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#1 Nov 11 2007 at 12:29 PM Rating: Decent
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I dinged my hunter 70 not very long ago and I am still bit confused about agi versus AP (blonde when it comes to maths... well lazy better say >.<)

So should I replace my agi gems with AP ones, does it really matter since I am just doing 5 mans and farming gold for epic flyer, should I simply wait until I get enough rep to get design for +24 ap gems... and maybe some suggestions about getting few better pieces of gear. I am already doing SV and the rest in hope of getting some beast lord piece but I had no luck so far. Same with Slab and Sonic Spear.
I do know my trinket is a rogue one but it still gives me nice AP imo :p

Constructive critics and suggestions please :)

http://armory.worldofwarcraft.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Nagrand&n=Bea

#2 Nov 11 2007 at 1:16 PM Rating: Good
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First off, AP bit:
In terms of gems it's distributed roughly like this: 1 crit rating = 1 agi = 2 AP. It's the same with AP and agi if you look at green items "... of Power" and "... of Agility".

However, in terms of DPS they aren't equal, and that's just not regarding specs. Any SV hunter should know that agi and crit > AP. With BM and MM it's not quite the same.

Assume [Steelhawk Crossbow], 1.5k AP and 15% crit unbuffed (pretty mediocre considering the weapon... but meh).

So, you average weapon damage is 221(.5) and you damage from AP is 300. This makes your Auto Shots ~522 damage. If you factor in crit chance: 521.5 * 1.15 = ~600.
For Arcane Shot it'd look like this: 273 + (1 500 * 0.15) = 498 and with crit multiplyer: 498 * 1.15 = ~573 (however, note that this damage, unlike the one from SS and Auto Shot, isn't mitigatable by armour).
The SS formula is a ***** to calculate, but it's safe to assume that SS and Arcane do the same damage pre-mitigation (ie. ~500, 575 with crit multiplyer).

Now, most of your damage will be Auto Shot. Second is almost always Steady Shot (unless you factor in your pet's Auto Attack). Below that is often Arcane Shot, and that's basicly your 3 most used abilities (or at least mine...). My Multi Shot and Aimed Shot are way below that... Mainly because Aimed is a lack luster in PvE, and Multi Shot is highly situational.

Now, 40 agi = 1% crit. So is 22.08 crit rating. So, basicly every +agi gives you 0.552 crit rating. 1 agi is also 1 AP, so as you can see 1 agi = 1 AP (which is half of 2 AP) and 0.552 crit rating (which is slightly more than half of 1 crit rating). So that's just a quick overview of how the stat distrubution in gems isn't exact. Let's go into more deeper maths:

I cannae be ***** to calcualte small amounts here, so we're going to say we increase our stats with each of 40 agi, 40 crit rating and 80 attack power.

Your average Auto Shot, crit multiplyer included, was at 600. Now, add 40 agi and see where you land: (1 540 * 2.8 / 14) + 221.5 = 529.5
Add crit: 529.5 * 1.16 = 614.22

So, your auto shot goes from 600 to 614.22 with +40 agi.

Same thing, different stat: Add 40 crit rating.
(1 500 * 2.8 / 14) + 221.5 = 521.5
521.5 * 1.168 = 609.112

Your auto shot goes from 600 to 609.1 with +40 crit rating.

Ok, you know the drill by now, add 80 AP:

(1 580 * 2.8 / 14) + 221.5 = 537.5
537.5 * 1.15 = 618.125

Your auto shot goes from 600 to 618.1 with +80 AP.

That's pretty much it... There maybe arguments of buffs and such scaling with agi (like BoK, +10%) but it's easy enough to see that 10% really isn't alot in those terms. Basicly you'd be hitting for 615.64 (I think...) instead of 614.22.

And when you take into consideration that SV isn't an option when it comes to agi vs. AP, and the fact that MM has a constant increase of 10% to your RAP, and last but not least that while being BM your pet scales with your AP. Thereby it scales with your agi to the extent that it gives AP (ie. does not scale with the crit you gain from it), it doesn't scale with your +crit rating at all, but gets FULL benefit if you were to give yourself all-out AP gems.

This is a bit unfair though, since I didn't take into consideration Mortal Shots. This will increase your damage from crits by roughly 15%, and therefore give a very minor boost (similar to the one that BoK gave agi) and bump the +crit case up a few notches. Problem is that that was the worst case in all of the scenarios, so don't go for +crit gems in a hurry.

