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Priest Not Needed!?!?!Follow

#1 Nov 03 2007 at 10:46 AM Rating: Decent
Hello!

I rolled me a priest a while ago, and now its level 42 (shadow). Im undead on Kara server. Since i rolled it, ive been told numerous times that it was a bad idea, and that priests are not needed anymore. People tell me that the "Fun" stuff like Mind Control cannot be used to make people jump off mountains, boats, etc and that our heals are now being topped by druids and paladins. Does this mean that priests are not the first choice for healers anymore (raids) and we get it basically for our buffs? Do you think i should roll me another class instead, or stay as shadow priest to give mana to the healers and the occasional Vamp. Embrace heal?

I also heard that Arena teams prefer paladin healers over priests since they have plate armor, and dont take shadow priests becuse mages will do more damage. im still level 42, so i dont know what goes on in arena teams.

To anyone who played a level 70 priest, hows your WoW life going? can you tell me how good you do in PvP (whatever spec you are).

Thanks!
#2 Nov 03 2007 at 1:18 PM Rating: Excellent
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1,073 posts
/scoff at the Mind Control comment. That's something people are trying to propagate because they hate it when it happens. It's harder to do than it once was, because everyone's trinket allows them to escape now, but it's not nothing.

Priests do not hold the exalted position they once did. Other class' healing abilities have gained more prominence in raiding environments. All things being equal, every healing class can carry its weight in a raid healing environment. Thus, raid slots are allotted (again, all other things being equal) based on what additional utility they bring. Currently, the other classes top priests in that department. That is, an additional priest adds no additional utility, whereas another paladin brings another raid-wide blessing, another druid means another battle rez, and another shaman brings another set of totems. Thus, although one or two healing priests are guaranteed raid spots, additional priests are hard to justify when other classes are available.

All of that said, there are never enough healers. People take what they can get. It's not been a problem for me.

Shadowpriests are more in demand for raiding, due to the fact that they serve a vital mana-battery role in addition to doing hefty damage.

In arenas, priests have significant problems, but so do paladins. The problem with priests is that, at low levels, they are incredibly vulnerable in comparison to paladins. A priest with low stamina and resilience is so much dead meat. It takes quite a bit of gear to get priests' survivability up. Once it does, the advantage of priests becomes clear: the ability to grant considerable survivability using instant cast spells alone. Paladins can't match it, which is a problem.

Shadow priests, in contrast, have struggled in arenas of late. The reasons are two-fold. First, for a class that relies heavily on DoTs, priests have nothing like Unstable Affliction (or the sheer crowd control) that warlocks have to allow their DoTs to tick. Additionally, the anchor of the shadowpriest ******** Mind Flay, roots the shadowpriest, which is quite a liability.

(Don't take the mage comparison that seriously. Although three-minute-mages have a certain notoriety, the most valuable things a mage brings to the arena table are counterspell and polymorph.)

HAVING SAID ALL OF THAT, skill > all. Not all things are equal. If you're a good priest, you will be treated and appreciated as such.
#4 Nov 03 2007 at 4:27 PM Rating: Decent
Shadow priest are greatly need in raids, as they help warlocks and mages for mana regeneration.

As for holy priest the only reason I see why someone should take them is for the fortitude buff, other than that there are classes that have the same healing capability. But the thing that makes the other classes better than priest is that there survivability is much better.

So I dont know what to tell you, if you want to be a healer, choose a shaman or a paladin.
#5 Nov 03 2007 at 4:43 PM Rating: Decent
Ok, its all in the name dude. PRIEST!!! the name is holy itself. no class should be allowed to heal better than it. thats my opinion on that. and lets put it this way. pally healers: no hots. Druid healers: got what, one heal? woopty doo. shammy healers: you will never be a main tank healer. deal with it. im a priest for my main, and with flash heal, greater heal, renew, prayer of mending, circle of healing, and prayer of healing, i personally think that priests are the best healers. as for shadow, no other class has a mana regen move similar to priests. (more dps = more mana) my guild loves Spriests cuz they are mana batteries. and me as a healer, i like em even more becuase i can focus on just a few targets to heal and let the vampiric embrace heal the people who just are hurt a little. shackling is always good to have too. especially for moroes in kara. if whoever reads this thinks that priests are not needed, lets see what you have to say,
#6 Nov 03 2007 at 5:20 PM Rating: Default
Paladin, druid, shaman, or whatever healer you chose all have the same healing capability. But the thing that is bad about priest is that they have low survivability. And with all the aoe that happens in end game, survivability is the key.

Just like with mages and warlocks, they both dps, but if you had to chose between them, you would chose a warlock for survivability.
#7 Nov 03 2007 at 6:17 PM Rating: Excellent
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218 posts
Sounds like someone has been reading the "QQ" fest on the forums a little too much.

