Hi has anyone done math for how good actually "ignore xxx armor" is compared to for example crit rating?
What is better - ignore 150 armor or crit rating 24 for example.
What do you think of the new gear warrior can solo? How good is it for MS/Fury?
I have my own view but I would like to know what do you think. ^^
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I'm curious about this too. How does "armor" work mathematically? It can't be a linear relationship otherwise you'd quickly get enough armor that mobs would be hitting for 0. So I'm thinking it has diminishing returns at higher levels. If this is true, then "Ignore xxx armor" is probably not very useful against mobs with very high armor.
But, this is just a rough guess.
But, this is just a rough guess.
http://www.wowwiki.com/Armor
Table is off in here, look up the page if you want the columns to line up. Basically it should give roughly the same % damage increase vs. a bear druid or vs. a priest without inner fire up. Not sure how it compares though, but that's how armor works.
Quote:
According to Blizzard UI elements, the formulas for Damage Reduction are as follows for WoW 2.0.8
Levels 1 - 59 DR% = Armor / (Armor+400+85*Level)
Levels 60+ DR% = Armor / (Armor+400+85*(Level+4.5*(Level-59)))
Consider the following table which can be derived from the above formula for a lvl 70 tank taking 1000 DPS of "raw" damage:
Armor 0 5k 10k 15k 20k 25k 30k
DPS taken 1000 666 500 410 350 300 260
DPS reduced by the last
5k armor 0 333 166 90 60 50 40
relative DPS reduction by the last
5k armor 0 33% 25% 18% 15% 14% 13%
As can be seen, the effectiveness of adding another 5k of armor is getting lower, there is a "diminishing returns" effect with respect to the DPS reduction. It isn't as pronounced as it may seem looking at the absolute numbers, though. The last line shows that the relative value of 5k armor drops from 33% to 13%, meaning that at the start, one point of AC will be about three times as effective in terms of DPS reduction as near the end. Thus, armor exhibits diminishing returns with respect to the total amount of healing needed to keep a tank alive.
Armor vs. Effective Time to Live for Level 70 Characters
Armor vs. Effective Time to Live for Level 70 Characters
However, in terms of absolute time to live with respect to melee attacks, armor has no diminishing return effect. Given a constant melee DPS amount, each additional point of armor (whether it be from 0 to 1 or from 30000 to 30001) will increase the tanks time to live by the same effective amount. 1k additional armor increases time to live by approximately 9.47%, as shown by the graph. The formula for calculating time to live with respect to melee attacks is:
Effective time to live = 1/(1-DR%) * Base time to live
Where DR% is calculated according to the above formula. In this way, armor can be thought of as increasing the effective health of the tank with respect to melee attacks. Since DR caps at 75%, effective time to live caps at 400% of the tanks base time to live (time to live if the tank had no armor).
Prior to hitting the cap, armor is certainly a very desirable stat for tanks, but difficult to find. Most items of similar quality and rarity have similar armor values, and extra armor can be found only very rarely.
Levels 1 - 59 DR% = Armor / (Armor+400+85*Level)
Levels 60+ DR% = Armor / (Armor+400+85*(Level+4.5*(Level-59)))
Consider the following table which can be derived from the above formula for a lvl 70 tank taking 1000 DPS of "raw" damage:
Armor 0 5k 10k 15k 20k 25k 30k
DPS taken 1000 666 500 410 350 300 260
DPS reduced by the last
5k armor 0 333 166 90 60 50 40
relative DPS reduction by the last
5k armor 0 33% 25% 18% 15% 14% 13%
As can be seen, the effectiveness of adding another 5k of armor is getting lower, there is a "diminishing returns" effect with respect to the DPS reduction. It isn't as pronounced as it may seem looking at the absolute numbers, though. The last line shows that the relative value of 5k armor drops from 33% to 13%, meaning that at the start, one point of AC will be about three times as effective in terms of DPS reduction as near the end. Thus, armor exhibits diminishing returns with respect to the total amount of healing needed to keep a tank alive.
