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- Comprehensive Pre-Kara Holy Paladin Guide (Edited 2/12/07)
Comprehensive Pre-Kara Holy Paladin Guide (Edited 2/12/07)Follow
Edited: Well no one told me that I neglected to include a cape section so I have added it :)
I've got a quick question, I apologize if it's been answered before. A few places in the guide (such as the gem section and the ring section) you mention that the gear decision should be based largely on whether or not you "need crit." What would be a good crit value for starting Kara?
Your goal is 20% Holy Crit (not including Holy Light bonus), but I'd probably be OK if you had as low as 17% Holy Crit for starting out kara. Even then you'd probably want to gem/enchant your stuff out to get as close to 20% as you can as soon as you can.
Updated to include a consumables section.
9 posts
Thanks for this guide, Dilbrt. Really helpful. I wonder if someone can comment on the scenarios below - I saw them in a Priest forum and thought it might be useful to see how it goes with pallies.
Two pallies are raid healing and P1 has +1650 Healing, while P2 has +1200 healing. Both have base mana pools of 10,000. P1 has +MP5 of 85 and P2 has +MP5 of 160. Say the Boss fight they're in lasts seven and a half minutes (450 secs, or 90 ticks of MP5) during which time they're both spamming Holy Light, with a cast time of 2.5 secs and a mana cost of 840.
P1 will generate additional mana of 7650 during the fight, and P2 will get 14,400 extra.
So if you divide total mana of each player by the cost of the HL spell we see that P1 can cast Holy Light 21 times and P2 can cast it 29 times during the fight.
Therefore, assuming the base heal is the same for both (and can be ignored here), the +Heal is 34,650 for P1 (being 21 x 1650) and 34,800 for P2 (being 29 x 1200).
Probably there are lots of things wrong with this (I haven't included SpellCrit, for example). But it seems to me that it's possible to go long on MP5 to get results similar to someone who's loading up their +Heal. In fact, the +MP5 player can go for 8 heals longer. In theory, a player could easily sacrifice quite a bit of +Heal for MP5 and still come out ahead.
Grateful for someone to point out the error of my ways, especially as I'm crap at sums.
Two pallies are raid healing and P1 has +1650 Healing, while P2 has +1200 healing. Both have base mana pools of 10,000. P1 has +MP5 of 85 and P2 has +MP5 of 160. Say the Boss fight they're in lasts seven and a half minutes (450 secs, or 90 ticks of MP5) during which time they're both spamming Holy Light, with a cast time of 2.5 secs and a mana cost of 840.
P1 will generate additional mana of 7650 during the fight, and P2 will get 14,400 extra.
So if you divide total mana of each player by the cost of the HL spell we see that P1 can cast Holy Light 21 times and P2 can cast it 29 times during the fight.
Therefore, assuming the base heal is the same for both (and can be ignored here), the +Heal is 34,650 for P1 (being 21 x 1650) and 34,800 for P2 (being 29 x 1200).
Probably there are lots of things wrong with this (I haven't included SpellCrit, for example). But it seems to me that it's possible to go long on MP5 to get results similar to someone who's loading up their +Heal. In fact, the +MP5 player can go for 8 heals longer. In theory, a player could easily sacrifice quite a bit of +Heal for MP5 and still come out ahead.
Grateful for someone to point out the error of my ways, especially as I'm crap at sums.
Well there's a few issues with your comparison.
The first and foremost being that without an ample supply of +Heal, you just won't be able to keep your tank alive even if you have a bajillion mp5. You may be able to last forever, but your tank can't.
Also, not factoring spell crit in is a huge error margin. If the first player has 24% spell crit and the second player has 15% spell crit or vice-versa, you might get very different numbers at the end.
The first and foremost being that without an ample supply of +Heal, you just won't be able to keep your tank alive even if you have a bajillion mp5. You may be able to last forever, but your tank can't.
Also, not factoring spell crit in is a huge error margin. If the first player has 24% spell crit and the second player has 15% spell crit or vice-versa, you might get very different numbers at the end.
In your example, the player with +1600 healing will have more time efficient heals, therefore having an easier time keeping the tank alive while he has mana. Also, with +1600 healing, that player can downrank certain spells and increase mana efficiency while still doing as much healing per second as the player with +1200 healing. So it's not completely accurate to say that mp5 makes up for low +healing or is better than +healing.
Another point you didn't consider shevn is the fact that you're not going to be always casting, occasionally you'll get breaks where your mana regen will be even higher. Yes, having more heal makes your heals more effective, BUT the only time when your +healing really matters is during spike damage. If the tank is taking constant damage, then you can either go the slow but heal more often path or the heal for more, but less often, both will get you to the same end result, as your math showed.
It really depends on what raids you're doing. Early on (kara/gruul/mag/etc.) you really don't have much spike damage. Later on you can have some heavy spike damage fights (tidewalker, plus several fights in BT) where if you don't have enough healing your tank will probably die. Fortunately, by the time you really NEED the healing to handle spike damage, typically you have it. You're not going to be attempting SSC/TK wearing full blues, you're just not.
