Damage question.Follow

If you're running out of mana you're doing something wrong.
Armory link plz.

Well, that may be the first raidbuild I have ever seen with two points in Efficiency. In the voice of the mechanic from Dukes of Hazzard: "Well there's your problem!". Amongst others. With BM being a very fast shooter's build, efficiency will drop your mana loss by enormous amounts. You will use more shots, but you will also use helluvalot more mana as BM. Thus, Efficiency maxed is a must. That's one point.

A few others would be: What the hell kind of shot rotation are you running where you blow over 3.5k mana + Potion in less than two minutes? (Assuming of course that you should have used a pot at 50% at the latest.) And I am not even calculating the mp5 here, nor the BoW or Mana Oils.

A third: Why on earth have you made yourself that build? The BM part is all good, but why split the rest? You have to make a decision when raiding. That decision is vital to your DPS, and efficiency. Do I go for DPS or utility? In a raid, we most often go for DPS, but utility is also a possibility. But you can't really have both unless you go Survival, and that will be less DPS for ya.

Skip the Surv tree entirely, or go for a Survival build. That's good advice for you right there.

Oh, and I still would like to see your armory. Easier to see where you could have gone wrong gearwise and so on. And yes, if you run out of mana on bossfights, you have gone wrong somewhere.

On my Talent build. It is not a solo-only build at all. I don't know how someone could look at it and get that impression. Solo I almost never use traps, because almost all of my solo play is grinding singles for motes or whatever. And I'd never buy trapping talents for solo play in any event. But this does speak directly to why I don't post my Armory link. I am not a huntard, and so I have zero need or desire to have others apply their judgments to how I play the game or the decisions I've made in gear or Talent selection.

My Talent build is quite excellent for trapping in both Kara and Heroics, and still allows me to deliver "good enough" DPS. Yes, I could improve my DPS with more MM Talents. I made a conscious decision to buy my way up to 2/2 Clever Traps.

I moved to this build when my Guild first entered Kara. Prior to that I had the points which are now in SV in MM, which gave me the remaining 3/5 Efficiency , GftT, Rapid Killing, and maybe a few other things I don't remember now that a lot of time has past. The trapping Talents are probably no longer necessary for Kara, but they do work well in Heroics. And given that I'm currently unguilded Heroics is about the extent of my play with my Hunter of late.

Kara is a 10 person raid. But definitions aside, were my former Guild to have moved on to Gruul's or SSC while I was a member, I'd have respecced. I was considering a respec in any event, as after Moroes is mastered trapping isn't terribly handy in Kara except for general trash clearing. I kept it because one of the RL always liked the fact that I was a slightly more solid trapper than the other Hunters, and still beat them on the WWS logs.

Soloing, no, as I've explained. Heroics and early Kara, yes. This was my intent when I respeced. I don't need any of the SV Talents other than 3/3 Hawkeye to solo. And Hawkeye is a preference, not a requirement. Frankly, I could let my cat select my Talents if I wanted a "solo build", solo play is so trivial for Hunters that any collection of Talents is a "solo build".

The Mark isn't so far off in AP from similar Trinkets, the loss of DPS is not so vast. It's got 54 AP native, and only lacks the on use ability of similar Trinkets. And the mana regen is incredibly significant.

But don't take my word for it. Surf over to TKA or EJ and see how they rate it. Or wear it for a raid and check your WWS logs to see what it did for you. You might become a convert.

I didn't bother reading through all the responses, so if this has already been said then I apolegize in advance. Don't feel bad if a mage out dps'ed you. IMO, a mage will just about always (assuming hes not a moron) out dps an equally geared hunter. Honestly, I can't remember the last time a hunter has out dps'ed my mage..it has probably happened at some point in lower levels, but its been a while.

Yes, I am SV now. Used to be Beastmastery. Now, it is true that I have talents you don't. That is in fact part of the problem, and you should have accomodated that with full Efficiency and if necessary, Mana Oils.

I don't understand why you are being so stubborn about this? Mana regen on a trinket is quite simply not necessary for a Hunter unless you have either a horrible specc for raiding, or your gear is far from what you should have had. And Aethien is BM I believe, and still doesn't need Mana Regen on a trinket.

The whole point is this: Recommending that Mark as a Trinket would be either for a very inefficient offspecc, or for someone who isn't really geared right for his specc anyway. Why? Because there are far more beneficial DPS trinkets out there which will help you immensely in a raid.

This is not rocket surgery. In fact, it isn't even debatable.

jup, also havent had mana problems as SV or MM.

And exactly how does a MM hunter fire faster then a SV hunter?

I find this a little hard to believe.

I am MM spec (0/42/19). Unbuffed, my mana is 7,093. Raid buffed, I'm typically pushing about 8.8-9k. I use mana oil and draenic wisdom for the longer fights. I pop pots usually as soon as possible. In a longer fight like Gruul, which is strictly balls out dps with no concern for aggro, there have been times when I've run out of mana. It's happened roughly 13-15th growth. I pop Viper and alternate Steady/Auto shot while I wait for CD on mana pot. Any of the long 25-man boss fights, mana becomes an issue.

I'm not suggesting the mana trinket is a good choice, I don't believe it is either. But, I find it hard to believe a MM hasn't had mana problems.

Break it down guys.

If you go all out, every spec should be out of mana in a fight lasting longer than a couple of minutes, even with Viper up.

I can blow through my mana pool (and that's with a larger than normal pool for a hunter at my level) in less than a minute if I go all out. We're talking dumping all your instants, sting, steadies, etc. Might as well fire up the Hoover vacuum on your mana.

I think North is talking about an extended fight where you settle into a long term shot rotation and only use your specials as you can slip them in or as necessary. In that process, as an MM spec Hunter I can keep my mana above 50% for quite a while.

It's possible for both sides to be right here. I don't think you guys are talking the same kind of fight. Any smart Hunter would want their mana to last the fight and you should know roughly how long you are in for and set your rotation to match. More autoshots = longer mana endurance. AotV will pull down dps per shot but make you last longer which is more dps over time as you can still weave in your steady's.

If someone is using a trinket instead of AotV their per shot dps may not be as much as someone with a different trinket (dps style) but they may do better in longer fights and have similar if not higher dps than the other trinket if that hunter goes OOM.

Again, you guys could be arguing playstyle here and find out that your dps numbers aren't that far off from each other or worth arguing over. My challenge here is for you guys to go out on a limb and put out solid numbers what you expect in dps for a RAID hunter (not agility, AP or whatever). No matter what the gear or spec or trinkets, if the hunter can MEET that level of dps, then they are acceptable on the dps front- no?