Sometimes Having Trouble Holding Threat...Follow

Note that I don't exactly have a high end warrior right now (slowly levelling as I am duoing with a RL friend and we can only get on together sparingly due to hectic schedules), so what I say may not be completely correct, but I think I'm close:

Between defiance, focused rage, 1H Spec, and cruelty your spec isn't hindering threat production. As for your gear...I dont have a high-end tank yet, but shouldn't you have some hit rating? Against a boss, you're going to have an 8.75% chance to miss with your current setup. Which is a pretty good chance to not generate rage OR threat.

However, what you are doing seems to encompass the high threat abilities, except maybe TC (unless you're talking about multimob pulls). There shouldn't be too much issues there.

Couple more things...while you consider yourself "well geared"...you have no purples. I've done an instance on my hunter (granted it was non-heroic mana tombs) with some WELL GEARED tanks, we're talking one was a warrior in full T5 and the other a druid in full T6. They had no blues at all. If you're pugging with people who are in epic DPS gear you will probably have a problem holding threat. So, for what you're doing (I'm assuming level 70 5-mans and/or heroics) you're geared all right from what I can tell, but if you're dealing with peope in gear designed to start hyjal with you're not gonna hold aggro unless they hold way back.

Last, try paying attention to who pulls aggro. Let's say you're grouped with a rogue, mage, and hunter for DPS. If it's always the hunter's pet, ask him if growl is on (my main is a hunter, I sometimes forget after I off-tank to turn growl off). If it's always the rogue, ask him to hold off a bit or to make more use of feint, etc. If it's the rogue one pull, the hunter the next, and the mage on the next pull find out what their gear level is, and if it's similar to yours. Chances are if it's one of them, it's their fault - but if it's all of them, it's your fault.

Most of the abilities he should be using aren't based on weapon speed, IIRC. Revenge is a set damage, shield slam's based on shield stats, even if he uses heroic strike that's on-next hit with no CD (meaning weapon speed wont affect it). Really the only abilities a warrior has that ARE affected by weapon speed:
-Mortal Strike (he wont have)
-Overpower
-Slam
-Cleave
-Whirlwind
-Devastate

But...he shouldn't be using most of those, especially slam, OP, and WW while tanking (I use cleave at lower levels to hold threat on 2 mobs). Devastate is about the only one he should be using, and that has a low coefficient to weapon damage (50%). So weapon speed shouldn't be too important here.

Get a KTM, and tell everyone else to get it too. That way you and everyone else can pay attention to the threat. This is what I usually do to keep aggro on a single target:

1) Bloodrage
2) Taunt (because it makes it easier not to loose the target if someone decides to open fire before sunders are applied)
3) Apply 5 sunders
4) Spam Devestate (or heroic strike)
5) Pop a revenge every now and then whilst spamming devestate

Sounds good so far, When I said "Well geared" I guess I mean compared to many 70's I play with who are still using low 60's blues and mid level greens. Though it seems only people I lose aggro to is a dagger specced rogue w/ two epic daggers, a feral druid in cat form, and an occasional Mage. Its never the healer or other dps'ers. Thanks for the tip on the weapon speed. I didnt know that it didnt really affect me when I was tanking. Im gonna have to start working on getting a new tank weapon. Im thinking Grom'Tor's Charge. But if what I understand is correct I'm doing everything that I should be doing and the dps might be going a bit overboard. Am I right in thinking that if the dps spams everything they have that a tank, no matter how good, will still have a difficult time holding aggro? I really appreciate the advice so far, any gear upgrade suggestions would be much appreciated.

Skribs brings up a very good point, and I'd like to add with my own experience

Armory Link:
http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Nathrezim&n=Wolfgang

Talent wise, I'll comment per tree
Arms: Perfect for heroics/raids, but could use a slight improvement if you are doing regular instances. I found (before I specced for kara) that if I got improved heroic strike, I could sometimes throw it on if I had an excess of rage (which is all the time for some heroics and raids, hence not needing the rage reduction)

Fury: Improved Demo shout seems to be a waste, as you can put the 2 points somewhere else. Cruelty is a must though if you can squeeze it in.

Protection: Scrap improved Shield wall first and foremost. This is personal preference, but the 6% loss on Imp Defensive stance isn't needed for 5 mans, so you can stand to scrap that for 3 more points. While your defense isn't yet 490, only put as many points into anticipation to get 490 rating (uncrittable). Improved Sunder can help throw the 5 on, making it easier to get to devastate (which will replace Sunder in 2.3) Tactical Mastery is Awesome, and if you can fit in improved blood rage, go for it. Also, Improved Revenge is nice for it's stun.

