Got armor of 24k+ and defense of 421 in dire bear form at 70, but I'm getting conflicting assessments as to whether or not I'm crit proof now.
What's the minimum number?
What contributes to defense (so maybe I can trade off some of those stats for other ones)?
Does it scale by boss level (in other words, maybe a 400 def for a 70 boss, 410 for 71, etc)?
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Am I crit proof?Follow
First, armor does not affect your crittable status. The only stats is your Defense Skill, which can found on your character sheet and amongst your weapon skills when you press K.
Now, the confusing part is that there is a thing callged Defense Skill and another called Defense Rating which are not to be confused for one another. Defense Skill is what I've just talked about, and Defense Rating is what you can find on items.
What you need as a Feral Tank with the talent Survival of the Fittest is 415 Defense Skill. To reach that, you need 154 (or 156 according to some other sources) Defense Rating from your gear. And yeah, the only thing that contribute to your Defense Skill is Defense Rating on gear.
For an in-depths explanation on why you need those amounts, you can check, and I strongly recommend doing so, this WoW Wiki page. Basically that 415 is for level 73 bosses, and yes it does scale with level, but don't bother with that and just go with 415.
So yah, that makes you crit-immune. Crush-immune, on the other hand cannot be done as a Druid as far as I know, if you were wondering.
Now, the confusing part is that there is a thing callged Defense Skill and another called Defense Rating which are not to be confused for one another. Defense Skill is what I've just talked about, and Defense Rating is what you can find on items.
What you need as a Feral Tank with the talent Survival of the Fittest is 415 Defense Skill. To reach that, you need 154 (or 156 according to some other sources) Defense Rating from your gear. And yeah, the only thing that contribute to your Defense Skill is Defense Rating on gear.
For an in-depths explanation on why you need those amounts, you can check, and I strongly recommend doing so, this WoW Wiki page. Basically that 415 is for level 73 bosses, and yes it does scale with level, but don't bother with that and just go with 415.
So yah, that makes you crit-immune. Crush-immune, on the other hand cannot be done as a Druid as far as I know, if you were wondering.
I seem to have done it then -
421 defense
169 defense rating
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v254/cigarskunk/critproof.jpg
421 defense
169 defense rating
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v254/cigarskunk/critproof.jpg
Correct. Resilience can also can also help reach the cap as well.
For raid bosses (considered level 73) you need to reduce your chance to be crit by 5.6%. SotF gets 3% of this, so you need 2.6% reduction between resilience & defense.
Mousing over the defense & resilience figures in your character pane will tell you what crit reduction % each gives. Add them together and you can tell if you have the necesary 2.6%
From memory the cap = 156 Def Rating or 103 Resilience. (or a mixture of the 2)
For raid bosses (considered level 73) you need to reduce your chance to be crit by 5.6%. SotF gets 3% of this, so you need 2.6% reduction between resilience & defense.
Mousing over the defense & resilience figures in your character pane will tell you what crit reduction % each gives. Add them together and you can tell if you have the necesary 2.6%
From memory the cap = 156 Def Rating or 103 Resilience. (or a mixture of the 2)
I've got SotF so according to the article you linked, I'm crit and crush proof - woot - main tank mat to the max!
You definitely are NOT crush proof! The only way for a druid to be crush proof is to get something like 90% dodge!
This is one of our drawbacks as tanks compared to Warriors. With their dodge, block and parry mixed with their ShieldBlock, they can basically be immune to crushing blows. All we have is dodge so we fall a long way short. Hopefully this will get looked at eventually.
This is one of our drawbacks as tanks compared to Warriors. With their dodge, block and parry mixed with their ShieldBlock, they can basically be immune to crushing blows. All we have is dodge so we fall a long way short. Hopefully this will get looked at eventually.
RareBeast wrote:
You definitely are NOT crush proof! The only way for a druid to be crush proof is to get something like 90% dodge!
Or some 6-digit figure in armor. xD
Quote:
Or some 6-digit figure in armor. xD
I really hope you're joking.
Quote:
This is one of our drawbacks as tanks compared to Warriors. With their dodge, block and parry mixed with their ShieldBlock, they can basically be immune to crushing blows. All we have is dodge so we fall a long way short. Hopefully this will get looked at eventually.
Considering that 50%+ of the Hyjal/BT bosses can't crush anyway, I'll trade ya!
