....o man, keep this please!Follow

Wow...hemo just became the best instant attacks Rogues have. It already beat SS on the PTR, now it's just going to have higher base damage at nearly all levels of AP. Time to go do some more testing.

Patched up, respecced, on my way to Blasted Lands to test.

On a side note, the Zeppelins now have guards and crews. Kind of nifty.

1116.7 DPS without using Blade Flurry once (there was an Alliance Rogue there with me). Pretty damn impressive.

That is the ****.

What's the Hemo build you got tho?

Are you including Dual Wield Spec & Weapon Spec as well as Weapon Expertise?

Edited, Nov 3rd 2007 11:56am by Tyrandor

Just realized that I forgot Dirty Deeds got buffed. That's going to change the calculations even more towards Hemo.

Well, assuming that Blizz doesn't immediately nerf this, I'm going to come down and say something I thought I never would.

Sub is now viable.

Ive been waiting on something like this for a while. So, hemo is viable for raiding situations, but what about other situations and other sub specs? Maybe ShoS can survive through resillience now. I would love to see shadowstep back again :P

The Shadowstep doesn't require Stealth...? 0.o

I have a couple of problems with the data in the above post, not with the calculations as those appear to be correct but with the data points you chose. I think that hemo won't ever do more initial damage than SS unless you achieve a level of attack power and some gear that is either very rare or just incredibly hard. First, post BC hemorrhage (hemo) does not do more damage than sinister strike (SS) unless you have AP => 2500 and yet that is the first point you use in your data and all other AP values you used only got bigger. The new (possible) damage equation of hemo still has this limitation. I decided to do some math of my own and I used the data points of 1550, 2000, 2500, and 3000. The latter two of those four I used only used to see how hemo scales with AP. The value of 1550 is something I've achieved as a combat rogue and we've already seen rogues who have broken the 2000 mark as combat rogues sans raid buffs (see link below).

Using the same weapon as you and not accounting for crits and damage mitigation
and using the following equation for SS:

(280 + ((AP/14)*2.4) +98)* 1.10 * 1.06

And for Hemo:


(280 + ((AP/14)*2.8))*1.25

Here are the values you get:

***** SS ** *Hemo**
1550| 750.5 | 737.5
2000| 840.5 | 850
2500| 940.5 | 975
3000| 1040.4 | 1100

Hemo beats SS sans the debuff once you get 2000 AP. However, the weapon you use is a 2.8 weapon and a very rare find to begin with. I had to click on the link you provided just to find it on thottbot and it's a drop in BT. If you use a weapon with only a 2.7 speed such as the dragonstike or blinkstrike (since 2.7 weapons are easier to find) Hemo doesn't perform nearly as well, and doesn't beat SS until the 2500 AP mark. The only kind of rogue that has a chance of getting to that kind of AP is one like this:

http://eu.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Magtheridon&n=Inthya

I think that most players are no where near this level and that said I think that people thinking of specing hemo should be given the following warning: If you are a rogue with around 1500-1700 AP and using a badass weapon something like the S2 mainhand sword, Hemorrhage will still do 42 damage less than SS. This is just bringing back the old arguement of hemo's raid viability Pre-BC and I suspect the answer is the same as it was then: combat still does more damage. You're going to have give up some of your talents in assassination assuming your the cookie cutter 20/41/0 combat rogue and your last point in combat or something like it. Whether or not hemo is going to be better than staying full combat spec is arguable at best until you reach a ridiculous level of AP, and then it will do barely better, and at the end of the day you've got to figure out what damage you've lost from lack of relentless strikes, malice, and lethality. So when the next patch comes out if you're in that boat you are probably better off to wait and see rather than run out and respec.

Right now I must say that I like the changes I'm seeing in subtlety, and I would like to actually have a 3rd tree again. However, for raid it still looks suspect.

Edited, Nov 3rd 2007 5:18pm by FelRogue

There's a very genuine concern however that someone will see this and assume Hemo > SS and will try it for pvp, 5 man raids, farming, etc...

It seems you need to be geared to an insane level (We're talking Black Temple Rogues - after all, weapon slower then 2.6 are hard as hell to find outside of BT...) in order for Hemo to be better then SS/Combat... so saying it's 'viable' might be jumping the gun for 99% of Rogues.



My rogue's gear is purely kara/gruul, I've had no luck in SSC/Eye so far.

And I'm at 1.7k atk.

Now again, unless I'm mistaken somewhere in my buff list (which is quite possible) - rogues with around that level of attack power will be around 2.5k raid buffed... and around 3k after proc buff.

3.5k is rather high without having at least 2k unbuffed.

You can check my rogue out if you want - Here.

Even if I was to resocket all my gems with pure +16atk, my attack power would go up by what... 60-70 atk? Still not enough to account for Nooble's generous 3.5k baseline attack power in a raid.

Edit: GG, I logged out in my pvp gear. Going to log back on, put on my pve gear and log back out... but it could take a while.


Edited, Nov 3rd 2007 7:15pm by Tyrandor

360 exta, yes... but how much do you have now?

I've been stacking +hit and still working on gear in general, so only like 1400.

But my point is it is viable, just involves changing stuff around.


EDIT: what do we mean by normalized?

Edited, Nov 3rd 2007 8:34pm by ArundelvalEstar