Forgive me if I'm igornant on this but why?
Playing a former feral druid, and now a prot
Pally, I always see this, do most Rogues not understand
That tanks build rage/ mana by getting hit?
And if they cant build rage/man they cant generate threat?
just frustrating at times I see it in pugs, in guild runs,
in guild raids... >.>
understandably, I'm sure most peeps here know the game mechanics, its still a pain in the **** to fight with some one over threat >.<
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- why do Rogues stun lock asap in pve?
why do Rogues stun lock asap in pve?Follow
I guess you are just unlucky, but as far as my PvE experiences go, I have never had that problem, all they do is cheap shot and maybe Kidney shot if they see tank is having a hard time... but that's it.
Maybe you should try explaining to them whta you just said here, and perhaps, PERHAPS, they will understand, and dps, instead of stunlocking.
Who knows? maybe I'm the lucky one, not getting this on groups.
Edited, Oct 30th 2007 11:38pm by muffinyumyum
Maybe you should try explaining to them whta you just said here, and perhaps, PERHAPS, they will understand, and dps, instead of stunlocking.
Who knows? maybe I'm the lucky one, not getting this on groups.
Edited, Oct 30th 2007 11:38pm by muffinyumyum
Tell the mouth-breathing, inbred, short-bus rogues that you group with to L2P and open with Garrote.
You're seeing this on guild runs? Time to find a new guild, or avoid your guild rogues like the plague. Also, please send me a PM with their armory links. I've got a contest to win.
You're seeing this on guild runs? Time to find a new guild, or avoid your guild rogues like the plague. Also, please send me a PM with their armory links. I've got a contest to win.
Jophiel wrote:
I managed to be both retarded and entertaining.
Really, this is no wonder to me. And this doesn't mean that the rogues are dumb either. They just lack some raiding experience.
When leveling as a rogue, you learn survival. And stun-locking mobs helps a great deal in this regard, cause you're dealing nice domage (combo point generation of muti for instance) while not taking any since the mob can't do sh.t. That works wonders in solo (or duo as far as I was concerned, leveling up with a priest friend).
Now, when you start reading, unless you play one of the classes you mentioned in the initial post, you can't on earth guess that your stun-lock is going to cause problems to the tanks. So just tell them about this, and they'll switch to garrote as an opening and SnD / rupture / evisc as finishers. That is, unless they're too dumb to change a bad habbit, but in that case, you just don't group with them any more.
nostra
When leveling as a rogue, you learn survival. And stun-locking mobs helps a great deal in this regard, cause you're dealing nice domage (combo point generation of muti for instance) while not taking any since the mob can't do sh.t. That works wonders in solo (or duo as far as I was concerned, leveling up with a priest friend).
Now, when you start reading, unless you play one of the classes you mentioned in the initial post, you can't on earth guess that your stun-lock is going to cause problems to the tanks. So just tell them about this, and they'll switch to garrote as an opening and SnD / rupture / evisc as finishers. That is, unless they're too dumb to change a bad habbit, but in that case, you just don't group with them any more.
nostra
ive been a tank and a rogue, you just gotta talk to people, sometimes the tank will wish the rogue to stunlock while the group dps's that mob, its 1 less mob for the tank to deal with that causes no damage while he is being killed, sometimes the tank will want to tank all the mobs and get the rogue to do as much damage as possible, just talk to each other and agree on a plan.
btw sometimes its better for a rogue to stun lock in a dungeon, for example if there are 3 melee dps in a party and you are up against the poisioners in botanica or the bombers in blood furnace then its better to have a rogue stun lock this mob while you kill him as the healer can have a hard time healing 3 guys at once taking damage from the bombs. also you dont have to worry about overaggroing a stunlocked mob, everyone can open up full.