Armor vs. Effective Time to Live for Level 70 Characters
Armor vs. Effective Time to Live for Level 70 Characters
However, in terms of absolute time to live with respect to melee attacks, armor has no diminishing return effect. Given a constant melee DPS amount, each additional point of armor (whether it be from 0 to 1 or from 30000 to 30001) will increase the tanks time to live by the same effective amount. 1k additional armor increases time to live by approximately 9.47%, as shown by the graph. The formula for calculating time to live with respect to melee attacks is:
Effective time to live = 1/(1-DR%) * Base time to live
Where DR% is calculated according to the above formula. In this way, armor can be thought of as increasing the effective health of the tank with respect to melee attacks. Since DR caps at 75%, effective time to live caps at 400% of the tanks base time to live (time to live if the tank had no armor).
Prior to hitting the cap, armor is certainly a very desirable stat for tanks, but difficult to find. Most items of similar quality and rarity have similar armor values, and extra armor can be found only very rarely.
Table is off in here, look up the page if you want the columns to line up. Basically it should give roughly the same % damage increase vs. a bear druid or vs. a priest without inner fire up. Not sure how it compares though, but that's how armor works.
Did the math:
DR = Armor / (Armor+400+85*(Level+4.5*(Level-59)))
Level 70 DR = Armor / (Armor+400+85*(70+4.5*(70-59)))
Level 70 DR = Armor / (Armor+10557.5)
Time to live (TTL) = 1 / ( 1 - (Armor / Armor + 10557.5) )
If you assume an item reduces armor by 150, that would decrease TTL by:
1/(1-(150/(150+10557.5)) = 1.0142079, or an increase in ~1.4% DPS.
So let's find the armor needed to get a 1% increase in DPS, and compare that to the crit rating to give 1% more DPS (i.e. 1% crit, assuming no talents). This is where algebra comes in handy...or a graphing calculator than can do the work for me.
Y = 1 / ( 1 - ( X / ( X + 10557.5 ) )
Where Y is time to live increased by X armor.
X = 105.575, Y = 1.01
Logically, losing that much armor should increase DPS dealt by 1%. So 105.575 armor reduction = 22.08 crit rating.
(150/105.575)*22.08 =
(Note that while DR is not linear, TTL is). So Ignore 150 Armor should be equal to 31.37 crit rating.
DR = Armor / (Armor+400+85*(Level+4.5*(Level-59)))
Level 70 DR = Armor / (Armor+400+85*(70+4.5*(70-59)))
Level 70 DR = Armor / (Armor+10557.5)
Time to live (TTL) = 1 / ( 1 - (Armor / Armor + 10557.5) )
If you assume an item reduces armor by 150, that would decrease TTL by:
1/(1-(150/(150+10557.5)) = 1.0142079, or an increase in ~1.4% DPS.
So let's find the armor needed to get a 1% increase in DPS, and compare that to the crit rating to give 1% more DPS (i.e. 1% crit, assuming no talents). This is where algebra comes in handy...or a graphing calculator than can do the work for me.
Y = 1 / ( 1 - ( X / ( X + 10557.5 ) )
Where Y is time to live increased by X armor.
X = 105.575, Y = 1.01
Logically, losing that much armor should increase DPS dealt by 1%. So 105.575 armor reduction = 22.08 crit rating.
(150/105.575)*22.08 =
(Note that while DR is not linear, TTL is). So Ignore 150 Armor should be equal to 31.37 crit rating.
Quote:
Table is off in here, look up the page if you want the columns to line up. Basically it should give roughly the same % damage increase vs. a bear druid or vs. a priest without inner fire up. Not sure how it compares though, but that's how armor works.
The argument for a linear increase is fundamentally nonsense, sprinkled with a few facts to make it sound more coherent than it is.
In essence, the argument is that any set amount of armor gives you a linear increase in absolute time to live... which is, in fact, true. Using totally made-up numbers here for a moment, 2000 armor buys you two seconds to live no matter if you have 0 base armor or 15,000 base armor (assuming the Stamina is the same between the two). The reason this isn't relevant is that those same two seconds to live on a Priest may double her damage mitigation (going from two seconds to kill her to four), whereas on a Paladin it may be 10% or less (going from 20 seconds to 22 seconds). What matters in PvP isn't really time to live, it's incoming DPS and how much you can outpace incoming heals.
