So im lvl70 holy paladin atm (got to 70 about 3days ago) and ive asked around about retri paladins and everywhere i go i hear "Paladins cant DPS!" etc. (pretty sure most ppl have heard it sometimes xP). Well recently i asked my guild leader (guild is farming kara atm, cleared the whole raid and have started gruul a little bit) and explained that i might respecc to retri again when patch 2.3 comes and what i could possibly do for the raid at that point (included +3% critt for group, +2% damage from aura, blessings, off-tanking/off-healing etc.) and he seems pretty interested about trying it.
I have pretty good understanding for the the game although i've only played for ~5 months or so, and i know how to play my class (often getting compliments after instances for beeing a good healer), so i would like to ask a bit about the Retribution tree;
1.Is it OK to use mail gear for pallies? I mean like there's more +attack power, mana/5sec, +critt on those shammy/hunter gear that drops in instance and those from q (i never need on anything if a hunter/shammy wants it ofc.), and the defence difference is not that big. I will however upgrade to plate asap when i find anything better.
2.Since i am Blood elf i get SoB/JoB, what will do best damage over time: SoB or SoC?
3.What kind of weapon speed is prefered for the above seals? Most 2-handers i've seen lies between 3.3-3.9.
4.Is the Doomplate Battlegear something to aim for? I've noticed that only the chest drops from normal instances and the rest from heroics (doh! >_<).
and 5.(Kinda same question as above but more specific to 1 item) What is best; Doomplate Warhealm or The Horsemans Helm? If you look at base stats Horsemans Helm is kinda better, why i'm asking is that Doomplate have set bonuses & meta socket so kinda unsure ^^;
Thanks for any replies, I appreciate it ^^
- Forums
- World of Warcraft
- Class Discussion
- Retri in raids and heroic?
Retri in raids and heroic?Follow
Ret doesn't have a dps issue, they have a threat issue. This will be fixed in the next patch which is hopefully coming out either this Tuesday or next.
The problem with Ret is that it is a little more gear dependant than most other builds, also more stats to focus on which always sucks. You can use mail, leather to gear up if you want. I have heard seal of blood is working well for Ret dps on horde side, though a ret pallies bread and butter is a slow 3.6 swing weapon and Socomm.
That being said Ret truly does have a stigma against it and even the changes in 2.3 won't change that fact. Also the fact that finding a raid slot as DPS is 10x harder than trying to find a raid slot as Holy or Prot. We tried out a Ret pally in full t4/t5 gear awhile ago and even when factoring in 3% crit for raid and other factors it really wasn't a big enough dps gain to justify the dps lost compared to a good Rogue or Mage.
Let me also say that off tanking and off healing in heroics and beyond is not going to happen as ret. Not at all. Even if you did have a full plate dps set I wouldn't want you off tanking, you'd just waste the healers mana.
Edited, Nov 3rd 2007 10:52am by bodhisattva
The problem with Ret is that it is a little more gear dependant than most other builds, also more stats to focus on which always sucks. You can use mail, leather to gear up if you want. I have heard seal of blood is working well for Ret dps on horde side, though a ret pallies bread and butter is a slow 3.6 swing weapon and Socomm.
That being said Ret truly does have a stigma against it and even the changes in 2.3 won't change that fact. Also the fact that finding a raid slot as DPS is 10x harder than trying to find a raid slot as Holy or Prot. We tried out a Ret pally in full t4/t5 gear awhile ago and even when factoring in 3% crit for raid and other factors it really wasn't a big enough dps gain to justify the dps lost compared to a good Rogue or Mage.
Let me also say that off tanking and off healing in heroics and beyond is not going to happen as ret. Not at all. Even if you did have a full plate dps set I wouldn't want you off tanking, you'd just waste the healers mana.
Edited, Nov 3rd 2007 10:52am by bodhisattva
Bode - 100 Holy Paladin - Lightbringer
Oh ok. Yea i kinda knew that DPS wont be that high though, but didnt know they didnt have off tanks and such ^^;
I'll just wait and see 'til 2.3, otherwise ill just use Retri for PvP/Farming :)
Edited, Nov 3rd 2007 9:51pm by Prroce
I'll just wait and see 'til 2.3, otherwise ill just use Retri for PvP/Farming :)
Edited, Nov 3rd 2007 9:51pm by Prroce
As far as has been addressed in previous posts, it seems that retribution in the pve standpoint is still as it had been. something to help you farm or to grind/solo quest.
as far as the raid is concerned. you still have a no additional aggro migration except by using your 10 min cooldowns. This makes it less than ideal in raid and heroic situations when a bad call on your part may change the aggro scaling for the tank and healer.