usually stunlock off tank is safer, especially on mobs that cant get tanked ealily like casters
either way works well as long as everyone is on the same plan
Edited, Oct 31st 2007 7:36am by kalloth
Edited, Oct 31st 2007 7:39am by kalloth
btw sometimes its better for a rogue to stun lock in a dungeon, for example if there are 3 melee dps in a party and you are up against the poisioners in botanica or the bombers in blood furnace then its better to have a rogue stun lock this mob while you kill him as the healer can have a hard time healing 3 guys at once taking damage from the bombs. also you dont have to worry about overaggroing a stunlocked mob, everyone can open up full.
usually stunlock off tank is safer, especially on mobs that cant get tanked ealily like casters
either way works well as long as everyone is on the same plan
Edited, Oct 31st 2007 7:36am by kalloth
Edited, Oct 31st 2007 7:39am by kalloth
Pre raid at least, it is all about playstyle....Rogues stunlocking in PVE whilst grouping does work - or doesn't work, depending on what the tank is used to - and what class the tank is, because threat generation mechanics are different for Warriors, Palas and Feral Druids.
My most frequent group in the guild has one member who is able to play less regulary than us, so we 4 man instances regularly which makes some elements of stunlocking pretty essential to our not wiping.
- with big groups of mobs unless we CC as many mobs as possible for as long as possible, there is a real risk that the healer will end up burning all their mana early on - or indeed have to heal so rapidly he pulls aggro away from the tank... which is a good time to start contemplating a graveyard run.
Nothing special about it but with 4 against big groups of mobs our practise is as follows:
Sap (if avail), Sheep (or Both).
Tank goes in grabs solid aggro on rest of mobs - then I (the rogue) CS, and the moment I do that the Mage opens up with everything he has (on the mob the tank has targetted ofc) By the time the tank stands any danger of loosing aggro that mob is dead (or I KS it) and the mage and I polish it off - while the tank tabs over to the next mob. The priest (so far) hasnt really had to use up too much mana, which he is going to need when the sapped / sheeped mobs join the melee.
Seems to work for us. But with our five man group I play completely differently and stunlock is reduced to the opening sap and occasional gouge or KS if a fight goes awry and a mob needs stopping in his tracks.
Anyhow, five cents worth.
My most frequent group in the guild has one member who is able to play less regulary than us, so we 4 man instances regularly which makes some elements of stunlocking pretty essential to our not wiping.
- with big groups of mobs unless we CC as many mobs as possible for as long as possible, there is a real risk that the healer will end up burning all their mana early on - or indeed have to heal so rapidly he pulls aggro away from the tank... which is a good time to start contemplating a graveyard run.
Nothing special about it but with 4 against big groups of mobs our practise is as follows:
Sap (if avail), Sheep (or Both).
Tank goes in grabs solid aggro on rest of mobs - then I (the rogue) CS, and the moment I do that the Mage opens up with everything he has (on the mob the tank has targetted ofc) By the time the tank stands any danger of loosing aggro that mob is dead (or I KS it) and the mage and I polish it off - while the tank tabs over to the next mob. The priest (so far) hasnt really had to use up too much mana, which he is going to need when the sapped / sheeped mobs join the melee.
Seems to work for us. But with our five man group I play completely differently and stunlock is reduced to the opening sap and occasional gouge or KS if a fight goes awry and a mob needs stopping in his tracks.
Anyhow, five cents worth.
whether i stun or not in a 5 man is purely based on the healer
i dont care about your threat if i know that healer isnt gonna keep you alive, i will stun the **** outta a mob instead.... generally with a competent group ill be all for garrote opener, bleed rotation
but then again, ive stepped up and told tanks to **** themselves and did it myself (all the way to sethekk halls thank you very much)
rogues who dunno how tanking works thinks stun = less dmg = more help!
