I've come over to the Mage forums looking for some information. I'm an SV spec Hunter, and I've just recently started running Heroics with some people I've been running non-heroic level 70 content with for several weeks. Included in our rag-tag bunch is a Frost Mage, and he's getting mightily frustrated with me.
There are two things of concern to me, and I can't really speak to him about it because I don't know nearly enough about mages to have a valid perspective. The concerns are around managing threat and use of AoE.
For Hunters, threat management is pretty straightforward. When we get close to the tank's threat line, Feign Death to clear threat and then start fresh. Only in the longest of fights do we need to do this more than once or twice. So far as I know, Mages have no such option to dump threat, so threat management for them seems probably a little more tricky.
As far as AoE goes, anything that does damage to a mob in a Freeze Trap will break the trap. In this particular case, I think if our Frost Mage hears, "Don't break my traps!" over Vent one more time after he uses Frost Nova, he's going to try very hard to reach through his monitor and throttle me. The trouble seems to stem from one of two situations: either we're fighting in close quarters and I'm limited to where I can place my traps without either putting myself in the dead zone relative the tank mob (ie. I can't shoot at all) or backing myself into a wall where I'm going to take a couple of hits before the mob gets into my trap. In non-heroic instances, this was rarely an issue...I could take a couple of hits no problem. In Heroic instances, two hits is often enough to kill me. If one of them (much less both) happens to be a crit, I'm pretty much a goner. The other is when the Mage has been moving around a lot and seems to forget about my traps when he busts off a Frost Nova.
The two kind of play off one another. He's complained in the past that it's hard to manage threat when you get a bunch of back-to-back crits. I can accept that. Unfortunately, his instant response when he pulls aggro off the tank is to Frost Nova. He doesn't stop to think that he's already been bouncing around the field like a madman and gone too close to my trapped mob. He'll forget to keep an eye on his sheeped mob and when it breaks out of sheep and goes after him, he runs around trying to resheep it and when he gives up trying to get the cast off...Frost Nova.
I'm doing my concerted best to place my traps where they're the least likely to find themselves in range of the next knee-jerk Frost Nova, but sometimes my options are very limited. It seems to me like the situation would be much better if he had some better strategies for managing threat and was able to keep a closer eye on his sheeped mobs (and target them quickly to resheep them easier) so that he spent less time in run-around-panicked mode breaking my traps and more time blasting out the dps.
Any ideas for threat management? Addons that might be helpful for this sort of thing? Experiences with Huntards that blame mages for breaking their traps when it was actually the Huntard that could have been doing something differently?
Thanks in advance for your input.
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If this is occuring very often, the mage needs to learn to not frost nova by learning not to pull aggro and by watching the sheep more.
Simple answer, stop pulling aggro from the tank. It's just that easy. He needs to learn to play better. If he cannot do it that way, make him respec 50 points into arcane and spam AM only. It's the lowest threat tree. Alternatively, if you run with a paladin, make him get Salv. Either way, his playing skill is a problem here(if he pulls aggro more than once in a 5 man, either he or the tank is doing something seriously wrong).
I don't remember it off the top of my head, but there's a macro you can make to focus a mob and then only have to hit that button to resheep. Just recast it every 3-4 frostbolts and that'll nearly ensure no issues with the sheep running wild.
AureliusSir wrote:
He's complained in the past that it's hard to manage threat when you get a bunch of back-to-back crits. I can accept that. Unfortunately, his instant response when he pulls aggro off the tank is to Frost Nova.
Simple answer, stop pulling aggro from the tank. It's just that easy. He needs to learn to play better. If he cannot do it that way, make him respec 50 points into arcane and spam AM only. It's the lowest threat tree. Alternatively, if you run with a paladin, make him get Salv. Either way, his playing skill is a problem here(if he pulls aggro more than once in a 5 man, either he or the tank is doing something seriously wrong).
AureliusSir wrote:
He'll forget to keep an eye on his sheeped mob and when it breaks out of sheep and goes after him, he runs around trying to resheep it and when he gives up trying to get the cast off...Frost Nova.
