2.3 Talent Calc is up (prot build)Follow

I would prefer this build: http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=sZV0tIx0zggqtVbx

http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=sZVGzIx0zgMqtVsx0h Is gonna be what I'm gonna go to tomorrow when patch hits.


16k UB HP *drool*

Oh, and ask me how much I care that I didn't take Toughness, or, to some degree, Spell Warding.

That last statement is correct toughness is a must, however i can see the benefit in reckoning for lower level (or lacking in gear/stats) paladins.

The reason behind ISotC, is not to generate more threat, but to allow the party to get the mob down faster because of the patch 2.3 (1%, 2%, 3%) higher crit chance. I agree however that is isnt of much use pre 2.3.

@sensen, that build is indeed what i was thinking about aswell. But i am not sure how this 4% spell damage reduction works out at max level. I already think a paladins weakspot is magic, but then again maybe taking damage this way will allow more heals and more mana returns...

I am also not sure how important the faster judgements are then again i think at a higher level (65+) it might be needed for the threat build...

So far that build (sensen posted) seems like it has most of the basics: http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=sZV0tIx0zggqtVbx

my reason to dump "spell warding" is, as you said tinytin, the more dmg I will get (not much) so I gain more mana which I often need cuz I dont get enough dmg..

Reckoning as it is, is more of an aoe tanking goody. the more sources of dmg, the more procs, the more dmg, the more threat. its one of those "thats why we brought a pally" things. for example: SL with pally tank, priest healer, rogue, and 2 mages...we did whole run with NO CC at all.

Reckoning does, however, SUCK for boss(and single target) fights. pallies pride themselves on front loading threat. Reckoning being a defensive proc has almost no bearing on aggro control and points are better spent in dmg mitigating talents.

We basically have to make a few distinctions between these builds.

Perhaps this works out and please correct me if i am wrong, cause i haven't reached endgame yet.

Preferable builds:

For leveling/aoe grinding/aoe tanking: http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=sZV0xIx0zggqt
With Redoubt and Reckoning, because we expect to have a lot of targets hitting us. So it should pay off. (The ret talents can be a preference, perhaps the new Pursuit is worth 2/3)

For Main Tanking with mediocre gear: http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=sZVMtIx0zMgqtVfx
With redoubt, because you are still lacking gear/stats, but without reckoning because we are expecting more boss/single target encounters. ISotC might be usefull to increase threat even more, together with the fast judgements.

For Main Tanking with uncrit/uncrush: http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=sZxRthg0zMgqtVfx
Here i am not really sure. No redoubt and no reckoning of course, because the value of them have dropped due to good gear. But where do you place the points then to reach higher talents tiers. Precision? Seems like you don't need it as a pally tank, Spell warding?, Stoicism?

Redoubt is useful mostly because Imp. Devotion is complete ***. 350 armor isn't worth 5 Talent Points by any stretch of the imagination, and even if Redoubt is only marginally more useful (Holy Shield ftw) it opens up Shield Spec, which is a good chunk of mitigation.

The new Imp. SotC is a godsend, because people are going to be slavering over that 3% Crit and it will usually make a lot more sense to have Holydins put up JoLight/JoWisdom and to let the Protadin spend the three points to get JoCrusader.

This will be the new cookie-cutter tanking build, I believe. You get pretty much all the tanking goodies and SotC.

Edited, Nov 13th 2007 1:38pm by RPZip

To anyone that is 70, reckoning really does begin to look like trash. Ardent defender > Reckoning. With this patch, its getting harder and harder to spend our points. Those marginally useful talents are becoming lack luster.

The threat is there, the threat is constant. Reckoning doesn't add any kind of reliability. AR will always kick, always fire. Its making that new 10% stam even better. Granted, there are some bosses and fights that will take that 35% chew it up,spit it out, leaving a gross pile of bones and blood. It's still going to be insanely useful on trash and everything else.