Long story short - Armor Penetration has a much higher effect on low-armor targets than high-armor targets, although it's good versus both.
That's true RPZip, but I think my math holds out. A decrease in time to live corresponds to an increase in DPS.
Didn't see your second post when I made mine, heh.
Your math assumes that TTL is a base value of 100. It's not, it varies from player to player.
Your math assumes that TTL is a base value of 100. It's not, it varies from player to player.
Well, it multiplies it by the base time. So for a percentage (not the actual value) you use 100% as the base. Obviously 1% crit is going to mean killing someone with 5k HP faster than someone with 10k, at the same rate too.
Quote:
So Ignore 150 Armor should be equal to 31.37 crit rating.
Hmm It doesn't look as it is so simple. In tank gear with 16 k armor loosing 150 will not produce a lot of damage taken more. Surly not same as over 1,5 % crit from 30 crit rating.
On the other hand if target has low armor and is sundred already - it might be much much more.....
WTB 30 slot bags to carry DPS gear for low armor and high armor bosses :/
Krisss wrote:
Quote:
So Ignore 150 Armor should be equal to 31.37 crit rating.
Hmm It doesn't look as it is so simple. In tank gear with 16 k armor loosing 150 will not produce a lot of damage taken more. Surly not same as over 1,5 % crit from 30 crit rating.
On the other hand if target has low armor and is sundred already - it might be much much more.....
WTB 30 slot bags to carry DPS gear for low armor and high armor bosses :/
You're right, it's not so simple. I worked it out earlier on paper but the end result is complicated enough that it's not even worth posting, it ends up being a quadratic equation involving Target's Armor, Crit Rating to compare, - XXX Armor to compare, and base crit rate. So in other words it's totally situational. The only thing that always remains the same is that if you're fighting something with high armor, use +crit. If you're fighting something with lower armor, use ignores XXX armor.
In THIS spreadsheet, I put in the armor penetration as a stat. And sunder debuff, and curse of recklessness, and faerie fire. So, ideally, you should be able to compair 24 crit rating to 150 armor penetration. I have the dps adjusted to armor mitigation based on armor values of the mob.
Say on most boss mobs they have 7700 armor (this is a generalization).
RPZip already posted something like this earlier, maybe I'll find it later and quote them (him her? can't tell). But 150 armor pen is a variable amount of dps boost, just like crit.
the more you have of armor pen, the better it works for you.
So stacking armor pen is actually a VERY nice way to increase personal DPS.
With 3690 armor (7700 - 5x sunder, CoR, FF) a lvl 73 mob has 23.58% mitigation.
With 3540 armor, 22.08%
A 1.5% increase.
But if you stack roughly 500 or 1000 armor pen, you get way more out of each 100 you stack.
At 300 armor pen, 20.53% mitigation; 1.55% increase on dps (from 150 armor pen)
At 450 armor pen, 18.92%, 1.61% increase (from 300 ap)
600 AP, 17.23%, 1.69% (from 450 ap)
750, 15.48%, 1.75% (from 600)
and so on and so on.
24 Crit rating ~ 1.09% crit?
So your looking at an increase from 150 armor pen being higher than 24 crit rating, generally.
These values are just generalizations, some mobs have higher mitigation, and others have less.
Edited, Nov 8th 2007 3:15pm by devioususer
Say on most boss mobs they have 7700 armor (this is a generalization).
RPZip already posted something like this earlier, maybe I'll find it later and quote them (him her? can't tell). But 150 armor pen is a variable amount of dps boost, just like crit.
the more you have of armor pen, the better it works for you.
So stacking armor pen is actually a VERY nice way to increase personal DPS.
With 3690 armor (7700 - 5x sunder, CoR, FF) a lvl 73 mob has 23.58% mitigation.
With 3540 armor, 22.08%
A 1.5% increase.