I don't remember it off the top of my head, but there's a macro you can make to focus a mob and then only have to hit that button to resheep. Just recast it every 3-4 frostbolts and that'll nearly ensure no issues with the sheep running wild.
and there is a pretty big aggro dump... although it is a bit annoying invisibility works great.
Aurelius, is there a way you could post his spec for us(I understand if you don't want to post his armory, but info on his spec could be useful)?
The One and Only Poldaran wrote:
If this is occuring very often, the mage needs to learn to not frost nova by learning not to pull aggro and by watching the sheep more.
He seems to break my traps repeatedly throughout any given run. He was complaining to the Warrior we run with that he's getting fed up with me busting his balls over breaking my traps, but after a while it gets to the point where I feel like saying, "OK, your Frost Nova just saved your ***, but it put mine directly into the fire."
Quote:
Simple answer, stop pulling aggro from the tank. It's just that easy. He needs to learn to play better. If he cannot do it that way, make him respec 50 points into arcane and spam AM only. It's the lowest threat tree. Alternatively, if you run with a paladin, make him get Salv. Either way, his playing skill is a problem here(if he pulls aggro more than once in a 5 man, either he or the tank is doing something seriously wrong).
For a Mage, is the best option to manage threat to simply stop casting when you approach the tank's threat line? I appreciate the way you worded your response, because I'm wanting to help him if I can. He gets a little on the defensive side if even another mage tries to offer him tips on how he can improve. Overall, I don't think he's a bad player...it's just that we're getting into Heroics now and we're finding out very, very quickly that the margin for error is either very small or non-existant.
The damage meter is turning out to be one of his worst enemies. We often run with a PUG 5th member and damage meters (the Warrior in our group and I both run one) are a wonderful tool for helping to evaluate the performance of that extra person for helping to determine if we should invite them back at a later time for another run. Unfortunately, the damage meter consistantly shows him at 15-30% below me + my pet, and also consistantly shows him as having taken 2-3 times more damage than me. If he's allowing his ego to get involved, he's between a rock and a hard place. If he tries to increase his damage, he's also going to increase his damage taken.
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I don't remember it off the top of my head, but there's a macro you can make to focus a mob and then only have to hit that button to resheep. Just recast it every 3-4 frostbolts and that'll nearly ensure no issues with the sheep running wild.
Can you think of any addons for mages off the top of your head that help with that sort of thing? I've got a timer addon for Hunters that displays bars for each of my active abilities (ie. primed traps, active traps, etc.) so I have a clear, visual indicator on-screen as to when certain things are about to wear off/expire. I'm not sure if something like that would help him keep track of his sheeped mobs (or if he'd even install the addon), but I'd rather approach him from the perspective of trying to help as opposed to just being critical and leaving the problem in his lap to deal with.
Anobix wrote:
and there is a pretty big aggro dump... although it is a bit annoying invisibility works great.
We were actually talking about using invisibility (albeit in a different scenario earlier tonight). Could you tell me a bit more about how it might be used to manage threat?
AureliusSir wrote:
Can you think of any addons for mages off the top of your head that help with that sort of thing?
AureliusSir wrote:
I'm not sure if something like that would help him keep track of his sheeped mobs
Cryolysis has timers, IIRC. But, tbh, I find them more of a detriment as mobs will heartbeat resist much too often for the timer to actually tell you when it's gonna break.
Being too addon dependent can be a problem later on.
I know someone knows how to make the macro(I'll see if I can dig it up without too much effort) and I'd imagine that proper usage of it would help with that part of the issue at least.
AureliusSir wrote:
Anobix wrote:
and there is a pretty big aggro dump... although it is a bit annoying invisibility works great.
We were actually talking about using invisibility (albeit in a different scenario earlier tonight). Could you tell me a bit more about how it might be used to manage threat?
Invisibility is kind of like Feign Death. But it takes a few seconds from when it is cast to go to threat wipe. It has to be used as an active ability, not a reactive one(the best hunters I know use Feign Death the same way...before they pull aggro).
The One and Only Poldaran wrote:
Aurelius, is there a way you could post his spec for us(I understand if you don't want to post his armory, but info on his spec could be useful)?
His current spec is 17/0/44.