i know i only do that when more help means not letting you die cuz our shadow pri healer is rocking a mighty +400 healing 1 level below the recommended level of the instance =\
rogues can control their threat pretty well, so only real reason that should even be a issue though is other classes not following the figure
fire mage, dps warr, and enhance shamans being the worst of the bunch in regular 5 mans lol
"hai! lets open on mobs by pulling with pyro into a pom/pyro! :D"
ya, how bout no lol
i dont care about your threat if i know that healer isnt gonna keep you alive, i will stun the **** outta a mob instead.... generally with a competent group ill be all for garrote opener, bleed rotation
but then again, ive stepped up and told tanks to **** themselves and did it myself (all the way to sethekk halls thank you very much)
rogues who dunno how tanking works thinks stun = less dmg = more help!
i know i only do that when more help means not letting you die cuz our shadow pri healer is rocking a mighty +400 healing 1 level below the recommended level of the instance =\
rogues can control their threat pretty well, so only real reason that should even be a issue though is other classes not following the figure
fire mage, dps warr, and enhance shamans being the worst of the bunch in regular 5 mans lol
"hai! lets open on mobs by pulling with pyro into a pom/pyro! :D"
ya, how bout no lol
Opening with CS is not stunlocking. If you're seriously talking about stunlocking (CS->SS->KS or CS->Mut->KS), then your rogues need to learn to play.
I will say that when I raid Kara, I do use CS on the trash that is not immune to stun. All the mobs are immune to bleed, so it's the only opener a non-dagger rogue can use, and the 2 CP it generates let's you quickly get into a SnD cycle without the up-front threat of 2 Sinister Strikes. I do let the tank get a hit or two in first before starting though.
I'm not sure I understand your problem with this on your pally tank. If you're only holding 1 target, then you're doing something wrong to begin with. You should be holding 3-4 mobs per pull easily, in which case you're getting hit plenty. If you've got your consecrate up, you're generating threat even if the mob is stunned.
If you're having a problem with it in your runs, just tell them not to do it. If they don't stop, kick them or leave the group. It shouldn't be a big deal.
I will say that when I raid Kara, I do use CS on the trash that is not immune to stun. All the mobs are immune to bleed, so it's the only opener a non-dagger rogue can use, and the 2 CP it generates let's you quickly get into a SnD cycle without the up-front threat of 2 Sinister Strikes. I do let the tank get a hit or two in first before starting though.
I'm not sure I understand your problem with this on your pally tank. If you're only holding 1 target, then you're doing something wrong to begin with. You should be holding 3-4 mobs per pull easily, in which case you're getting hit plenty. If you've got your consecrate up, you're generating threat even if the mob is stunned.
If you're having a problem with it in your runs, just tell them not to do it. If they don't stop, kick them or leave the group. It shouldn't be a big deal.
My main is a tanking Warrior and it really doesn't bother me if a Rogue stuns a mob or even keeps it in a stun-lock situation. Yes, it does mean a bit less rage but it also means less healing and less threat on the healer. I'm not there to do damage but simply to hold aggro and as long as the 'active' mobs are on me and I have enough rage to use my basic threat moves then I'm fine.
The only thing that I remember a Rogue doing recently that kind of bugged me was that the Rogue was stunning the main target mob before it got to me which meant that the fight was happening a good 5-8 yards closer to the other mob groups than I intended and that I would have to run up to the mob because the Rogue's stun was more threatening than the single gun shot I had on it. I'm not the type to say anything unless it was really a problem for the group as a whole so I kept quiet as we were still getting through stuff without much trouble.
I do remember back before the patch that made it so sap didn't break stealth, being in a group with a Rogue who insisted that he had to sap on every group even though he didn't have improved sap and so we'd have one sapped mob and everything else going after the Rogue making much more work for me than if we just dealt with the group with no CC at all. I started charging in before he got his sap in because that actually worked smoother and the Rogue actually complained that I should wait for him to sap. I would have much prefered a Rouge who liked stunning things during combat instead. LoL
As for my own Rogues, I'm afraid I never really learned the art of stun-locking (though I should try to get the basics down) so my usual tactic in an instance is to sap my target and then get behind the main DPS target and hit ambush once the tank has a few hits on and just DPS from there. I do watch for adds (or broken CC) though and will toss a blind or gouge if they look to be a problem.