Correct me if I am wrong, your post really is asking whether stacking up on +healing stuff (ie. teardrop living rubies) or Mp5 (ie. lustrous star of elunes) would be more beneficial. My answer is, you really want a mix (ie. royal nightseye) to do well. If you try to get 2000 healing for kara, I guess it might be possible, but the moment you go to an extended battle where you have to spam Holy Light, you're going to run out of mana, and your tank will die, and most likely your raid will wipe (so you going oom = raid wipe). On the other hand if your heals only heal for a tiny amount, it may not be enough to save your tank when he takes spike damage. Fortunately at the kara level (what this guide is for), you really don't have to worry about that. Just try to get a balance between crit and Mp5 without going overboard on either, and the healing you need will be there.
It really depends on what raids you're doing. Early on (kara/gruul/mag/etc.) you really don't have much spike damage. Later on you can have some heavy spike damage fights (tidewalker, plus several fights in BT) where if you don't have enough healing your tank will probably die. Fortunately, by the time you really NEED the healing to handle spike damage, typically you have it. You're not going to be attempting SSC/TK wearing full blues, you're just not.
Correct me if I am wrong, your post really is asking whether stacking up on +healing stuff (ie. teardrop living rubies) or Mp5 (ie. lustrous star of elunes) would be more beneficial. My answer is, you really want a mix (ie. royal nightseye) to do well. If you try to get 2000 healing for kara, I guess it might be possible, but the moment you go to an extended battle where you have to spam Holy Light, you're going to run out of mana, and your tank will die, and most likely your raid will wipe (so you going oom = raid wipe). On the other hand if your heals only heal for a tiny amount, it may not be enough to save your tank when he takes spike damage. Fortunately at the kara level (what this guide is for), you really don't have to worry about that. Just try to get a balance between crit and Mp5 without going overboard on either, and the healing you need will be there.
Quote:
It really depends on what raids you're doing. Early on (kara/gruul/mag/etc.) you really don't have much spike damage. Later on you can have some heavy spike damage fights (tidewalker, plus several fights in BT) where if you don't have enough healing your tank will probably die. Fortunately, by the time you really NEED the healing to handle spike damage, typically you have it. You're not going to be attempting SSC/TK wearing full blues, you're just not.
Ah yes I was not considering the scope of the discussion.
Anyway... yeah, mix of everything is what's really necessary.
9 posts
Thanks for the replies. Balance - in all things :)
Just to round off this diversion properly, my scenario did have one omission/error: the overall healing during this hypothetical Boss fight would be P1 = 97,650 and P2 = 121,800 (assuming an average base heal of 3,000 for this exercise).
I had suggested that base heals would be the same, which is fine up until P1 runs OOM after 21 heals, but of course P2 gets off 8 more heals.
Anyway, cheers again.
Shevn
70 Holy Paladin
EU - Aerie Peak
Edited, Jan 11th 2008 5:39am by shevn
Edited, Jan 11th 2008 7:30am by shevn
Just to round off this diversion properly, my scenario did have one omission/error: the overall healing during this hypothetical Boss fight would be P1 = 97,650 and P2 = 121,800 (assuming an average base heal of 3,000 for this exercise).
I had suggested that base heals would be the same, which is fine up until P1 runs OOM after 21 heals, but of course P2 gets off 8 more heals.
Anyway, cheers again.
Shevn
70 Holy Paladin
EU - Aerie Peak
Edited, Jan 11th 2008 5:39am by shevn
Edited, Jan 11th 2008 7:30am by shevn
39 posts
The mail healing gloves from the third boss in steamvaults is a very good pair until you can heal kara and heroics. and its not hard to obtain, plus there are plenty of items from steamvaults you should want as a holy paly so run it a lot.
7 posts
I was just wondering how much crit you'd say was "enough".
I've never personally been in a situation where I've relied on mp5, I've always managed not to oom in any pre-kara situation and I've healed most heroics in average 70 blues.
I'd reckon it's nearly worth taking crit gear over mp5. The pvp gear is a good example. I'd always advise that holydins get the pvp set gloves, just for the 2% crit on FoL. They don't cost much honor and are miles better than anything pre-kara.
I'm sure there are occasions when mp5 will be much more useful, I'm probably just yet to encounter them.
I've never personally been in a situation where I've relied on mp5, I've always managed not to oom in any pre-kara situation and I've healed most heroics in average 70 blues.
I'd reckon it's nearly worth taking crit gear over mp5. The pvp gear is a good example. I'd always advise that holydins get the pvp set gloves, just for the 2% crit on FoL. They don't cost much honor and are miles better than anything pre-kara.
I'm sure there are occasions when mp5 will be much more useful, I'm probably just yet to encounter them.
numberonedaw wrote:
The mail healing gloves from the third boss in steamvaults is a very good pair until you can heal kara and heroics. and its not hard to obtain, plus there are plenty of items from steamvaults you should want as a holy paly so run it a lot.
Those gloves are damage and healing and only meh at best. Honestly I'd rather have the cloth gloves off the first boss in Botanica more so than those.
DudMasta wrote:
I was just wondering how much crit you'd say was "enough".