But if you stack roughly 500 or 1000 armor pen, you get way more out of each 100 you stack.
At 300 armor pen, 20.53% mitigation; 1.55% increase on dps (from 150 armor pen)
At 450 armor pen, 18.92%, 1.61% increase (from 300 ap)
600 AP, 17.23%, 1.69% (from 450 ap)
750, 15.48%, 1.75% (from 600)
and so on and so on.
24 Crit rating ~ 1.09% crit?
So your looking at an increase from 150 armor pen being higher than 24 crit rating, generally.
These values are just generalizations, some mobs have higher mitigation, and others have less.
Edited, Nov 8th 2007 3:15pm by devioususer
amount stat dps gain
(+) 10 Hit Rating: 4.60
(+) 10 Crit Rating: 7.10
(+) 10 Strength (20 AP): 5.90
(+) 10 Haste Rating: 4.70
(+) 10 Expertise Rating: 7.20
(+) 100 Ignore Armor: 8.00
^ taken from the FINALLY up site of maxdps.com <- [not fully updated with new items just yet, but has most of them]
this is also again mobs [and bosses] not players.
(+) 10 Hit Rating: 4.60
(+) 10 Crit Rating: 7.10
(+) 10 Strength (20 AP): 5.90
(+) 10 Haste Rating: 4.70
(+) 10 Expertise Rating: 7.20
(+) 100 Ignore Armor: 8.00
^ taken from the FINALLY up site of maxdps.com <- [not fully updated with new items just yet, but has most of them]
this is also again mobs [and bosses] not players.
those formula's are for unmitigated and unavoided dps.
they didn't calculate for armor or avoidance.
And those numbers you provided, are relative your stats. They are not static values of comparison for any and all warriors.
For me it looks like;
(+) 10 Hit Rating: 3.60
(+) 10 Crit Rating: 5.20
(+) 10 Strength (20 AP): 5.70
(+) 10 Haste Rating: 3.60
(+) 10 Expertise Rating: 5.30
(+) 100 Ignore Armor: 6.00
they didn't calculate for armor or avoidance.
And those numbers you provided, are relative your stats. They are not static values of comparison for any and all warriors.
For me it looks like;
(+) 10 Hit Rating: 3.60
(+) 10 Crit Rating: 5.20
(+) 10 Strength (20 AP): 5.70
(+) 10 Haste Rating: 3.60
(+) 10 Expertise Rating: 5.30
(+) 100 Ignore Armor: 6.00
Right, but the ratio will be the same (except for +strength). Crit, hit, armor reduction, and haste are all a percentage increase. Also, according to wowwiki, the TTL increases the same from 0-150 armor as it does from 10000-10150 armor, so the current armor they have shouldn't make a difference.
Avoidance isn't usually counted into crit vs. hit formulas either (except for the cap of to-hit benefits) or into crit vs. AP formulas, why would it make too much of a difference in a crit vs. Armor Pen?
Avoidance isn't usually counted into crit vs. hit formulas either (except for the cap of to-hit benefits) or into crit vs. AP formulas, why would it make too much of a difference in a crit vs. Armor Pen?
thats odd, i did it with 3 different stat groups [although the same ratios] and it made the same dps to me.
but in any case, you can just go there to see what would be a better upgrade in dps ;)
but in any case, you can just go there to see what would be a better upgrade in dps ;)
Quote:
Avoidance isn't usually counted into crit vs. hit formulas either (except for the cap of to-hit benefits) or into crit vs. AP formulas, why would it make too much of a difference in a crit vs. Armor Pen?
Because 1% crit means that 1% more swings will crit, but 1% more damage on every swing is going to vary wildly based on avoidance/crit rates. It should be factored into Crit vs. AP.
Quote:
RPZip already posted something like this earlier, maybe I'll find it later and quote them (him her? can't tell). But 150 armor pen is a variable amount of dps boost, just like crit.
Him, and yes, it's variable.
Quote:
Also, according to wowwiki, the TTL increases the same from 0-150 armor as it does from 10000-10150 armor, so the current armor they have shouldn't make a difference.