The only thing that I remember a Rogue doing recently that kind of bugged me was that the Rogue was stunning the main target mob before it got to me which meant that the fight was happening a good 5-8 yards closer to the other mob groups than I intended and that I would have to run up to the mob because the Rogue's stun was more threatening than the single gun shot I had on it. I'm not the type to say anything unless it was really a problem for the group as a whole so I kept quiet as we were still getting through stuff without much trouble.
I do remember back before the patch that made it so sap didn't break stealth, being in a group with a Rogue who insisted that he had to sap on every group even though he didn't have improved sap and so we'd have one sapped mob and everything else going after the Rogue making much more work for me than if we just dealt with the group with no CC at all. I started charging in before he got his sap in because that actually worked smoother and the Rogue actually complained that I should wait for him to sap. I would have much prefered a Rouge who liked stunning things during combat instead. LoL
As for my own Rogues, I'm afraid I never really learned the art of stun-locking (though I should try to get the basics down) so my usual tactic in an instance is to sap my target and then get behind the main DPS target and hit ambush once the tank has a few hits on and just DPS from there. I do watch for adds (or broken CC) though and will toss a blind or gouge if they look to be a problem.
I do open with garrote, then I'll kick if the mob is casting, then, if they cast again and the CD for kick isn't down yet, I'll kidney shot. In some cases if the tank is dying I'll kidney shot just to keep the ******* alive. And there have been plenty of other situations where it just takes FOREVER to kill a mob sometimes and the only way to really get the HP down quickly is to kidney shot. If a tank can't keep aggro from one damn kidney shot once every minute or so, then they shouldn't be tanking.
I only stunlock when something goes for a healer.
To the OP.
As a Pally tank, i also find it inconvenient and common to see Rogues stun lock everything.
if they stun lock, there is a good chance that i cant keep my threat up on it and it takes off at whatever it likes. as half a pallies threat is from reflected damage.
i try to let any rogues know, but more often then not, they continue stun locking about 10 minutes after i warn them.
i just assume that is due to muscle memory and the need to stun lock in all other things they do. more or less a force of habit due to 70 lvls of stunning things as a form of personal damage mitagation or to create oppertunities.
i warn them once, then i stop careing if they pull and get them selves killed.
As a Pally tank, i also find it inconvenient and common to see Rogues stun lock everything.
if they stun lock, there is a good chance that i cant keep my threat up on it and it takes off at whatever it likes. as half a pallies threat is from reflected damage.
i try to let any rogues know, but more often then not, they continue stun locking about 10 minutes after i warn them.
i just assume that is due to muscle memory and the need to stun lock in all other things they do. more or less a force of habit due to 70 lvls of stunning things as a form of personal damage mitagation or to create oppertunities.
i warn them once, then i stop careing if they pull and get them selves killed.
one thing, they think stuning = ownage
but actually the answer is no, and they dont see that
mainly because they dont know how threat workds
or they are speced assasination which makes them think that being rogue is killig without getin hit?
but actually the answer is no, and they dont see that
mainly because they dont know how threat workds
or they are speced assasination which makes them think that being rogue is killig without getin hit?
When i used to tank way back in the old pre-bc days, i took imp revenge for one build, and quickly changed back cause the stun sucked....If i start tanking again and a rogue starts stun locking, he'll get a quick boot from the group.
simple thing really, if rogues were given mail. rogues would be super dodgey offtanks. and would stunlock as much as possible. past that most rogues keep up bleed/S&D evis/enveneom rotation. and if they are using kidney shot on anything either than
1. runners
2. people going for the healer
3. the mob about to kill the warrior (ie warrior dropped to less than 20% life)
you are best to remember their names so you can back out of any party that has them inside.
ps. sometimes the rogue is overgeared for the instance and is looking for a specific drop..
at that point ignore him. he can probably solo any single trash mob in that instance and the warrior has no hope of gaining aggro on the targeted mob for more than 2-4 seconds anyway.