AureliusSir wrote:
The One and Only Poldaran wrote:
Aurelius, is there a way you could post his spec for us(I understand if you don't want to post his armory, but info on his spec could be useful)?
His current spec is 17/0/44.
Well, if he's the cookie cutter version of that, then he really just needs to learn to watch his damn threat. And to Iceblock instead of Frost Nova.
Another interesting option, if you get fed up enough, is to start breaking his sheep everytime he breaks a trap.
Edited, Oct 27th 2007 2:21am by Poldaran
The One and Only Poldaran wrote:
[quote=AureliusSir]Well, if he's the cookie cutter version of that, then he really just needs to learn to watch his damn threat. And to Iceblock instead of Frost Nova.
Another interesting option, if you get fed up enough, is to start breaking his sheep everytime he breaks a trap.
Another interesting option, if you get fed up enough, is to start breaking his sheep everytime he breaks a trap.
I LOL'd.
Heeeere, sheepy sheepy sheepy...
Any good Mage should know that because Frost Trap is on cooldown then it should not be broken. But if you are up against a specific group that needs to be AoE'd then your responsibilty as Hunter is to get the mob out of AoE range before trapping it. You should alwasy be able to pull back from where you have just come as that area will most likely be clear. This can get a little difficult if you are doing a "boss run" and therefore not clearing all mobs thereby reducing you area to move around in. But hell yeah if he is really annoying you then break his sheep with a rank 1 spell, see how he likes it.
If this frost mage is pulling aggo off the tank, how does he do it? A frost mage is pretty much just frostbolt spam. Does he pull aggro off the tank immediately (e.g. not waiting for the tank to get aggro), or does he pull aggro off the tank by attacking non-tank-targeted targets?
If he is pulling aggro off the tank in general, the tank is not doing a good job of generating threat, and that needs to be addressed, unless the mage far outgears the tank.
If he *really* wants to do great damage without regard to threat, follow Pol's advice and go full arcane and do arcane missile spam. It'll run him out of mana quickly, but will also do a truckload of damage at 40% reduced threat.
The mechanics of invisibility are as follows, IIRC: 9% aggro drop per second for 5 seconds, then you go invisible and wipe threat completely.
Ice block instead of frost nova is probably a good idea around ice trapped targets.
All in all, it sounds like the damage meters, and you beating him on them, is the *real* issue, making the mage ride the threatline way too much. The macro that Pol was talking about sets the focus target to the sheep and then you can resheep without ever moving your target back to the sheeped target.
This is from wowwiki.
If he is pulling aggro off the tank in general, the tank is not doing a good job of generating threat, and that needs to be addressed, unless the mage far outgears the tank.
If he *really* wants to do great damage without regard to threat, follow Pol's advice and go full arcane and do arcane missile spam. It'll run him out of mana quickly, but will also do a truckload of damage at 40% reduced threat.
The mechanics of invisibility are as follows, IIRC: 9% aggro drop per second for 5 seconds, then you go invisible and wipe threat completely.
Ice block instead of frost nova is probably a good idea around ice trapped targets.
All in all, it sounds like the damage meters, and you beating him on them, is the *real* issue, making the mage ride the threatline way too much. The macro that Pol was talking about sets the focus target to the sheep and then you can resheep without ever moving your target back to the sheeped target.
Quote:
#show Polymorph
/clearfocus [modifier:shift]
/focus [target=focus,noexists]; [target=focus,dead]
/clearfocus [target=focus,help]
/stopcasting
/cast [target=focus,exists,harm] Polymorph; Polymorph
/clearfocus [modifier:shift]
/focus [target=focus,noexists]; [target=focus,dead]
/clearfocus [target=focus,help]
/stopcasting
/cast [target=focus,exists,harm] Polymorph; Polymorph
This is from wowwiki.
1. He has to have a threat meter and use it!
2. He has to pay attention to the sheep.
3. He has to give priority to your trap as Polymorph is not on a CD, while your Frost trap is.
He has Iceblock and Mage shield.
If you feign death because he broke your trap, isnt that mob going to go for the closest threat pile, the mage? (not sure here how that works exactly)
And if his sheep brakes in the first place, doesnt that make the tanks job more difficult, running around to grab that mob?