I'll make this plain and simple for the op. If you're a great healer, you will get a raid spot. If you're a /good/ healer, then good luck to you. A great healer will ALWAYS be more desirable than a mediocre healer no matter what class.

Any smart raid leader will know that different healers are better for different situations. While it is true that other classes bring more utility, priests are still very desirable for having raw healing power aswell as being a "all around" healer that other classes simply can't compete with. Does this mean that priests are the best? No of course not, there is no "best," no matter what anyone says.

As for survivability, Yes that is generally our weakest area, but then again it should be. We shouldn't have more survivability than a healer in plate/mail/leather. That's not to say we're sitting ducks, a well played disc priests can withstand quite a bit of punishment in arenas/bg's.

Sorry for the ramble but I do dislike when people claim that priests are /useless/ when it comes to healing.

Edited, Nov 3rd 2007 10:24pm by electricwizard
#8 Nov 03 2007 at 6:48 PM Rating: Default
Sorry for saying that priest are useless in raids, thats not exactly what I meant. Let me put it this way, if there was a priest and paladin, both with the same healing capability and the boss fight didn't dictate which would be the better healer, I would have to say chose the paladin.

Im not trying to flame the priest class or anything, but in end games that little extra health or armor can make a big difference between living or dieing.

For example I am a mage and I know I am supposed to be squishie. We were on stage 3 of the vashj fight, I had full health and mana. I don't know exactly how this happens but the tank got rooted and vashj shot me with her bow, and I got one shotted. Now if it was another dps class, they probably would not have been one shotted. And we ended up killing vashj with 5 people left. That little extra health can make a huge difference in between downing that one boss or wiping.
#9 Nov 03 2007 at 8:16 PM Rating: Decent
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1,222 posts
Priest are always gonna be dedsired, but they are not the sole owners of the healing population. When you spec Shadow, people want Holy, and vice-versa.
#10 Nov 04 2007 at 3:27 AM Rating: Good
zxcy wrote:
whatever healer you chose all have the same healing capability. But the thing that is bad about priest is that they have low survivability. And with all the aoe that happens in end game, survivability is the key.


No, they don't all have the same healing capability. In kara last night there was a lot of AOE damage going on. Thankfully we had a holy priest in each of the two groups.

All buffed up we were both over +1900 healing and with our ability to throw renews on multiple targets and Prayer of Healing for each of our groups we got through a few rough pulls. It was fun to watch both groups and see when the other priest was throwing his prayer. I knew a group heal was coming up and his group was going to be fine.

We have agro reduction capabilities (fade) and who else can open with a heal that gives the tank more agro (prayer of mending). Do groups like fighting Moroes with no shackles?

I agree that survivability is key. Survivability for everyone. I've been called into fights where group healing wasn't handled well enough by a Paladin, where shackles were needed, or where they just needed the best healing they could get. I've never been turned down for a raid spot, I can't get a night off from it.

Edited, Nov 4th 2007 6:34am by dadanox
#11 Nov 04 2007 at 4:27 AM Rating: Excellent
For Arena you will see that priests are under the Top 3 classes in the high rated teams.

For raids and groups. Well, i got several whispers evertime i stand in shatt to heal this or heal that.

After i hit 70 i also had a very easy time to find a raiding guild, cause most of them always need healers.

When it comes to compare classes, there is no class "needed"´imo. Paladins may make better MT tanks cause of their fast healing. Shamans may make better group healers and priests can do all if needed.

So my tip is: Dont let you drag too much into that "Class is better then Class" thing, after all it depends on the tactic, group performance and willingness when it comes to raids.
#12 Nov 04 2007 at 9:49 AM Rating: Excellent
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1,260 posts
Raid healing benifits from a well balanced mix of healers because the style of healing varies alot from class to class and using them together is far more effective to relying on a particular class to do all the healing.

Paladins are stabilizers, they give a good amount of constant healing with great efficency with flash of light. This constant healing stabilizes the tank after taking damage so that there isn't huge fluxuations in the tanks health from normal hits.

Druids are HoT specialists, they keep a high level of constant healing on up to 2 tanks and have a couple global cooldowns they can spare to throw rejuvs on the raid. This is important in any fight with siliences or knockbacks that disrupt casting, since HoTs are the only healing the tank will receive for a short time.

Priests are burst healers, they make use of the 6 second rule by casting large heals continually on the tank, then canceling them just before they complete if the tank doesn't require the heal. Priests are best at this because their high spirit and short cast time on their large heals. Burst healing is a critical component to a raid's healing capabilities since it represents how quickly the raid can get a tank from dangerously low health to full. All classes can burst heal to some extent, but a holy priest is the most effective at it and as a dedicated burst healer they will also have those heals on their target far faster then anyone else.