I've run sl and some other places looking for specific drops with my pre kara character. at that point most of the tanks are running for the first few times and have no hope of catching up to my aggro unless I keep spamming feint each time it's up.
1. runners
2. people going for the healer
3. the mob about to kill the warrior (ie warrior dropped to less than 20% life)
you are best to remember their names so you can back out of any party that has them inside.
ps. sometimes the rogue is overgeared for the instance and is looking for a specific drop..
at that point ignore him. he can probably solo any single trash mob in that instance and the warrior has no hope of gaining aggro on the targeted mob for more than 2-4 seconds anyway.
I've run sl and some other places looking for specific drops with my pre kara character. at that point most of the tanks are running for the first few times and have no hope of catching up to my aggro unless I keep spamming feint each time it's up.
Um... I guess I'm one of those "mouth-breathing, inbred, short-bus rogues" as Demea puts it.
I'm a combat swords rogue. When in 5 man instances (acutally WHENEVER I fight a mob), I always open with Cheap shot.
But you know why? Not because I'm stupid. Not because I think it's l33t. I actually thought it was a good thing.
See, to me, Cheap shotting did 2 things. One, it gave me 2 free combo points. Two, my thinking was that if the mob is stunned it's not hitting the tank. Not hitting the tank means he is taking less damage and the healer is also wasting less mp.
I'm lvl 63 now, and have done it that way in all the instances I've run and have never had ANYONE tell me to do differently, so I assumed I was doing ok.
I guess I wasn't doing the "correct" thing, but ya know what? I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one who doesn't know this. Ya learn something new every day.
I'm a combat swords rogue. When in 5 man instances (acutally WHENEVER I fight a mob), I always open with Cheap shot.
But you know why? Not because I'm stupid. Not because I think it's l33t. I actually thought it was a good thing.
See, to me, Cheap shotting did 2 things. One, it gave me 2 free combo points. Two, my thinking was that if the mob is stunned it's not hitting the tank. Not hitting the tank means he is taking less damage and the healer is also wasting less mp.
I'm lvl 63 now, and have done it that way in all the instances I've run and have never had ANYONE tell me to do differently, so I assumed I was doing ok.
I guess I wasn't doing the "correct" thing, but ya know what? I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one who doesn't know this. Ya learn something new every day.
To clarify, as mentioned before, opening with Cheap Shot is not a stun lock. Stun lock would constitute anything to completely shut a mob down throughout the battle, or:
CS>Mutilate>Kidney Shot>Mutilate>Mutilate or CS>SSX3>Kidney Shot
and burning every and any stun you have whenever it is available.
As a mutilate rogue, I can see where this would be a force of habit, but after reading the boards here and understanding how threat and rage generation work, I have gotten in the steady habit of opening with Garrote, Mutilating and hitting rupture instead of KS. The best thing you can do for the rogue player that keeps stunning is politely tell them how their rotation is messing up the group and be the better man. If they continue, then feel justified to relieve the group of their presence.
CS>Mutilate>Kidney Shot>Mutilate>Mutilate or CS>SSX3>Kidney Shot
and burning every and any stun you have whenever it is available.
As a mutilate rogue, I can see where this would be a force of habit, but after reading the boards here and understanding how threat and rage generation work, I have gotten in the steady habit of opening with Garrote, Mutilating and hitting rupture instead of KS. The best thing you can do for the rogue player that keeps stunning is politely tell them how their rotation is messing up the group and be the better man. If they continue, then feel justified to relieve the group of their presence.
ive just about stopped using evic and envenom in group fights with warriors, cept as a death blow. I just use dots and keep my slice up. Works.