When you suddenly crit 3 in a row and exceed threat for x mob pulling it on you then healer popping a few extra heals on ou on top of tank, then tank not keeping up with extra healing. ect ect. most other classes have soemthing to reduce that every x second or at most every min. (except shamans)
howver good luck with your 2.3 run on the paladin and good hunting.
Final item is a good healer or tank does not automatically assume you are a good dpser or vice versa. A good player will understand all three roles and the sub role of cover the *** of everyone else when the tank or healer fails which is the perview or druids and paladins. ie spot healer/tanker.
I hope you have taken the time to roll around for a while in the other classes and played around with the the different specs of the other classes. (though with 5 months exp you probally have)
as far as the raid is concerned. you still have a no additional aggro migration except by using your 10 min cooldowns. This makes it less than ideal in raid and heroic situations when a bad call on your part may change the aggro scaling for the tank and healer.
When you suddenly crit 3 in a row and exceed threat for x mob pulling it on you then healer popping a few extra heals on ou on top of tank, then tank not keeping up with extra healing. ect ect. most other classes have soemthing to reduce that every x second or at most every min. (except shamans)
howver good luck with your 2.3 run on the paladin and good hunting.
Final item is a good healer or tank does not automatically assume you are a good dpser or vice versa. A good player will understand all three roles and the sub role of cover the *** of everyone else when the tank or healer fails which is the perview or druids and paladins. ie spot healer/tanker.
I hope you have taken the time to roll around for a while in the other classes and played around with the the different specs of the other classes. (though with 5 months exp you probally have)
thx for those advice to ^^
And yea i have a couple of chars around 30-40 (rogue, mage & hunter) so have played a lot of speccs on them etc. :)
Been prot. on palla for 10-20 (tried a bit on 63 also and i could tank decently, just dont like it as much as healing/DPS xP), retri 20-45 then changed to holy but i've always had a tank setup of items and tanked BRD and such around 52-55 :P and i know ofc. that Good Healer = Good DPSer/Tank is not true ^^;
Edited, Nov 3rd 2007 7:25pm by Prroce
And yea i have a couple of chars around 30-40 (rogue, mage & hunter) so have played a lot of speccs on them etc. :)
Been prot. on palla for 10-20 (tried a bit on 63 also and i could tank decently, just dont like it as much as healing/DPS xP), retri 20-45 then changed to holy but i've always had a tank setup of items and tanked BRD and such around 52-55 :P and i know ofc. that Good Healer = Good DPSer/Tank is not true ^^;
Edited, Nov 3rd 2007 7:25pm by Prroce
i concur with Bodh's post except:
OT and OH is not the same as dps/OT and dps/OH. to OT you'd gear to OT for that moment, same goes for OH. this is no different than a fury warrior swapping out for his tank set. obviously OT and OH have their limits, which do not include Heroics or Kara.
this goes for almost every class. if you are not quick to dump aggro, you're dead. true pallies dont have an on the fly aggro reducer, but that is where threat management becomes part of the playstyle as it is with warriors, shammies, druids?, and was with mages. the 30% spec'd reduction should be more than enough for the intended purpose of Ret.
Quote:
Let me also say that off tanking and off healing in heroics and beyond is not going to happen as ret. Not at all. Even if you did have a full plate dps set I wouldn't want you off tanking, you'd just waste the healers mana.
OT and OH is not the same as dps/OT and dps/OH. to OT you'd gear to OT for that moment, same goes for OH. this is no different than a fury warrior swapping out for his tank set. obviously OT and OH have their limits, which do not include Heroics or Kara.
Quote:
you still have a no additional aggro migration except by using your 10 min cooldowns. This makes it less than ideal in raid and heroic situations when a bad call on your part may change the aggro scaling for the tank and healer.
this goes for almost every class. if you are not quick to dump aggro, you're dead. true pallies dont have an on the fly aggro reducer, but that is where threat management becomes part of the playstyle as it is with warriors, shammies, druids?, and was with mages. the 30% spec'd reduction should be more than enough for the intended purpose of Ret.
ahh shouldnt bubble dump it right back on the tank if he's second on list after you?? then just tossa heal on your self. or would it just make mob go all crazy like?
