with the only switch being instead of putting the 5 points into reckoning, I went with the new combat experience for the extra 10% stamina. Now I chose that not only because the extra stamina is always nice, from what I've read on some of the threads here, at 70 reckoning really doesn't proc that often and some people feel it's kind of a wasted 5 points.

Now my other question is, I want to start tanking heroics; especially now that they've lowered the rep requirement. I've been working on my gear and have some decent tanking gear that should be okay for heroics. My problem is that I want a build that I can still solo in since I've got half of SMV, all of Blade's edge and Netherstorm to quest in since I was lucky and when I was lvling my pally most of my xp was rest xp and running a lot of instances. So can the 0/49/12 build survive solo with the 5 points out of reckoning and into combat experience?

Then one final question, why leave out points in precision? Is is simply due to the fact that pally's don't gain that much aggro hitting people, it's more from people hitting us and us just laughing?
#2 Nov 14 2007 at 3:03 AM Rating: Decent
well i dunno bout you guys but i specced differently and im loving my new build!
inforce/gul'dan, anyways I went from 11k to like 12.5k health unbuffed before kings lol.. I cant wait to see what the raid buffs give me now!
#3 Nov 14 2007 at 4:28 AM Rating: Decent
link your build
#4 Nov 14 2007 at 7:19 AM Rating: Good
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2,183 posts
Let's see if I can answer your questions sufficiently :) I personally feel that lowering the rep requirements for Heroics was a BAD idea. At least for Revered it showed people put forth some effort to do Heroics. Now with Honored people can pretty much never step foot in an instance, just do all the quests, and bam they are "Heroic ready" ... I can't say whether you'd be ready to do Heroics or not because I don't know what your gear looks lie, but just because you "can" go at Honored now doesn't mean you should, unless your gear is sufficient.

As for soloing in a tank build, it's not a question of whether you can "survive" as you said solo, but whether you can do it efficiently. The answer is yes and no. Quests where you need to kill things that are spread out, or caster mobs, is a pain in the ***, but just carry around a "Ret" or "Shockadin" type set to swap into while soloing, and things will go smoother. Conversely, try to use the "AOE grinding" tactics as much as possible while soloing, also speeding up the process.

Why leave out Precision? Pretty much as you said, most of our threat comes from sitting back and laughing as mobs eat our reflective damage, though a good amount also comes from our Seal/Judgement of choice. Precision can help out, but I personally have not found it needed, at least not as much as any other talent. If I had spare points, I might take Precision, but with the amount of points we currently have, I won't.

Oh, and I am one who agrees about leaving out Reckoning once you start raiding at 70. Before then it's still ok. Your avoidance is low enough it still procs a goodly amount, but as your gear gets better, Reckoning procs less and less reducing its usefulness.

Hope that helped, and didn't get off topic :)

EDIT: typo.

Edited, Nov 14th 2007 7:21am by Maulgak
#5 Nov 14 2007 at 3:40 PM Rating: Decent
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Maul, mind trying to get it out of my head that Reckoning is better than One-Hand spec?..or not just Maul, anybody.

As in another thread I posted in, which I didn't get the kind of answer I was lookin for, I believe the added 1k damage from a reckoning proc every 20 attempts to hit you, (Being uncrushable pre-kara, and in kara seems to leave about 50% block chance for your pally with holy shield up. That means that 10 outta every 20 attempts to hit you are blocked, and then 1 out of every of those 10 attempts proc reckoning.), assuming you are only tanking one mob and are uncrushable, which in heroics and on some trash, you easily tank more than one....Is more than you would get from little tid bits of damage one hand spec adds. (~25 to SoR judge, ~6 to SoR proc, ~6 to weapon hit, ~6 to consecretion, and ~14 to holy shield).

Assuming my greatly rounded math is correct, and I'm not forgetting anything, I just dont see how one hand spec, adds up to what reckoning does in heroics and kara.

Thanks for any responses, and corrections on where I am thinking wrong about something.
#6 Nov 14 2007 at 4:07 PM Rating: Good
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713 posts

I would keep reckoning for the moment if i was you. I am currently in the same position (deciding whether to swap it for the 10% stamina) with quests to do in Netherstorm, Blades Edge and SMV I have noticed it doesnt proc as much (my avoidance is around 88%).

I found that it still has some usefulness during questing when your getting smacked by over 4 mobs but instance-wise its probably not as important with the new stamina buff to expertise.

I think I will toss it out once i get the tanking trinket quest reward in Netherstorm and a couple of other little bits and pieces that will get me to 102 avoidance.

