....o man, keep this please!Follow

Okay, time for a bit of math. Both Hemo and SS are normalized, which means that weapon speed is a much smaller concern for Hemo now (more of a concern than it is with SS due to an additional 25% weapon damage applied, but not to the degree you'd see with it being unnormalized).

Assuming that 100% of the Hemo debuff is consumed, let's see where the SS/Hemo breakpoint is to the best of my ability. Sinister Strike is credited with Lethality (crit = crit * 1.3 = newcrit for modeling purposes), Aggression (6%) and Suprise Attacks (10%). Hemo is credited with Dirty Deeds (120% damage 35% of the time assuming normal distribution patterns, or an average of 7% increased damage) and Serrated Blades (560 ArPen, or ~4.5% Damage in typical raid situations). Weapons are assumed to be the Blade of Infamy/Savagery combo.

SS: ((100.3 * 2.6 + AP * 2.4 + 98) * 1.06 * 1.1) * 1.39
Hemo: ((100.3 * 2.6 + AP * 2.4) * 1.25 * 1.07 * 1.045) * 1.3 + 360

Head asplode. Simplifying...

(260.78 + AP * 2.4 + 98) * 1.621
422.72 + AP * 3.89 + 158.86
581.58 + AP * 3.89

(260.78 + AP * 2.4) * 1.817 + 360
473.837 + AP * 4.36 + 360
833.837 + AP * 4.36

581.58 + AP * 3.89 = 833.84 + AP * 4.36

Uh. Okay. That's not quite what I was expecting... with these weapons, you'd need to have a _negative_ AP score for Sinister Strike to win. Without ANY AP, the 'breakpoint' for parity would be at... hm... 62 DPS. So, if you're using outdaed blue weapons (or greens) at 70 there might be a point at which they'd be the same, but otherwise... no.

Okay then. That was unexpected. Time to do the math again without factoring in the damage bonus then. Cheating and taking some of the final results...

SS: 581.58 + AP * 3.89
Hemo: 473.837 + AP * 4.36
107.74 = AP * .47
229.23 = AP

Also... unexpected, but not as hideously so. Without counting the debuff at _all_, Sinister Strike outdamages Hemo... when you have 229 AP. The factors I did _not_ consider are Adrenaline Rush and Combat Potency, but over a long fight the lower base Hemo cost compensates for this using my Guesstimath, which is of course always accurate.* (* Or not, but someone else gets to do _that_ math).

Interesting. Very... interesting.

Pretty much.

In answer to your earlier question - normalization is when you use a set value to determine the AP modifier on the attack. 'Normalized' attacks all use a unified value - 2.4 for one-handers except daggers, 1.7 for daggers - to calculate the bonus damage AP applies to the attack. Unnormalized attacks just use the weapon speed - this catergory includes the Warrior Slam (channeled attack) and previous Rogue Hemo.

The reason for normalization is that, way back when in the Times of Yore, you were better off using a weapon with much lower DPS but slower speed over a slightly faster but much higher DPS epic. This had the... unfortunate side effect of making pretty much every Epic weapon drop in Molten Core inferior to Blues you could pick up via questing or just doing level 60 instances. In many cases certain _greens_ were superior to epic weapons because of how important speed was with all the instant attacks.

Normalization goes in, speed becomes much, much, much less important.

So if Hemo is now better dmg and combo regeneration then deep combat SS...

Why even bother going 41 in combat?

5/33/23 new cookie cutter pvp spec?

From my understanding, that build will do more damage then 1x/4x/0 while having Preparation... not to mention that mobility is greatly helped by having 2 imp sprint and 2 vanish.

Edited, Nov 3rd 2007 9:21pm by Tyrandor

I don't know. I also don't know how this could possibly stay in the current form, but I guess we'll see.

Raid-wise it's not even close unless I made a serious calculation error, and I don't see where.

EDIT:


Going any deeper into Sub is still a bad idea, though.

Edited, Nov 3rd 2007 9:29pm by RPZip

I don't think so for PvP. Shadowstep still isn't great, and hemo has far too many dependancies.

Theory time.

Ignoring the AE effects, Blade Flurry is 20% haste 12.5% of the time, or 2.5% passive haste... which is quite good for a single talent point. The question becomes if 4/5 (Sword or Fist Spec) and 2/2 WE is better or worse than 8% AP and Premed or 5/5 Lethality.

Okay. That wasn't really a question. 4% Crit (or x2 Swing) and 2.5% increased hit chance on _all_ abilities > 8% AP and Premed. If you're using a Mace it'd be a different story, but PvE-wise now that Hemo is normalized again there's no real impetus to use a Mace (i.e. Syphon of the Natherazim or similar).

As for Energy generation... I don't have any idea at all what the Spreadsheet or mathcraft says the ideal Hemo combination is, but I can't see Combat Potency beating it even with a 1.4 speed OH and a fair chunk of haste/capped +hit. It's looking more and more like Hemo is crushing Combat with this change.

By dependencies for Hemo, I meant raid buffs. RP's new theorycraft might blow that out of the water tho.

Tyr, it may not be a big deal but I'm sure one of the buffs you're missing is a Flask of some kind.

Just thought I'd point that out.

Ming is on the "don't spend all your talent points, that would be cheating" bandwagon?

Ming apparently missed the memo that Hemo was normalized now. That's the problem when you assume you're better than everyone else and don't discuss these things with other people. I mad the same assumption, and was corrected, and now our information is accurate. His information will just continue to be flawed.

Well, your original link was to an incomplete WoWHead talent link, so I dunno.

I can't see this change staying... unchanged, but we'll see if it hits live or not. Viable Hemo is one thing, Hemo outdamaging SS _and_ giving a bonus debuff is another.



4/5 Sword Spec and 2/2 WE > 5/5 Sword Spec and 1/2 WE.

I'm talking PvE here. =p