From what you are saying it sounds like his sheep brakes quite often. That should not happen (key word:often) with any at least decent mage.
2. He has to pay attention to the sheep.
3. He has to give priority to your trap as Polymorph is not on a CD, while your Frost trap is.
He has Iceblock and Mage shield.
If you feign death because he broke your trap, isnt that mob going to go for the closest threat pile, the mage? (not sure here how that works exactly)
And if his sheep brakes in the first place, doesnt that make the tanks job more difficult, running around to grab that mob?
From what you are saying it sounds like his sheep brakes quite often. That should not happen (key word:often) with any at least decent mage.
Amaiya the Tulip wrote:
From what you are saying it sounds like his sheep brakes quite often. That should not happen (key word:often) with any at least decent mage.
You know, that made me think of another point. The mage may need some more spell hit.
Addons for threat management?
KLH Threat Meter (known as KTM), or Omen.
However, these only work with other people who have KTM or Omen, so both the tank and the Frost Mage need to have them to work.
These are largely accurate threatmeters that help a person see when they're getting near or over the tank's aggro on a target. Using one of these addons, when the frost mage sees that his aggro is going over the tank's (he has up until 130% of the tank's threat), he should stop casting, or cast lower-threat, lower-damage spells, or use the time to resheep any sheeps before it's safe to bust out the DPS again.
If it's too much of a bother for both the tank and the frost mage to get Omen (or perhaps they're addon-purists, or their computers can barely handle anything else running on WoW), then we could also work on the Frost Mage's reaction to pulling aggro. Frost Nova should be third on the list, after Ice Barrier and Ice Block. If he pulls aggro, he should Ice Barrier and do nothing that would gain him more aggro, and it might be a good idea to run towards the tank. If aggro isn't taken from him and it looks like the mage is going to die, then it's time to Ice Block. After Ice Block, no mob should be trying to shred him.
If it's a boss fight, ***** the Ice Barrier and go for the Ice Block, and then once you get out of Ice Block, use Invisibility.
Invisibility works like this:
You press the button, and for 5 seconds, you are transparent.
For each second that you are like this, you lose a percentage of your aggro (I think I read 9% each second?).
If you are attacked or you do any actions (Start casting, try to use an item), Invisibility is removed and only the amount of seconds that passed by amounts to how much threat is lost.
If the 5-second Invisibility part is not broken, you will actually go Invisible for up to 20 seconds, where you have no more aggro and are out of combat (except for boss fights). You cannot see any enemy mobs except those that can see invisible players, and those that are invisible themselves. No one can see you except the very same type of players (can see Invisible, are Invisible). Party members also can see you, and you can see them.
Basically, when in Invisibility, you can only see those who can see you.
Once you're in the real 20-second Invisibility, cancel it by right-clicking the debuff or using some instant cast non-targeted spell, and get back into the action.
Uh, and last bits:
Invisibility can be used actively if having KTM/Omen, or reactively after Ice Block after a pull.
Frost Nova should be used to save someone else's ***, like the healer's, in groups. Maybe he may want to Blink first before Ice Barrier or something when he's getting attacked.
Your Freezing Trap should have priority over his Sheep. You didn't do anything wrong from the description. The Frost Mage should know how to play better, but anyway, this above is how he should at least cover his *** if he is slow to learn how to play better.
KLH Threat Meter (known as KTM), or Omen.
However, these only work with other people who have KTM or Omen, so both the tank and the Frost Mage need to have them to work.
These are largely accurate threatmeters that help a person see when they're getting near or over the tank's aggro on a target. Using one of these addons, when the frost mage sees that his aggro is going over the tank's (he has up until 130% of the tank's threat), he should stop casting, or cast lower-threat, lower-damage spells, or use the time to resheep any sheeps before it's safe to bust out the DPS again.
If it's too much of a bother for both the tank and the frost mage to get Omen (or perhaps they're addon-purists, or their computers can barely handle anything else running on WoW), then we could also work on the Frost Mage's reaction to pulling aggro. Frost Nova should be third on the list, after Ice Barrier and Ice Block. If he pulls aggro, he should Ice Barrier and do nothing that would gain him more aggro, and it might be a good idea to run towards the tank. If aggro isn't taken from him and it looks like the mage is going to die, then it's time to Ice Block. After Ice Block, no mob should be trying to shred him.