There we go, I thought there was something off about that. I pretty much agree with you entirely than. Thats my vote for barebones tanking.

i always love AD for those jerks that heal with only Greaters or HoTs. alot less of that "0.5 sec too late on that Greater". more like 3 secs too late...cuz i'm dead now.

alot of times i'll see my health bar dropping quick and think i'm done for. but then it slows to a creep and bam, i got healed to full again. and boy in BG, pally holding a node makes the enemy cry. imagine a rogue blowing his combo and a warrior execute while you're are still drinking your cup of coffee and dropping flash heals.

It's quite a nice boost to threat generation - the 3% melee and spell hit greatly increases the number of Judgments that land, as well as helping with those Consecrate/Shield/AvShield resists.

With so many tanking talents now, it seems that it is going to be more and more necessary for different builds as you progress in the game.

For example: Ardent Defender, Anticipation, and to a lesser degree precision become useless as you progress through the tiers.

Ardent Defender becomes useless as bosses can easily leapfrog the 35% damage gap. Anticipation becomes useless as you can make 490 defense without it, and precision becomes useless as you eventually start to stack hit rating along with your other gear.

For instance, RPZips' talent build doesn't include either Imp. Judgement or BoK. BoK while in a raid you can expect another paladin to pick it up, there's no guarantee for it to be there in 5-mans or heroics where it is better to have as a tank.

I think it might be necessary to have different specs for different situations. This wasn't needed before cause it seemed there was enough tanking talents for someone to grab, now it seems to spread out. The different specs I'm thinking of is:

1. Main tank (raiding)
I dropped a couple points in AD and the points in Imp. Seal of the Crusader in order to grab Imp. Judgement and PoJ. This will maximize the ability to take damage and throw threat. The three points in AD I couldn't fnd a better place for, though I could see putting them somewhere else.

2. Off tank (raiding)
This has slightly less threat output with the removal of Imp. Judgement, however I felt AD would be more helpful in this situation, as the OT should be expecting to take smaller hits, therefore the DR could have time to kick in. This also includes Imp. SotC as an OT is extremely suitable to have this active on the boss without it taking points away from the MT.

3. Instance tank (5-mans)
This regrabs Reckoning, as in instances you can expect to fight with little cc, and therefore will be getting hit more and should proc Reckoning more to make it worth it.


You might notice that only the instance tank grabs BoK, most healers end up speccing for BoK anyways, so it makes sense for them to grab it for raids.

Im sorry, but thats like saying cars become useless as you begin to purchase helicopters. Sure one makes the other obsolete, but they both still have their uses.

If you have Precision, you dont *need* as much hit gear, you can stack stamina.
If you have Anticipation (although I personally dont) you dont *need* as much defense gear, you can stack stamina.

Saying Ardent Defender is useless is like saying Shield Wall is useless; sure it kicks in at comparitively low health but taking the two above talents means you can stack in some more stamina-oriented gear to help out. Particularly with the new 10% increase to stamina (a godsend by the way), the number of bosses that will genuinely 'leapfrog' a tank at 35% are pretty small and in those fights (for example Gruul past 10 grows) if you're in that situation then someone else in the raid isnt doing their job.

Ardent Defender is for avoiding silly wipes on trash mobs and for those crunch moments like Vashj on 5%, everyone's out of mana, enrage timer is coming up and there's poison and bats everywhere. There are also many instances where bosses are able to two-shot even a well-geared tank, particularly those with instant strikes in addition to their regular attacks, and AD can and will save your *** in that situation; if the first attack knocks you from 90% to 35%, Ardent Defender may just let you survive the next hit.

Its kinda the trend at the moment to talk about Paladin endgame tanking (since we're now in a position to do so, as we've tanked everything in the game) and how formerly great talents are now 'useless', but they arent, they just dont melt quite so much face as they did at lvl35 in Arathi Highlands.

By the way, whichever fool genuinely believes Improved Devotional Aura beats Redoubt needs his head examined. Redoubt isnt just about damage mitigation its about *threat* too. If Redoubt is up, and you can put up Holy Shield too, you're looking at close to 80% block with good gear, 85% if you have the Sha'tar libram. That's a hell of a lot of Holy Shield threat.

~sins