My suggested build:
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=LA0cZZfEtsI0zcxst

I scrapped cruelty, as to me it seems more important to be able to spam those sunders early, and to get the heroics off for the extra threat if you can sneak them in. Once you get enough gear that you're at 490 defense withtout anticipation, you can throw those 5 onto cruely, or get rid of heroic strike/sunder if you're on raids or heroics.

Gear wise: Armour is nice, health is nice, but Avoidance should try to be maximized if you can. The stickied topic on the forums here is a great resource for hunting for gear, and might help.

Past that, Omen/KTM would be a wise thing to have if you do guild 5 mans, because you can easily get the hunters to feign death, the rogues to faint/vanish, and the ice mages to ice block if they can.

Here is my rotation below.

1) Blood Rage (for rage)
1) Ranged Pull
2) Shield block (I forget the name, but good for 1 block. Procs revenge)
3) Revenge
4) T clap
5) Sunder (I ask DPS to hold of until they see the first sunder stack)
6) 5xSunders, Shield Slam, Shield Block, Revenge, Demo Shout as applicable.
7) Devistate Spam after 5 sunders stack.

Regardless of how good your rotation is though, A good(or bad) dps should be able to pull it if they want to.

Rule of thumb is: If the tank dies, its the healers fault. If the healer dies, Its the tanks fault. If DPS dies its there own aggro grabing fault.

The best rotation that I've found (assuming prot specced) is this (let's assume 2-3 mobs):

1. Pull
2. Bloodrage (it provides a very small amount of aggro, so it's a little more guaranteed that they'll all go for you, rather than someone else, making it better after the pull
3. Thunder clap (when they're all in range), which keeps everything on you through initial heal-aggro and such, and with them all attacking you you should get rage pretty quickly
4. Shield slam
5.demo shout/T. clap
6. Sunder (or shield slam if it's cooldown's up)

Shield block isn't on the GCD, so that can be tossed in at any time. Usually I'll just replace a sunder with a revenge when it's off cooldown.

This method, for me, allows you to get sufficient initial aggro to keep everything on you through healing aggro (and after sheeps/shackles, they should just run right back to you - you of course move away from them so that your t.clap doesn't break the CC), and for DPS to start lightly (since you'll also have a white hit or two on the mob), and you'll have enough rage to shield slam (or sunder/revenge if you aren't prot specced) as soon as the GCD let's up.

Just a note, shield slam your biggest TPR move, and as such should always have a higher priority to revenge, but on multi-mob pulls should be just lower than T.clap so that your healer doesn't die - and thus so you don't die.

As has been said, though, a good DPSer will know how hard they can go to throttle the aggro line without crossing it. Also, make sure you have a threat metre (I personally prefer Omen, but KTM works as well) and try to get the DPS and healers to get one, too.

Edit: I should also point out, which I forgot to when I first made this post, that when I'm tanking multiple mobs I only use demo shout if I either know or see that I'm (going to) taking a lot of damage. Otherwise, I won't bother and instead focus on keeping my threat as high as possible. I also tend to try and toss a sunder on the other mobs during revenge/SS/T.clap cooldowns to build more threat on them.

And for single mobs (aka, bosses) I use this rotation:

1. Pull
2. Bloodrage
3. Shield slam
4. T.clap/ demo shout/ and battle/commanding shout if they're not up
5. Sunder/revenge

Then I just repeat 3-5 for the most part.

This makes it so that I get a good amount of immediate threat through the shield slam, and then immediately after go for making the mob do as little damage to me as possible (and since T.clap is more effective than demo shout, I use that first). I then work on the sunders so I can get to my max threat output, making sure that my debuffs and buffs stay up, and that revenge/SS are always cooling down.

Edited, Nov 2nd 2007 8:27am by Taeraq

Yes, any DPS CAN pull off the tank. I was doing regular mana tombs on my mid-high 60's hunter (was probably between 65 and 68 at the time), and I pulled aggro off a single target a warrior in full T5 was tanking. Granted, I TRIED to pull aggro off, but I still did.

A certian part of Blood furnace made me glad I had Imp Taunt. Heading to the last boss. Down the ramp, there's the two groups of mobs. 2 fel guards things and the 1 caster.

CC the caster. or kill it. Then it's the big guys turn. Well they lose aggro every 3 seconds. No matter what Sunders or H. Strikes or Revenges you have on them. They'll charge a clothie. I used Taunt many O'times there.

I also like having the lower CD on it. Do I use it all the time? lol, no. Am I glad I have it handy when I do need it.. you bet. Oh and 90% of my parties (until I get heroic keys) are PUGs. We all know how some PUGs go with DPS and jumping the gun on the full DPS starting. It's a ace in the hole that I like to keep at the ready.

Just a personal choice on talents.

Edited, Nov 2nd 2007 2:19pm by GYFFORD