For Kara, you should be sitting at 19-20% holy crit
DudMasta wrote:
I've never personally been in a situation where I've relied on mp5, I've always managed not to oom in any pre-kara situation and I've healed most heroics in average 70 blues.
I'd reckon it's nearly worth taking crit gear over mp5. The pvp gear is a good example. I'd always advise that holydins get the pvp set gloves, just for the 2% crit on FoL. They don't cost much honor and are miles better than anything pre-kara.
I'm sure there are occasions when mp5 will be much more useful, I'm probably just yet to encounter them.
I'd reckon it's nearly worth taking crit gear over mp5. The pvp gear is a good example. I'd always advise that holydins get the pvp set gloves, just for the 2% crit on FoL. They don't cost much honor and are miles better than anything pre-kara.
I'm sure there are occasions when mp5 will be much more useful, I'm probably just yet to encounter them.
The problem with stacking crit (post-illunation nerf) is that once your mana is gone, its extremely hard to get it back. For short fights, crit is better (hence why crit is better in PvP), but the longer a fight goes, the more mp5 becomes a balanced stat with crit. I would go AFTER crit first, get the amount you need first, then start stacking healing and mp5 after that, with no ceiling on healing or mp5.
I know I'm a minority when I say this... but I am of the mind that in terms of Raiding... Shammy Healing gear is best. Head to www.lootzor.com and check the filters out. You will see a trend... in Shammy gear which will emphasize healing and MP5 and less on crit. Crit is "pretty" but it's all about lasting... I'm personally moving in the "Pally in Shaman gear" direction... they laugh... they do... but when you're healing 40%+ in a raid... you'll know you've done good...
I'm glad you brought this up. There are some that use that theory, and I'm not going to say that you're flat out wrong, because that is one way to heal, but its not the most effective way. The reason paladins use a lot more crit than shamans is that we get a return on mana when we crit, as I'm sure you know. That 60%, while not as amazing as it used to be, is still a significant amount of mana in the terms of sustained healing. Shamans don't get anything special when they crit, so there is little reason for them to stack it. I think that you'll find that if you compare two healers casting straight spells, that the player who has a balance between crit and mp5 lasts a lot longer than the person with straight mp5. I don't say this because I've crunched numbers sitting there with HPS meters and what not, I say this because I've been there and tried healing that way. I found out that having a balance really helps not only you, but also the person being healed too. Crit heals have saved more tanks than I can count. I'm sure you could find studies out there of people that like to crunch numbers showing how stacking crit increases your healing done up to a point of diminishing returns in losing other stats, and also for stacking mp5 to the point of lowering other stats, but I don't have any links handy as I haven't felt the need to look up the info.
Updated the mace section
2 posts
Could you update this for 2.4?
Obliterati wrote:
Could you update this for 2.4?
You created an account just to say that? =p I'm not sure adding in the 2.4 badge loot is within the scope of this guide, personally. The main thing is that to get the HUNDREDS of badges to get the 2.4 loot, you're pretty much have to be running kara. If you're running kara already, then you're beyond the scope of this guide. The main purpose of this guide was to give you options for gear that you can get completely outside of kara, without ever so much as setting a foot inside. Once you actually start raiding, you should be able to decide for yourself what is an upgrade and what isn't. The purpose of this guide is to help people that have no clue what to get where, so that they're not trying to do kara in greens or ret gear.
The ONLY THINGS that might be relevant from 2.4 is the engineering goggles and the alchemy trinket. That I might add in, in the near future. Note that I have retired my paladin completely for my hunter, and so paladin research has taken the back burner.
I'd also list the mace off of the third boss in MrT and the SSO rep mace K'iru's Presage as potential weapons.
Also the Exalted healing necklace from SSO Rep, and the Figurine: Seaspray Albatross as a mana-regen trinket.
These are all available to pre-raid, pre-heroic characters. In some cases you may have to dish out the cash though (Seaspray Emeralds aren't cheap for a new 70).
Even then, I understand entirely that Pally research isn't #1 on Dil's agenda. Grats on your success with your hunter.
Also the Exalted healing necklace from SSO Rep, and the Figurine: Seaspray Albatross as a mana-regen trinket.
These are all available to pre-raid, pre-heroic characters. In some cases you may have to dish out the cash though (Seaspray Emeralds aren't cheap for a new 70).
Even then, I understand entirely that Pally research isn't #1 on Dil's agenda. Grats on your success with your hunter.
If an actual paladin wants to take over, I don't mind letting you copy/paste my stuff and make a new, updated one.
You could probably ask bodh, he's probably the next most experienced holy paladin who regularly posts around here. Though I do shudder at the prospect of him hosting a sticky lol.
I did ask him, he refused. Damn alliance.
This has been wikified as well. You can see it here: http://wow.allakhazam.com/wiki/Pre-Kara_Holy_Paladin_Guide_%28WoW%29
Man, you goin crazy with that wiki button.
Wikify! Wikify! Stand on up and Wikify!!
Wikify! Wikify! Stand on up and Wikify!!
Oo Wiki.... must... edit....
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