So I'm writing this having just got off of the PTR and all I can say is DAMN! I knew I was going to be doing mostly pvp (battlegrounds) so I specced 5/32/24 and it was a lot of fun certainly more fun than full combat was in the BG's. The only problem I found with this was while I got 2 AR's and pretty much every cooldown reduction known to Rogues the damage isn't really quite there when I need it as compared to other builds. The talents just don't seem to click quite so well compared to when I compared deep subtlety.
On that note I have also tried Shadowstep Hemo going 17/3/41, now prior to 2.3 this would make no sense, but now that Shadowstep:
A. Does 20% more damage instead of 10%
B. Does not require stealth.
C. Has a 25 yard range.
It's actually pretty damn good. Now I do realize that many of you are going to say that lag makes shadowstep good in theory and bad in practice, but I've used it for other things other than it's damage utility. That blink comes in handy for sapping a mage or warrior 25 yards away and when you combine that with dirty tricks it's pretty hard not to sap it. Additionally, I've actually been able to blink up cliffs and end up behind enemies. Finally, Dirty Deeds has made burst damage possible again. Now with this I add this dislaimer: I don't think this is going to go so well in terms of the old Ambush+Backstab combo from the days of yore. But coming from combat it's pretty badass to get 5 combo points from doing cheap shot -> hemo -> hemo. I was employing the strategy of eviscerate and then using more hemos. Normally with that combo you can get them close to the 35% range very quickly and with that talent that's the strategy you want to employ in PVP at least IMO. The good, old-fashioned stunlock still did well it just seemed to take longer than if I had done eviscerate.
Another spec which I saw but can't do because of a lack of maces for Liminus is combat mace hemo. Now I've not got a chance to try this but from personal experience I can say it kicks ***, in particular mine. Not to say that I didn't ever beat them, but those mace procs are damn annoying and frequent! I think that those of you using maces in arena are just going to kick more *** once you go hemo and pick up dirty deeds as you'll easily be able to combat stun lock (as if you couldn't do that before). So far for PVP sub is looking very, very promising.
Edited, Nov 6th 2007 6:37pm by FelRogue
Edited, Nov 6th 2007 6:38pm by FelRogue
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I talked about hemo in a pvp perspective, but I think it's only fair that I also discuss it in terms of pve. I figured it'd be easier to make another reply rather than a wall of text. Most of this comes from number crunching but now that I've been able to test some of it, I'm able to say this isn't too unreasonable.
Hemo vs. Combat
Assume the following: 30% crit rate 1700 attack power, and season 2 MH and OH sword for both of the following builds:
Pure Combat
Combat Hemo
Rules:
Assume the only finishers used are Slice and Dice and Rupture. (This is mostly true for raid fights anyway)
Assume only 5 point finishers are used (ie finishers are free).
Assume Combat Potencey is maxed and procs throughout the fight at max energy and average rate.
Assume boss reaches 35% with 84 seconds left in the fight. And that the Combat Rogue Procs AR. Since both rogues have BF it's a wash and isn't accounted for same applies for white damage. As it's the same for both weapons and AP rate.
Since 5 seconds into the fight is when both rogues will have 5 CP's and Activate S and D and this is a small number assume S and D is always on.
Now the data:
1.5 swing weapon becomes 1.15 and a 2.6 becomes a 2.
The off hand will hit 208 times so floor(208*.2) = 41 * 15 = 615 additional energy. 240 seconds - 15 seconds AR is active = ceiling(225/2)*20 + floor(15/2)*40 = 2540 energy
Factor in combat potencey: 615 + 2540 = 3155 Energy for the whole fight with the combat rogue
240/2 *20 = 2400 Energy for the hemo rogue.
Average SS = .3*1722 + 749*.7 = 1041
Average Hemo = .3 * 1361 + .7*680 = 884
The Combat Rogue does floor(3155/40) = 78 SS
The Hemo Rogue does floor (2400/35) = 68 Hemo
78 * 1041 = 81214
68 * 884 = 60159
Now account for debuff:
Assume all of the charges are popped: (TESTED! This is possible! Your first hemos you won't get all 10 to go off as they happen back to back. I can break 6 by myself as long as I have S and D on. ALL other hemo debuffs will be broken for sure as long as you, the tank and 1 other physical DPS are hitting the target.