-------------------------------

Arthorius - 70 Porcupine Paladin - Khaz-Garoth
#7 Nov 14 2007 at 7:14 PM Rating: Decent
Maul, I do agree that lowering the rep requirement to honored will make PUG heroic groups really painful. For me, I know my gear is so so at best so I'll still run most of the lvl 70 non heroics for a little while longer to touch up some of my gear that I know needs to be a little stronger, especially for tanking.

As far as heroics goes, when I do run it, it will be just guild runs as we slowly and let me emphasize slowly work our way to gearing up for our first kara run.

Now for my ret set, I'll want to focus more on agility/stamina/critical strike?

#8 Nov 14 2007 at 8:34 PM Rating: Decent
Quote:
my avoidance is around 88%


But that includes your block right? Lets say that you have enough block value to get a full block. Out of 100 hits, you have a 12 chances to take damage. Of that 12, only 1.2 will proc reckoning. That means out of 100 swings only one attack will proc reckoning. Tell me thats not 5 wasted points?

At least for bosses you wont take full damage, but you can still go entire fights without seeing it once.


Quote:
As in another thread I posted in, which I didn't get the kind of answer I was lookin for, I believe the added 1k damage from a reckoning proc every 20 attempts to hit you, (Being uncrushable pre-kara, and in kara seems to leave about 50% block chance for your pally with holy shield up. That means that 10 outta every 20 attempts to hit you are blocked, and then 1 out of every of those 10 attempts proc reckoning.), assuming you are only tanking one mob and are uncrushable, which in heroics and on some trash, you easily tank more than one....Is more than you would get from little tid bits of damage one hand spec adds. (~25 to SoR judge, ~6 to SoR proc, ~6 to weapon hit, ~6 to consecretion, and ~14 to holy shield).

Assuming my greatly rounded math is correct, and I'm not forgetting anything, I just dont see how one hand spec, adds up to what reckoning does in heroics and kara.

Thanks for any responses, and corrections on where I am thinking wrong about something.


Ignoring all the math, think about this. Even if Reckoning were to proc and build more threat in a fight, its still against one target. Weapon expertise is against all targets. Thats big. Plus look at reckonings unpredictability, you may not even see it proc in a fight.

Lets look at the amount of threat generated by Reckoning. My parse records show my melee damage as around 35% of my total damage. That means the the other 65% of my damage is dealing nearly double threat (+90% from RF and another 5% from WE). Hmm... Reckoning will double that white damage for a few seconds, and only double my yellow damage from one source for a few seconds. Plus it may not be active very long.... if at all.






Edited, Nov 14th 2007 11:54pm by ramera
#9 Nov 14 2007 at 9:36 PM Rating: Default
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1,330 posts
Quote:
I personally feel that lowering the rep requirements for Heroics was a BAD idea.


Abso-fecking-lutely. My shammy is about 4 bars from 69 and is already keyed with all bar Sha'tar, I have not run that many instances on him yet. Getting revered is easy with just a tiny bit of effort, if you can't be asked making that effort you DO NOT deserve a heroic key.

I was also on my shammy just after the patch came out and there were a couple of guys in guild chat raving about the fact they are now keyed for a bunch of heroics, these are guys who have been 70 for several months, these are guys I would not set foot in a heroic with, they have not even run most of the instances on normal mode... On the whole I love 2.3 but heroics at honored was a terrible idea.
#10 Nov 15 2007 at 9:47 AM Rating: Decent
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2,183 posts
I don't know about all the math you guys gave, I'm too tired to read into it, lol. Thing is 1H spec increases all damage, and all the time: Consecration does more, you strike for more with your weapon (whoopity-freakin-do to that one), your Seals do more, Holy Shield does more. That's a good amount of threat increase right there. As stated above me, Reckoning is unpredictable, though yes it still can/will increase your threat by a good amount when it procs. With your avoidance I would say keep Reckoning. With my avoidance it's losing its luster, proccing less often, and I feel those 5 points are better spent somewhere else.
#11 Nov 15 2007 at 1:34 PM Rating: Decent
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94 posts
Thanks for both of the replies :D
I decided that until I get the new heroic badge pants, chest, and belt...and I am uncrushable, which is one item away. (on my 29th run for my figurine of the colossus i believe)..then I am keepin reckoning. Once I get those three heroic badge items, and that figurine..I'll have a nice increase in dodge, and I am going to respec to take one hand spec over reckoning. Thanks for the help :)

Edit: mistyped something

Edited, Nov 15th 2007 3:35pm by theblackcasper
#12 Nov 16 2007 at 2:47 PM Rating: Decent
If you look at the FAQ, I updated the tanking specs to match the 2.3 content. There is an instance tank spec in there and yes, it includes Reckoning.
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