RPZip wrote:
Quote:
Or some 6-digit figure in armor. xD
I really hope you're joking.
xD = humor, but I just looked it up...not six digits, but still would require a *lot* of armor to mitigate a crushing blow to the point where it would essentially do only as much damage as a 'hit' on a Warrior (some ~42k, way outside what the WoW engine, let alone druids, is capable of). Sorry for the mixup :p
Edited, Nov 1st 2007 12:55pm by Norellicus
Edited, Nov 1st 2007 1:05pm by Norellicus
Norellicus wrote:
RPZip wrote:
Quote:
Or some 6-digit figure in armor. xD
I really hope you're joking.
xD = humor, but I just looked it up...not six digits, but still would require a *lot* of armor to mitigate a crushing blow to the point where it would essentially do only as much damage as a 'hit' on a Warrior (some ~42k, way outside what we're capable of). Sorry for the mixup :p
Edited, Nov 1st 2007 12:55pm by Norellicus
Actually I've seen 41-42K armor on my paperdoll when the right things proc (priests and shamans can give 10% more armor each). The problem is not that, it's that there's a hard cap of 75% damage reduction. Armor after that is useless. If I recall, for a 73 mob that's about 37K armor.
selebrin of the Seven Seas wrote:
Norellicus wrote:
RPZip wrote:
Quote:
Or some 6-digit figure in armor. xD
I really hope you're joking.
xD = humor, but I just looked it up...not six digits, but still would require a *lot* of armor to mitigate a crushing blow to the point where it would essentially do only as much damage as a 'hit' on a Warrior (some ~42k, way outside what we're capable of). Sorry for the mixup :p
Edited, Nov 1st 2007 12:55pm by Norellicus
Actually I've seen 41-42K armor on my paperdoll when the right things proc (priests and shamans can give 10% more armor each). The problem is not that, it's that there's a hard cap of 75% damage reduction. Armor after that is useless. If I recall, for a 73 mob that's about 37K armor.
I think the numbered cap is 35800 or somewhere close (granted, 37k could be considered 'close', since just a few thousand is almost a drop in the bucket at that point). Yeah I know it's impossible to reach (see edits on last post), that's why I thought it was slightly amusing.
Edited, Nov 1st 2007 1:07pm by Norellicus
Welp, at least I'm crit proof. :D
As for getting armor into the 30s, might be feasable with stuff from the tier 5+ range considering the armor multiplier that bear form and various druid tallents give you.
As for getting armor into the 30s, might be feasable with stuff from the tier 5+ range considering the armor multiplier that bear form and various druid tallents give you.
Just to clarify:
Skill is what you see right off the bat on your Toon Sheet, and Rating is what you see when you hover the mouse over the "Defence" numbers on you Toon Sheet?
I'm like 99.999% sure I have this right but I wanna make sure for me lol.
Quote:
Survival of the Fittest is 415 Defense Skill.
Skill is what you see right off the bat on your Toon Sheet, and Rating is what you see when you hover the mouse over the "Defence" numbers on you Toon Sheet?
I'm like 99.999% sure I have this right but I wanna make sure for me lol.
Without SotF you need 490 Defense SKILL. If you have SotF it drops the requirement to 415 Defense SKILL.
Without gear, you have a base Defense SKILL of 350. You need 156 Defense RATING to lift your SKILL from 350 to 415.
Blizzard made things a little complicated when they added all the ratings to the game. Luckily the tooltips tell you most of what you need to know when you mouseover them.
Without gear, you have a base Defense SKILL of 350. You need 156 Defense RATING to lift your SKILL from 350 to 415.
Blizzard made things a little complicated when they added all the ratings to the game. Luckily the tooltips tell you most of what you need to know when you mouseover them.
I can't really justify not getting Survival of the Fittest as a feral spec, even if you're not inclined to tank - it's just too good a tallent.
rusttle wrote:
I can't really justify not getting Survival of the Fittest as a feral spec, even if you're not inclined to tank - it's just too good a tallent.
Hell yes. You get a Defense Skill discount of 75, which, at 2.4 rating required per skill-up, means you can skip out on about 180 Defense Rating. That's a lot of sockets used for something else. Like health or dodge.
3 talent points for 180 Defense Rating.
Please "talk up" if your comprehension white-shifts. I will use simple-happy language-words to help you understand.
Quote:
This is one of our drawbacks as tanks compared to Warriors. With their dodge, block and parry mixed with their ShieldBlock, they can basically be immune to crushing blows. All we have is dodge so we fall a long way short. Hopefully this will get looked at eventually.