10*36*68 = 24480
24480 + 60159 = 84639
84639 - 81214 = 3425 More damage than SS. This damage falls below SS if you pop and average of 8 charges or less.
However, I've not taken into account for Dirty Deeds or Improved Rupture. But since we are so close to SS' damage as it is AND white damage offset's one another.
Conclusion:
So there you have it. Even with combat potencey accounted for, Hemo clearly is the winner here. If Dirty deeds is acounted for on just hemo and it's debuff alone, with out rupture's damage: (Warning! I'm going to handwave!) 35% of the hemo's (23) and the bleed debuff (238) added into the old data makes hemo do 99269 damage which is 18055 more than SS. If you accounted for the 30% additional damage of the ruptures and 20% additional that 35% of those ruptures get the gap widens further compared to the combat rogue's. However, this is not going to happen during the Netherspite or Curator fights, or any fights where rupture can't be done. Then the combat rogue's better eviscerate may close the gap, but likely not. I think this is pretty conclusive. Thoughts? Comments? Questions?
Hemo vs. Combat
Assume the following: 30% crit rate 1700 attack power, and season 2 MH and OH sword for both of the following builds:
Pure Combat
Combat Hemo
Rules:
Assume the only finishers used are Slice and Dice and Rupture. (This is mostly true for raid fights anyway)
Assume only 5 point finishers are used (ie finishers are free).
Assume Combat Potencey is maxed and procs throughout the fight at max energy and average rate.
Assume boss reaches 35% with 84 seconds left in the fight. And that the Combat Rogue Procs AR. Since both rogues have BF it's a wash and isn't accounted for same applies for white damage. As it's the same for both weapons and AP rate.
Since 5 seconds into the fight is when both rogues will have 5 CP's and Activate S and D and this is a small number assume S and D is always on.
Now the data:
1.5 swing weapon becomes 1.15 and a 2.6 becomes a 2.
The off hand will hit 208 times so floor(208*.2) = 41 * 15 = 615 additional energy. 240 seconds - 15 seconds AR is active = ceiling(225/2)*20 + floor(15/2)*40 = 2540 energy
Factor in combat potencey: 615 + 2540 = 3155 Energy for the whole fight with the combat rogue
240/2 *20 = 2400 Energy for the hemo rogue.
Average SS = .3*1722 + 749*.7 = 1041
Average Hemo = .3 * 1361 + .7*680 = 884
The Combat Rogue does floor(3155/40) = 78 SS
The Hemo Rogue does floor (2400/35) = 68 Hemo
78 * 1041 = 81214
68 * 884 = 60159
Now account for debuff:
Assume all of the charges are popped: (TESTED! This is possible! Your first hemos you won't get all 10 to go off as they happen back to back. I can break 6 by myself as long as I have S and D on. ALL other hemo debuffs will be broken for sure as long as you, the tank and 1 other physical DPS are hitting the target.
10*36*68 = 24480
24480 + 60159 = 84639
84639 - 81214 = 3425 More damage than SS. This damage falls below SS if you pop and average of 8 charges or less.
However, I've not taken into account for Dirty Deeds or Improved Rupture. But since we are so close to SS' damage as it is AND white damage offset's one another.
Conclusion:
So there you have it. Even with combat potencey accounted for, Hemo clearly is the winner here. If Dirty deeds is acounted for on just hemo and it's debuff alone, with out rupture's damage: (Warning! I'm going to handwave!) 35% of the hemo's (23) and the bleed debuff (238) added into the old data makes hemo do 99269 damage which is 18055 more than SS. If you accounted for the 30% additional damage of the ruptures and 20% additional that 35% of those ruptures get the gap widens further compared to the combat rogue's. However, this is not going to happen during the Netherspite or Curator fights, or any fights where rupture can't be done. Then the combat rogue's better eviscerate may close the gap, but likely not. I think this is pretty conclusive. Thoughts? Comments? Questions?
There is like, 5 topics with the exact same math and discussion you are looking for.
MYteddy wrote:
There is like, 5 topics with the exact same math and discussion you are looking for.
Word.
Quote:
There is like, 5 topics with the exact same math and discussion you are looking for.
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