It's variable according to Stamina. 0->2000 armor is the same as 10,000->12,000, but the impact that has on TTL in absolute terms will be different if you have 8k HP vs. 12k HP.
And again, TTL isn't relevant - if you go from having to heal 800 DPS on a target to 900 DPS that's a much, much larger increase than 400 to 450 DPS even if the TTL impact is the same. Dropping 2,000 armor may be something like a ~15% DPS increase on a low-armor target, but may drop to ~10% on a high-armor target, and the DPS changes are _all_ you care about.
Quote:
^ taken from the FINALLY up site of maxdps.com <- [not fully updated with new items just yet, but has most of them]
this is also again mobs [and bosses] not players.
Based on... what, exactly?
Right, but if someone has different amounts of health then TTL will be affected differently based on crit, too.
skribs wrote:
Right, but if someone has different amounts of health then TTL will be affected differently based on crit, too.
Yes, this is why it's largely an irrelevant measurement... and why claims that say that Armor is a linear boost because it causes a linear boost in TTL is completely irrelevant, which brings me back to my original point.
I am not sure ow did they get it:
AM I wrong or we have linear dependance while armor mitigation is not linear at all.
And crit on the other hand is linear DPS increase.
Oh and what the number 4.6 or 7.10 exactly mean?
Quote:
(+) 10 Hit Rating: 4.60
(+) 10 Crit Rating: 7.10
(+) 10 Strength (20 AP): 5.90
(+) 10 Haste Rating: 4.70
(+) 10 Expertise Rating: 7.20
(+) 100 Ignore Armor: 8.00
(+) 10 Crit Rating: 7.10
(+) 10 Strength (20 AP): 5.90
(+) 10 Haste Rating: 4.70
(+) 10 Expertise Rating: 7.20
(+) 100 Ignore Armor: 8.00
AM I wrong or we have linear dependance while armor mitigation is not linear at all.
And crit on the other hand is linear DPS increase.
Oh and what the number 4.6 or 7.10 exactly mean?
The more I think about those "ignores xxx armor" items the more headake I have.
The traditional stats for a warrior have + hit + crit AP levels that are acceptable. Those stats work together with some talents like Deep Wounds, Flurry, Impale Enrage Blood Frenzy.
Resilience went into as some sort of anti crit and additional armor for crits/DoTs so although I still see it as a bit odd stat it coresponds with the same abilities.
"Ignore xxx armor" doesnt fit into traditional picture.
It surly works better if you stack it as armor is not linear. On the other hand stacking it will hit mainly crit rating so making some abilities that are fundamnetal for DPS not so fundamnetal. Flurry and Impale Deep wounds and Blood frenzy will suffer from lower crit greatly.
Will a raw DPS from less mitigation make it up? So many variables....
It seems that this new stat favors a lot of AP as main atat.
Will AP+hit+ignore AC outperform crit +AP +hit+talents? At what point?
I hope people who have enough time to go deep into math or those who have enough time to spend hours testing in game will give answers fast - time for decisions is up next week.
The traditional stats for a warrior have + hit + crit AP levels that are acceptable. Those stats work together with some talents like Deep Wounds, Flurry, Impale Enrage Blood Frenzy.
Resilience went into as some sort of anti crit and additional armor for crits/DoTs so although I still see it as a bit odd stat it coresponds with the same abilities.
"Ignore xxx armor" doesnt fit into traditional picture.
It surly works better if you stack it as armor is not linear. On the other hand stacking it will hit mainly crit rating so making some abilities that are fundamnetal for DPS not so fundamnetal. Flurry and Impale Deep wounds and Blood frenzy will suffer from lower crit greatly.
Will a raw DPS from less mitigation make it up? So many variables....
It seems that this new stat favors a lot of AP as main atat.
Will AP+hit+ignore AC outperform crit +AP +hit+talents? At what point?
I hope people who have enough time to go deep into math or those who have enough time to spend hours testing in game will give answers fast - time for decisions is up next week.