Even though warriors have higher avoidance, druids have more health and mitigation (read: warriors get block and parry, druids get more HP and AC). I've also read (though can't verify) that druids have a higher dodge chance than warriors, so the dodge chance may be somewhere between the dodge+parry or even equal to it. Not to mention paladins focus on HP/armor on boss fights over avoidance.
The reason druids make good tanks, then, is because they take less spikey damage. If you have a warrior who may take 500 on a block then 2000 on a crushing blow, vs. a druid who may take 1250 each hit (granted I'm simplifying and using random numbers), the 1250/hit is going to be easier to heal (that's also the reason 2H's with procs are preferred in PvP).
WoWWiki wrote:
...a feral druid [should have] 154 defense rating vs lvl 73 mobs as are in end-game raids...
Feral druids can take a talent that reduces the inbound crit rate by 3%, placing the values at 400 and 415 defense skill, respectively, at level 70. Due to the new talent Survival of the Fittest Druids need only 65 Defense [skill] extra to negate all critical hits, in other words 415 at level 70. This talent provides great relief to Druid Tanks since Defense Leather gear is scarce.
Feral druids can take a talent that reduces the inbound crit rate by 3%, placing the values at 400 and 415 defense skill, respectively, at level 70. Due to the new talent Survival of the Fittest Druids need only 65 Defense [skill] extra to negate all critical hits, in other words 415 at level 70. This talent provides great relief to Druid Tanks since Defense Leather gear is scarce.
You are crit proof if spec'd right. In fact, it would appear you could stand to lose 6 Defense Skill (You would be very effective against level 74 creatures, let me know if you find one). Oh, get more Armor. Your healers will love you for it.
skribs wrote:
Quote:
This is one of our drawbacks as tanks compared to Warriors. With their dodge, block and parry mixed with their ShieldBlock, they can basically be immune to crushing blows. All we have is dodge so we fall a long way short. Hopefully this will get looked at eventually.
Even though warriors have higher avoidance, druids have more health and mitigation (read: warriors get block and parry, druids get more HP and AC). I've also read (though can't verify) that druids have a higher dodge chance than warriors, so the dodge chance may be somewhere between the dodge+parry or even equal to it. Not to mention paladins focus on HP/armor on boss fights over avoidance.
The reason druids make good tanks, then, is because they take less spikey damage. If you have a warrior who may take 500 on a block then 2000 on a crushing blow, vs. a druid who may take 1250 each hit (granted I'm simplifying and using random numbers), the 1250/hit is going to be easier to heal (that's also the reason 2H's with procs are preferred in PvP).
It's a bit shaky footing on absolute comparisons between the classes. Druids' dodge/agility ratio is higher, about meeting what warriors get in parry and dodge (yadda yadda comparing two different classes yadda, everything here is intended as "more or less"). Block isn't really an "avoidance" ability, but a mitigation one; it doesn't stop an attack outright, just reduces the damage.
In early raiding, your comment about spiky damage is correct, but once people gear up, it actually flips. A druid takes less damage per normal hit, but get crushing blow spikes of damage. A warrior takes more damage per hit, but constantly. In the long run (for the ideal "equally geared" classes) a warrior takes a bit less damage in the long run.
Hp more or less evens out as well, maybe 1000 hp more for the druid, but at raid-damage levels that's not gonna mean one less healer or anything. In the end Warriors are better at spell-damage fights (16% mitigation vs. 0, and high-end sets of gear made for resist and tanking), and druids are better at offtanking (we can be functional in our tanking tree even when the mob isn't hitting us) or physical fights without crushing blows (Gruul's hurtful strikes for example). For fights in-between either class is ok, and can be outdone by someone of the other class who's better at playing it.
Well, I was counting block as avoidance because it helps knock crushing blows off the table. While it is not true avoidance, it does help push CB's off - which all the avoidance stats do. It was simpler to lump them together.
A Druid's inability to be crush proof, compared to a warrior (or pally) can be a slight drawback against some of the hardest content.
THen again, make up for it by getting your health into the 20K range.
THen again, make up for it by getting your health into the 20K range.
Once you attain uncrittable status is there a benefit to getting more def and/or resilience?
Zalophus wrote:
Once you attain uncrittable status is there a benefit to getting more def and/or resilience?
Resil not so much, Defense rating can boost your dodge a bit but you're better off with straight Dodge/Agility for that. It's "wasted" in that you could be doing something better with the itemization budget after the crit-proof point, but it's not totally useless beyond it.
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