Paladins and shammys don't make much use of spirit and rely mostly on mp5 for mana regen so they can't benifit much from the 6 second rule. Tree druids are completely cut off from their big heal in tree form, but dreamstate druids will rely more on burst healing like a priest. However, a druid's big heal is slower then priest's and that limits a druid's potential max hps to below a holy priest.

I've never been a raid healer, but as a former raid tank I recognise and appritiate the subtle differences between the styles of healing between the classes and how they work together in a raid environment. Having a healing team that is heavy on one class causes weaknesses because of the lack of other classes. For example a raid with only pally healers would cause the tank to have no healing during silences and when the tank takes a heavy level of burst damage they will remain at dangerously low health for longer. Also raid healing would suffer significantly and fights with significant aoe damage would cause alot of issues.

A balanced healing team is far more adaptable to a variety of damage, ensuring that healing gets to where it's needed, when it's needed, with the greatest efficency.
#13 Nov 05 2007 at 2:07 AM Rating: Excellent
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194 posts
For arena you're missing the fact that we're offensive healers.

We eat other healers for breakfast.

Mana Burn? Whoops!

Mass Dispel? Byebye pally.

I'm working on my healing gear at the moment, I arena'd for a long time shadow.

Discipline and holy priests with enough resilience become a nightmare.
#14 Nov 06 2007 at 2:36 PM Rating: Default
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476 posts
Quote:
...there are never enough healers...

QFT

as for arena, priests are usually kill target #1 because of suvivability and WE ARE A TOTAL PAIN IF LEFT UNCHECKED!!! hahahaha

if you want to be the best healer with the most survivability, roll paladin, bind all keys to flash of light, and fall asleep on your keyboard.
#15 Nov 06 2007 at 3:52 PM Rating: Excellent
Shamans have a group heal?
Hey, so do we!

Paladins have powerful single heals?
Hey, so do we!

Druids have a hot HoT?
Hey, so do we!

We may not be able to do each of those heals as good as the other classes, but the fact that we can do all 3 and still do them well, that makes us very viable healers.

And how many healers can keep on healing even after they die?
I know I have saved wipes in my 5 mans due to getting 3 PoH's out after I die.
#16 Nov 09 2007 at 11:26 AM Rating: Good
Yes priests have good single target heals, but they're not near as efficient as paladins. Yes priests have HoTs, but you can't tell me that they come anywhere near to the abilities of a druid. Yes priests can heal multiple people with the same cast, but again, chain heal is much more efficient.

Now it used to be that raids had priests as the main healers, and a few scattered other healers around. However with the reduction of raiding size to 25, you have raid leaders trying to 'skim the fat' if you will. Off-spec classes suddenly find themselves in a situation where if they don't spec the certain way they find it hard, if not impossible to get invites to the really good guilds. (Don't give me the 'my guild did it' speech, that kind of thinking had a Moonkin tanking Gruul)

Unfortunately when it comes down to it it IS better to have certain classes do certain healing assignments. Need a reliable main tank healer that won't go OOM? Paladins. Need everyone in the raid topped off? Druids. Need melee to be kept healed? Shamans. Where does that leave the priest? The misc jobs that are left over.

I've been basically tasked with healing assignments for my guild. That is, when we have a boss fight I'm the one who determines who heals what. Maybe its a bi-product of really good priests being few and far between, but I'm always able to assign every other type of healer quite easily and I always have the hardest time pinning a priest to a job. I could completely run a raid without needing a priest to heal, and be perfectly fine.

Doom and gloom aside, Blizzard does understand your predicament. Look at the changes coming in the next patch! Blizzard is trying to improve priest healing, make it more desirable for raid leaders. Will things change? Possibly. For now though, I have no idea where priest fit into the scheme of things.
#17 Nov 10 2007 at 10:13 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Yes priests can heal multiple people with the same cast, but again, chain heal is much more efficient.

This is the one thing that stood out to me. This is NOT TRUE if your melee are in one or two groups. CoH is *incredibly* powerful when a few groups (or the whole raid, see every pull up to Solarian) is taking damage. Chain Heal just can't compared, it's more of a "top off what CoH missed," or cross-group healing if you've got one guy in a different group.