As a muta rogue I can't do that specialy with a 32% crit rate. I always have enough cp going that I can keep up 4-5 point S&D, 4-5 point rupture and have enough time to tap a 4-5 point evis or envenom. or if it's druid and paladin tanks, I can keep a 4-5 point expose armor running instead.
anzalover wrote:
See, to me, Cheap shotting did 2 things. One, it gave me 2 free combo points. Two, my thinking was that if the mob is stunned it's not hitting the tank. Not hitting the tank means he is taking less damage and the healer is also wasting less mp.
Not hitting the tank means they're generating less rage. This is the most important to a tank at the beginning of a fight.
I use CS when soloing but garrote when in a group. Garrote will increase your dps and as combat you should have imp SnD anyways. It's not a big deal really but it can help the lesser tanks.
Ok. That makes since. I'm still fairly new to the game and didn't know how the tanks abilities worked.
I come from FFXI and the tanks generated hate by using their special abilities and hitting the monster. They actually LOST hate by getting hit.
I guess this is where my thinking comes from. But, from now on, I'll use garrote in instances and such. Thanks for the info
I come from FFXI and the tanks generated hate by using their special abilities and hitting the monster. They actually LOST hate by getting hit.
I guess this is where my thinking comes from. But, from now on, I'll use garrote in instances and such. Thanks for the info
I usually opens with Cheap Shot, bt only on thrash mobs that will die to quick for my garrote to wear off.
On boss fights or pulls with more than 4 mobs, I open with garrote.
On boss fights or pulls with more than 4 mobs, I open with garrote.
3 posts
Im not a stat junky by any means but i would be surprised if WoWs threat system wasnt the same as most of the MMORPGs out there where, all else being equal, each hit the mob gets on the tank lowers his threat level. This would eventually tip the scales away from the tank holding agro. I know thats a concept most players are familiar with but im beginning to belive not all players. There sure are a hell of alot of variables when it comes to threat distribution.
Im also personally not a fan of feint in typical group situations, anything that uses energy and doesnt either getcha CPs or do some dmg is a waste.
Im also personally not a fan of feint in typical group situations, anything that uses energy and doesnt either getcha CPs or do some dmg is a waste.
sweadog wrote:
Im not a stat junky by any means but i would be surprised if WoWs threat system wasnt the same as most of the MMORPGs out there where, all else being equal, each hit the mob gets on the tank lowers his threat level. This would eventually tip the scales away from the tank holding agro. I know thats a concept most players are familiar with but im beginning to belive not all players. There sure are a hell of alot of variables when it comes to threat distribution.
Im also personally not a fan of feint in typical group situations, anything that uses energy and doesnt either getcha CPs or do some dmg is a waste.
Im also personally not a fan of feint in typical group situations, anything that uses energy and doesnt either getcha CPs or do some dmg is a waste.
Necro posting is bad m'kay?
Especially with junk like that!
devzzz, Assassin Reject wrote:
sweadog wrote:
Im not a stat junky by any means but i would be surprised if WoWs threat system wasnt the same as most of the MMORPGs out there where, all else being equal, each hit the mob gets on the tank lowers his threat level. This would eventually tip the scales away from the tank holding agro. I know thats a concept most players are familiar with but im beginning to belive not all players. There sure are a hell of alot of variables when it comes to threat distribution.
Im also personally not a fan of feint in typical group situations, anything that uses energy and doesnt either getcha CPs or do some dmg is a waste.
Im also personally not a fan of feint in typical group situations, anything that uses energy and doesnt either getcha CPs or do some dmg is a waste.
Necro posting is bad m'kay?
Especially with junk like that!
LOL @ devzzz =)
Warrior rage is built on both hitting and getting hit, and it is this rage that allows them to use their threat generating abilities. A warrior without rage is soon to be an offtank.
Edited, Dec 14th 2007 8:20am by AtrophyGFour
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