If it's a boss fight, ***** the Ice Barrier and go for the Ice Block, and then once you get out of Ice Block, use Invisibility.
Invisibility works like this:
You press the button, and for 5 seconds, you are transparent.
For each second that you are like this, you lose a percentage of your aggro (I think I read 9% each second?).
If you are attacked or you do any actions (Start casting, try to use an item), Invisibility is removed and only the amount of seconds that passed by amounts to how much threat is lost.
If the 5-second Invisibility part is not broken, you will actually go Invisible for up to 20 seconds, where you have no more aggro and are out of combat (except for boss fights). You cannot see any enemy mobs except those that can see invisible players, and those that are invisible themselves. No one can see you except the very same type of players (can see Invisible, are Invisible). Party members also can see you, and you can see them.
Basically, when in Invisibility, you can only see those who can see you.
Once you're in the real 20-second Invisibility, cancel it by right-clicking the debuff or using some instant cast non-targeted spell, and get back into the action.
Uh, and last bits:
Invisibility can be used actively if having KTM/Omen, or reactively after Ice Block after a pull.
Frost Nova should be used to save someone else's ***, like the healer's, in groups. Maybe he may want to Blink first before Ice Barrier or something when he's getting attacked.
Your Freezing Trap should have priority over his Sheep. You didn't do anything wrong from the description. The Frost Mage should know how to play better, but anyway, this above is how he should at least cover his *** if he is slow to learn how to play better.
to put this gently... he sucks and needs to l2 play. (I'm not normaly this much of a D!ck)
I've grouped with countless mages that never stole my aggro and when they did (if they did) they never broke the other CC'd mobs.
How to fix said Mage: ask him if he HAS Ice Block tell him that it is the mage buble in the frost tree (that should get his attention) if he doesn't help him get the gold to use it.
I't sounds like he is using solo tactics in group. obvoiusly that doesn't work in Heroics and often not in normal dungons.
What you can do:
1. Pull your mob WAY behine the group and angle the camrea to watche the fight from behind the mobs the tank is fighting (you should see the backs of the tanks targets idealy) so you can see your frost trap.
2. Set a frost trap right next to said mob as soon as you can after you trap him the 1st time. This keep the mob from jumping into your **** as soon as he breaks trap.
with the extra space and some L2 play on the mages part your group should be good.
I've grouped with countless mages that never stole my aggro and when they did (if they did) they never broke the other CC'd mobs.
How to fix said Mage: ask him if he HAS Ice Block tell him that it is the mage buble in the frost tree (that should get his attention) if he doesn't help him get the gold to use it.
I't sounds like he is using solo tactics in group. obvoiusly that doesn't work in Heroics and often not in normal dungons.
What you can do:
1. Pull your mob WAY behine the group and angle the camrea to watche the fight from behind the mobs the tank is fighting (you should see the backs of the tanks targets idealy) so you can see your frost trap.
2. Set a frost trap right next to said mob as soon as you can after you trap him the 1st time. This keep the mob from jumping into your **** as soon as he breaks trap.
with the extra space and some L2 play on the mages part your group should be good.
Just a follow up...the mage ended up respeccing Arcane today (40/21/0 if I remember correctly). I didn't even get that far with him in terms of passing along some of the suggestions here. I didn't want to deluge him with a mountain of recommended adjustments to his spec/playstyle...I didn't think that would go over very well. I did mention to him about using Invisibility to dump threat. Between that and his spec change, I'm hoping that will solve a number of problems. If he keeps breaking my traps with Frost Nova, however, I might have to approach the situation directly. There are enough mobs in Heroic dungeons that are immune to whatever CC we normally have at our disposal as it is...breaking the ones that aren't immune is just going to hold us back (and multiply my repair bills astronomically). He probably won't like it, but there's no point going into a Heroic dungeon if people are going to continue making mistakes that pull the whole run in jeopardy.
if he's always pulling agro you just need to drop him untill he learns to control it. If the guy doesn't have KTM or Omen then drop him till he gets it. As far as his inabilty to resheep he needs to get naturenemy castbar mod. It will put a timer on his sheep that he can see and resheep when needed.