There are other things to take into consideration, for example GftT for BM. This is a bit unnecessary though, or so I believe. From this I simply want you to draw the conclution that AP > agi > crit gear-wise.



Your spec: Cookie cutter, 'cept you should max Imp. Mend Pet. Other than that, I really like it. With your gemming, however, it'd be more logical to spec SV.
Your gear: Very good. You're more than on the right track. You're kara ready, to say the least.
Gems/enchs: As I've proved above, AP > agi, so I'd advise you to change those. You've done very well in only matching the socked bonuses which are worth it. Your enchants are also very much in the right place.
#3 Nov 11 2007 at 3:06 PM Rating: Decent
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I think you should gem for AP and crit as BM, basically checkout and try to get desolation armor, then gem what it regards to.

From my current understanding, desolation is some good pre-raid kara BM MM gear, I was going for it before I speced to survival.
#4 Nov 11 2007 at 11:33 PM Rating: Decent
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Desolation is a lot more Ap/hit focused then Beastlord so pure dps wise its better.
The bad part about it is that there are a couple of pieces at the end of heroic instances (yes indeed, the same bosses you can get epics from) so by the time your doing those, its better to just go for the epics anyway...

The thing at 70 you want most is probably getting your tempest keep heroic key.
for 2 reasons: 1 every TK heroic has a hunter epic at the end and 2: nothing is done as much as Mechanar.
So the epic gloves from mechanar are easy to get and pretty solid too.
Heroic Botanica is also not to hard and has some very pretty boots at the end.
And by running them you're well on your way to getting a new trinket that will last you into 25-mans (SSC/TK, and pretty damn far into it too)
#5 Nov 12 2007 at 3:10 AM Rating: Decent
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1,292 posts
Sethy wrote:
should I replace my agi gems with AP ones, does it really matter since I am just doing 5 mans and farming gold for epic flyer, should I simply wait until I get enough rep to get design for +24 ap gems... and maybe some suggestions about getting few better pieces of gear.
It kinda depends on your goals. If getting the epic flyer is your goal, then you don't need to worry about your gear while you pursue that goal. If it's about the DPS, then AP will serve you better, but improving your Hit Rating should also be a goal. Get to at least 79, and higher is better for Boss fights. 142 will eliminate misses against Bosses.
#6 Nov 12 2007 at 4:07 AM Rating: Decent
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If i understood all the math in other threads, go for +ap until you reach about 300 tooltip dps, after that agility will do more for you.
#7 Nov 13 2007 at 4:13 AM Rating: Decent
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1,571 posts
Wow Utarius, that is one fine (and long) explanation.... thanks a lot :)

I replaced 7 of my +8 agi gems with +16 AP ones. I am including consortium rep grind into my ordinary schedule to get that +24 bop design as well.

Quote:
Desolation is a lot more Ap/hit focused then Beastlord so pure dps wise its better.


I want Beastlord for that trap CD bonus, I find trapping fun and exciting, tho not so much to spec SV. I am very proud when I can maintain a main CC and top dps role in equally geared groups so I think it would help me.

I am not planning on running any heroics least Kara yet, we still have some people in guild leveling and though we can get good pugs I would prefer to wait for guildies.

Quote:
It kinda depends on your goals. If getting the epic flyer is your goal, then you don't need to worry about your gear while you pursue that goal.


Well, getting the epic flyer is one of my goals. Lets say that my priority is having fun with people I like :)
Today I spent few hours just running around and fishing with guildies and it was very entertaining.

If I focused only on getting that mount I would probably have it in 5-6 days. I have pretty well equipped lock I use for farming mostly now and doing only dailies with 2 toons would get me nice income. Not counting my usual cut gems sales and other stuff.

The thing is I like to run occasional instance and I feel better overall if I have at least half decent gear. I had couple +agi enchants on this toons daggers at level 40ish and on.... and they are not cheap. I dont like to neglect any aspect of my game even if it means buying 7 AP gems for replacement all at once :p

Thanks for the tip on +hit though, I will have to consider getting it too.

Quote:
If i understood all the math in other threads, go for +ap until you reach about 300 tooltip dps, after that agility will do more for you.


With AotH my tooltip dps is 320ish and without it just over 300. So I guess I can keep the rest of my +agi gems now :)

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