Edited, Nov 4th 2007 2:32am by punkspider
Edited, Nov 4th 2007 2:32am by punkspider
punkspider wrote:
ahh shouldnt bubble dump it right back on the tank if he's second on list after you?? then just tossa heal on your self. or would it just make mob go all crazy like?
Edited, Nov 4th 2007 2:32am by punkspider
Edited, Nov 4th 2007 2:32am by punkspider
It depends. A good mage, for instance, may be above the tank in threat by 15-20% or so(needs to go 30% over to pull aggro). You pull aggro and bubble, and you just got another raid member killed.
same could be said for ice block and feign death. a mob running rampant is a mob not being aggro'd by the tank. the save for pallies is that when they bubble off, the mob is still within melee range of the MT...so no harm, no foul.
a good pally will watch the threat and make adjustments accordingly. at 100% tank threat, why not judge wisdom(or similar)? it'll give everyone mana plus ease your aggro a bit.
however, the solution to all this is simple...have a Prot pally tank and all will be well :D
a good pally will watch the threat and make adjustments accordingly. at 100% tank threat, why not judge wisdom(or similar)? it'll give everyone mana plus ease your aggro a bit.
however, the solution to all this is simple...have a Prot pally tank and all will be well :D
With the upcoming 30% threat reduction in the Ret tree plus BoSalv threat will no longer be an issue, unless you are an absolutely horrible paladin who has no idea where his threat is and gets 2-3 crit strikes in a row when he should have been backing off.
Off tanking in heroics even with a tanking set is kind of pointless. You should only ever need an off tank if things hit the fan, and last I checked you can't change gear mid fight. There are no pulls where an off tank is needed, none at all. Worse you now have a 30% threat reduction automatically built into your tree, so good luck tanking!
Of healing is doable if you have a healing set on, still tiny mana inefficient heals but its no worse than a Feral druid putting on a resto set. The problem is that you should never need a off healer for a heroic, never ever. Also burning down a mob fast is often more important that off heals so pulling dps away to off heal actually hinders the fight more than it helps.
Off tanking in heroics even with a tanking set is kind of pointless. You should only ever need an off tank if things hit the fan, and last I checked you can't change gear mid fight. There are no pulls where an off tank is needed, none at all. Worse you now have a 30% threat reduction automatically built into your tree, so good luck tanking!
Of healing is doable if you have a healing set on, still tiny mana inefficient heals but its no worse than a Feral druid putting on a resto set. The problem is that you should never need a off healer for a heroic, never ever. Also burning down a mob fast is often more important that off heals so pulling dps away to off heal actually hinders the fight more than it helps.
Bode - 100 Holy Paladin - Lightbringer
tommyguns wrote:
however, the solution to all this is simple...have a Prot pally tank and all will be well :D
so true, so true...
Quote:
Worse you now have a 30% threat reduction automatically built into your tree, so good luck tanking!
While I agree with your post, I just wanted to point out that I heard that the tooltip for the talent stated that the threat reduction would go away when RF was up.
I would rather have a ret pally off tank in a heroic than try to seduce something. CC is for chumps.
14 posts
It is indeed Ok to use mail, so long as you can understand the competition that would come along with getting mail DPS gear.
As for Seal of Blood and Seal of Command, Seal of Blood is better. Here's the math and testing to prove it, found on the WoW forums:
And as for gear, I've found a guide for it, also on the WoW forums:
http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=104544938&sid=1
As for Seal of Blood and Seal of Command, Seal of Blood is better. Here's the math and testing to prove it, found on the WoW forums:
Quote:
... 22) Seal of Blood vs. Seal of Command
(because I'm out of room everywhere else!)