So... Without sacrificing for your flurry proc time crit rating (flurry owns). armor reduction is by far the easiest way to stack for a bigger increase to dps. Once you reach a point of crit, you don't need more. AP will scale better for DPS at a point.
And to hit really is overrated. I compare it to defense for tanks; once you have 490 defense, yes you can get more, it helps, but the efficiency of the stat decreases. Once you have 8.6% to hit, more hit will affect your white damage, and rage production. But once you have a cycle of 30 rage every 6 seconds (BT), 25 rage every 9 seconds (WW), 20 rage every 25 seconds (Rampage), and 10 rage every 1 minute 45 seconds (battleshout). You kinda do not require any more rage. Extra rage goes into HS, which IS an increase to DPS. But it is a POOR increase to DPS.
So, unlike rogues, hit rating is not a great way to increase dps after a point. You want enough hit rating to provide a steady flow of rage, but not more than you can use.
Crit provides much of the same results to hit does, but with more efficiency, and effectiveness to talents. And AP provides overall damage increases to DPS.
When balancing your stats, I would sacrifice to hit for armor reduction, maybe a little ap or crit. but to hit is the weakest link.
::EDIT::
Think about armor reduction like an AP multiplier. Just like Crit. It will affect your rage generation, it will affect how hard your crits hit for. It is the only stat that affects execute damage.
Edited, Nov 9th 2007 10:34am by devioususer
And to hit really is overrated. I compare it to defense for tanks; once you have 490 defense, yes you can get more, it helps, but the efficiency of the stat decreases. Once you have 8.6% to hit, more hit will affect your white damage, and rage production. But once you have a cycle of 30 rage every 6 seconds (BT), 25 rage every 9 seconds (WW), 20 rage every 25 seconds (Rampage), and 10 rage every 1 minute 45 seconds (battleshout). You kinda do not require any more rage. Extra rage goes into HS, which IS an increase to DPS. But it is a POOR increase to DPS.
So, unlike rogues, hit rating is not a great way to increase dps after a point. You want enough hit rating to provide a steady flow of rage, but not more than you can use.
Crit provides much of the same results to hit does, but with more efficiency, and effectiveness to talents. And AP provides overall damage increases to DPS.
When balancing your stats, I would sacrifice to hit for armor reduction, maybe a little ap or crit. but to hit is the weakest link.
::EDIT::
Think about armor reduction like an AP multiplier. Just like Crit. It will affect your rage generation, it will affect how hard your crits hit for. It is the only stat that affects execute damage.
Edited, Nov 9th 2007 10:34am by devioususer
Quote:
AM I wrong or we have linear dependance while armor mitigation is not linear at all.
And crit on the other hand is linear DPS increase.
Oh and what the number 4.6 or 7.10 exactly mean?
And crit on the other hand is linear DPS increase.
Oh and what the number 4.6 or 7.10 exactly mean?
The numbers are DPS increases. at maxdps.com click on warrior and then fury... The site is for PvE DPS, but the site is a little wrong with it's simulated DPS outputs. It claims my total dps is ~900, but I rarely get past 600. It's missing some computations to DPS. Like mob mitigation, and it looks like they don't do glancing and avoidance correctly.
Crit, when applied to the same AP and DPS weapons, is a linear boost, when all you are changing is Crit values. But it's a curve when you start changing AP and DPS around. Flurry makes a curve of dps boost from Crit.
So... Do you mean about armor;
Quote:
Am I wrong, or do we have a linear dependence on armor, while armor mitigation is not linear at all.
Because we don't have a linear dependence on armor. Your TTL is affected by linear increases, but that information is all based on PvE game mechanics, not PvP. But the amount of mitigation you gain from armor is not linear.
Edited, Nov 9th 2007 12:37pm by devioususer
Edited, Nov 9th 2007 12:37pm by devioususer
devious, actually for me it was damn near exact. The dps they have is in ideal situations, where you can sit behind a mob, always have bt and ww going every millisecond they are up. unfortunately there are almost no fights like that where you don't have to run out, etc. last night i was within 200 dps of the possible dps they said on the site on shade, which can be shrugged off on the AE run outs
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