If he doesn't do these things to help out everyone else he has no place in groups. If you continue to let him run with you guys and keep messing up your just allowing him to get better gear and move up to more difficult runs and raids.
For the sake of everyone else on your server drop him unless he learns how to play.
If he doesn't do these things to help out everyone else he has no place in groups. If you continue to let him run with you guys and keep messing up your just allowing him to get better gear and move up to more difficult runs and raids.
For the sake of everyone else on your server drop him unless he learns how to play.
Quote:
to put this gently... he sucks and needs to l2 play.
That leaves me wondering what harshly would be? ;-)
ktangent wrote:
Quote:
to put this gently... he sucks and needs to l2 play.
That leaves me wondering what harshly would be? ;-)
If I was being harsh, I'd say that the person sucks and fails at life. But that's just me.
I guess in these cases, unless the person is an idiot and a jerk in addition to playing poorly, I'd not defame his/her character. Look to help the person improve and you can possibly gain a good raiding mage, flame/defame/destroy the other's ego and they just think you're an asshat and won't listen to you ever again.
If his mana pool can keep up, he is going to love his new spec. Spamming AM is the easiest thing a mage can do:
1) Even with mediocre gear, it does a truckload of dmg.
2) With arcane talents, arcane threat is reduced 40%. w00t!
If he continues to pull agro while spamming AM, either your tank needs to visit the appropriate forum here (war, drood, pally) and up his game or your mage has sick, sick gear.
For my part, I rarely FN when I pull agro (which I rarely do anyway b/c, IMHO, I rule). Perhaps I've been spoiled by attentive healers, but before I know it I've got a priest shield on me and I'm running to give the tank a big hug. The only time I FN is when the healers pulls agro (especially on those monster pulls in Shattered) and I can't smack the mob hard enough, quick enough to get him to come after me. In that case, it's tough luck hunterdude if I break your trap--you and I place a distant second to the healer in terms of survival priority.
Regarding resheeping--Poldaran brings up a good point, as always. It's easy to become dependent on those timer addons. You'd rather have a mage that is in the habit of swinging his camera around to check his sheep every couple of casts. The focus macro is a MUST. Sheeping is non-directional, meaning you don't even have to face your target to cast, and the mana cost is de minimis, so spamming the /cast [target=focus] Polymorph: Sheep macro should not be a problem. The mage should be setting his focus as the leader marks the targets.
1) Even with mediocre gear, it does a truckload of dmg.
2) With arcane talents, arcane threat is reduced 40%. w00t!
If he continues to pull agro while spamming AM, either your tank needs to visit the appropriate forum here (war, drood, pally) and up his game or your mage has sick, sick gear.
For my part, I rarely FN when I pull agro (which I rarely do anyway b/c, IMHO, I rule). Perhaps I've been spoiled by attentive healers, but before I know it I've got a priest shield on me and I'm running to give the tank a big hug. The only time I FN is when the healers pulls agro (especially on those monster pulls in Shattered) and I can't smack the mob hard enough, quick enough to get him to come after me. In that case, it's tough luck hunterdude if I break your trap--you and I place a distant second to the healer in terms of survival priority.
Regarding resheeping--Poldaran brings up a good point, as always. It's easy to become dependent on those timer addons. You'd rather have a mage that is in the habit of swinging his camera around to check his sheep every couple of casts. The focus macro is a MUST. Sheeping is non-directional, meaning you don't even have to face your target to cast, and the mana cost is de minimis, so spamming the /cast [target=focus] Polymorph: Sheep macro should not be a problem. The mage should be setting his focus as the leader marks the targets.
PS...what's the opposite of a karma bomb? Cuz this thread seems to be getting lotsa that love.
Quote:
(which I rarely do anyway b/c, IMHO, I rule)
(which I rarely do anyway b/c, IMO, I rule)
FTFY.
AynLoD wrote:
PS...what's the opposite of a karma bomb?
This.
Though, technically, I don't know that this involves baseless rateups as the term is defined.
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