800-1000 damage, speed 3.6, crit chance 30%
350 bonus spell damage
... Seal of Command damage range: 560-700. Avg: 630
... Seal of Blood damage range: 280-350. Avg: 315
... Judgement of Command range: (228 to 252) + (0.43(350)) = 379-403 Holy damage. Avg: 391
... Judgement of Blood range: (331 to 362) + (0.43(350)) = 482-513 Holy damage. Avg: 497
White damage over 5 minutes: (Avg)*(total seconds / weapon speed) = (900)*(300 / 3.6) = 75,000
... Critical white damage: (total damage)*(critical chance / 100) = (75k)*(0.3) = 22,500
... ... Total white damage: 22,500 + 75,000 = 97,500
Seal of Command damage: (Avg)*(ppm) = (630)*(7*5) = 22050
... Critical SoC damage: (22050)*(0.3) = 6615
... ... Total SoC damage: 6615 + 22050 = 28665
Seal of Blood damage: (Avg)*(total seconds / weapon speed) = (315)*(300 / 3.6) = 26250
... Critical SoB damage: (26250)*(0.3) = 7875
... ... Total SoB damage: 11,663 + 24500 = 34125
Judgement of Command damage: (Avg)*(300 / 8) = (391)*(37.5) = 14,623
... Critical JoC damage: (14,623)*(0.3) = 4,399
... ... Total JoC damage: 4,399 + 14,623 = 19,023
Judgement of Blood damage: (497)*(37.5) = 18,638
... Critical JoB damage: (18,638)*(0.3) = 5,591
... ... Total JoB damage: 5,591 + 18,638 = 24,229
Lets add em up:
Total SoC + JoC damage = 28,665+ 19,023 = 47,688
Total SoB + JoB damage = 34,125 + 24,229 = 58,345
Seal of Blood is the clear winner.
47688 / 58345 = ~0.82
From the total damage done, we can conclude that, on average, Seal of Command does about 82% of what Seal of Blood does.
(because I'm out of room everywhere else!)
800-1000 damage, speed 3.6, crit chance 30%
350 bonus spell damage
... Seal of Command damage range: 560-700. Avg: 630
... Seal of Blood damage range: 280-350. Avg: 315
... Judgement of Command range: (228 to 252) + (0.43(350)) = 379-403 Holy damage. Avg: 391
... Judgement of Blood range: (331 to 362) + (0.43(350)) = 482-513 Holy damage. Avg: 497
White damage over 5 minutes: (Avg)*(total seconds / weapon speed) = (900)*(300 / 3.6) = 75,000
... Critical white damage: (total damage)*(critical chance / 100) = (75k)*(0.3) = 22,500
... ... Total white damage: 22,500 + 75,000 = 97,500
Seal of Command damage: (Avg)*(ppm) = (630)*(7*5) = 22050
... Critical SoC damage: (22050)*(0.3) = 6615
... ... Total SoC damage: 6615 + 22050 = 28665
Seal of Blood damage: (Avg)*(total seconds / weapon speed) = (315)*(300 / 3.6) = 26250
... Critical SoB damage: (26250)*(0.3) = 7875
... ... Total SoB damage: 11,663 + 24500 = 34125
Judgement of Command damage: (Avg)*(300 / 8) = (391)*(37.5) = 14,623
... Critical JoC damage: (14,623)*(0.3) = 4,399
... ... Total JoC damage: 4,399 + 14,623 = 19,023
Judgement of Blood damage: (497)*(37.5) = 18,638
... Critical JoB damage: (18,638)*(0.3) = 5,591
... ... Total JoB damage: 5,591 + 18,638 = 24,229
Lets add em up:
Total SoC + JoC damage = 28,665+ 19,023 = 47,688
Total SoB + JoB damage = 34,125 + 24,229 = 58,345
Seal of Blood is the clear winner.
47688 / 58345 = ~0.82
From the total damage done, we can conclude that, on average, Seal of Command does about 82% of what Seal of Blood does.
And as for gear, I've found a guide for it, also on the WoW forums:
http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=104544938&sid=1
That math pretty much makes sense to me thx for posting it :)
I think i'll just do as they said in the wow forums also; "Group as holy to get gear" ;D
Thanks for all replies so far, helped me out a lot ^^
I think i'll just do as they said in the wow forums also; "Group as holy to get gear" ;D
Thanks for all replies so far, helped me out a lot ^^
Recent Visitors: 198
All times are in CST
Anonymous Guests (198)
- Forums
- World of Warcraft
- Class Discussion
- Retri in raids and heroic?
© 2024 Fanbyte LLC