Also, keep in mind druids are often on the main tank and pallies on the raid. Their super-efficient heals instantly get people up in case of raid damage, much more cheaply than a HoT, while a couple stacks of Lifebloom on the tank is incredible. In addition, you still need a big healer on tanks to take care of the spikes that the pallies/druids will be missing, and that's where a priest's Gheal and ooc spirit regen is incredibly powerful.
#18 Nov 12 2007 at 2:31 PM Rating: Decent
Granted CoH is pretty good, though it heals for less per target than chain heal does. Its certainly not bad, though. As a matter of a fact, I'll concede on this point that as far as melee priests could be just as good as any other class.

lsfreak wrote:
Also, keep in mind druids are often on the main tank and pallies on the raid. Their super-efficient heals instantly get people up in case of raid damage, much more cheaply than a HoT, while a couple stacks of Lifebloom on the tank is incredible. In addition, you still need a big healer on tanks to take care of the spikes that the pallies/druids will be missing, and that's where a priest's Gheal and ooc spirit regen is incredibly powerful.


What are you smoking here? I've heard of raiders trying to get paladins to raid heal and have druids single target, but never from someone directly. Paladins are the single best one-target healers in the game. HoTs are way too unreliable for your main tank, are you gonna just cross your fingers and hope it ticks at the right time? The main heal for a paladin is flash of light, and it really doesn't do enough to really top off the entire raid, while a druid can throw on a couple hots and the person will be back up to full in no time, and they can do this to several people a lot faster than a paladin could.
#19 Nov 12 2007 at 3:10 PM Rating: Good
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194 posts
Prayer of mending and Circle of Healing for melee.
#20 Nov 12 2007 at 6:03 PM Rating: Decent
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194 posts
Sorry for double post, but it's also important to point at that in 2.3 discipline priests will offer the best wipe protection possible with pain suppression on the MT.
#21 Nov 12 2007 at 9:21 PM Rating: Good
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I don't believe the new Pain Suppression is meant for the MT. It reduces threat, albeit by a small percentage, but because of such, it looks to me like it's to save the guy who just pulled aggro from the MT.

Dilbrt, paladins definitely are better Main Tank healers than druids, but it's not crazy for a druid to be the MT's main healer. Lifebloom stacked is incredibly potent and can keep being refreshed every 7 seconds, with Healing Touches inbetween for massive damage or simply Lifebloom's every-second-ticks, and when something goes wrong and you need the quick heal, Nature's Swiftness + Healing Touch is there for you, or Swiftmend can be used to consume another HoT quickly put up, or if it's at the appropriate moment, you can let the Lifebloom time out and have its major heal go off.

Druid as main-healer is not crazy. But I have hardly heard of pallies being the raid healer.
#22 Nov 13 2007 at 6:46 AM Rating: Decent
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1,574 posts
The new PS might also work well on a tank just before a pull. It drops threat, it doesn't gimp threat generation.
#23 Nov 13 2007 at 9:34 AM Rating: Decent
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2,029 posts
It could be used like that, but I think it'd be more useful to save it for when a fury warrior or similar needs a threat drop a few minutes in. Give him a little more of a threat ceiling. Could also be really useful in, say, Solarian on the adds so that your best AoE doesn't get mowed over.
Unfortunately, Disc is still FAR too worthless right now to warrant bringing one over a holy priest or any other healer.

EDIT: And to Diblert, pallies are NOT main healers, or at least not unless you have 2-3 of them all spamming FoL. If you've only got one or two pallies, they're there to take the edge off a really hard hit until the heavy healers land a big heal. Same idea with druid DoT's, they take the edge of the really hard blows until someone comes in with a big heal. And unlike pallies, those druids on the main tank DO have an efficient main-target heal (regrowth), and can easily drop a HoT on someone else if needed. And while not as efficiently as Chain heal for group healing, FoL is also incredible for raid healing.

Edited, Nov 13th 2007 11:38am by lsfreak
#24 Nov 13 2007 at 12:30 PM Rating: Decent
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194 posts
I'm thinking about using pain suppression for fights like Prince where your healing group sometimes has to move for a bad infernal drop, dropping PS on the MT gives your healing group time to get repositioned without worrying nearly as much about the tank dropping quickly.
#25 Nov 13 2007 at 12:48 PM Rating: Decent
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Be very, very careful about that. That 5% drop in aggro can really hurt when your tank is running several hundreds of thousands of threat. Shouldn't be as much of a problem in 10-mans, but it's still an issue. Not worth giving him 40% less damage taken when he gets enfeebled cuz the shadow priest or fury warrior was riding him for threat.
#26 Nov 13 2007 at 5:38 PM Rating: Default
Quote:
shammy healers: you will never be a main tank healer.


I'm sorry... what?

I'm not even restoration and 2/3 of the time i do Hellfire, Dire Maul, and Underbog I main-healed with 80% of my groups succeeding in completing the instance IMO it's not how powerful you spells are, or even what spec you are. If you have the skill, gear, and a good tank who knows to keep the aggro off you, you can heal just as good as any class/spec.

o and BTW, ever heard of arena? (RESTO = arena healz)
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