While we are telling stories....
a long time ago before TBC, (actually right before, because I had AS) I was in a LBRS run on my Human Paladin as the tank. I had a priest for a healer and I noticed that she was ONLY doing her bubble on me, no renew, no heals, just that and I would maybe get a heal if I was about to die (I died a few times just on the trip down). I told her to stop doing that, not only cause it was practically useless but because it destroyed my aggro regen.
Finally, we get to a bigger pull and we all wipe because of her healing "strategy". I start talking in party chat "Why are you only doing bubbles?!?!" her response: "Bubbles mean you don't take damage", my response: "healing means I don't die!" (and the rest of the group is agreeing with her)
So the next pull, she does that **** again, so I'm like ***** it...
We get to the next pull, I mark up a group for cc and everything, skull the main mob, wait for the hunter to pull, then pull an entirely different group with AS and then bubble hearth. Got to IF and then alt-F4 so they would think I dcd or something.
That was probably the meanest thing I have done to a group, but I really believe they deserved it for stupid behavior, and then agreeing to the stupid behavior.
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Rant - Ret in my team /wristsFollow
Maulgak wrote:
Selv: couldn't have put my feelings better than you did.
I agree, perfect.
Selverein wrote:
People who know about WoW mechanics and about what it takes to be a good end-game DPSer, or just a good DPSer at all, know that the Retribution tree is not suited for it. It is little more than a leveling tree and PvP tree. Beyond that, it's been discussed thoroughly that it is not an adequate spec for DPS purposes.
ok, maybe i'm too new to the forums or maybe i just have too strong a dependence on empirical evidence. or maybe its just my "prove the naysayers wrong" personality speaking too loudly... either way, i have missed this 'thoroughly' adequate proof that ret dps sucks. anyone have numbers or anything to convince me? or is this merely the opinion of people who are biased against the spec?
Selverein wrote:
Now, if someone rolled a Pally, out of any and all classes, to be a "leet DPSer" while he has the potential to be an absolutely awesome single-target healer or an absolutely awesome multi-mob tank, I cannot help but think he missed something somewhere. (I'll avoid the expression "retarded" here because maybe he is simply new or something... ...)
perhaps some roll ret because they are new. i rolled my first paladin (a holy one) not because paladins are the absolute best healers, but because the class fits my personality (or how i see myself). i am a strong fighter when i have a cause i believe to be true. the paladin seemed to be the class that in lore was defined by its fight for truth and light. i didn't even much care what role that put me in. i'm sure you all will call me a noob for rolling a pally because its lore was how i saw myself and not because of game mechanics.
Selverein wrote:
Sure, some people may be able to play the spec and push it to its limits.... If a player is so talented, why not make a Rogue or a Mage who is obviously better suited for the role?
well, because those classes don't fit what a ret pally wants to be. a ret pally would love some ccof course, but a mage and a rogue and a hunter are the classes blizzard blessed with dps and cc. ret pallies and feral druids are the specs blizzard decided should be dps and moderate healing/OT abilities. of course if a raid needs dps/cc then the feral/boomkin druid and ret pally may be displaced from those groups. if they can find a raid group that will take what they bring that the dps/cc classes don't (off heals/off tanking/damage aura's, etc) then the class can work well.
Selverein wrote:
Also note that the picture of the typical Ret Pally player is a kid who wants to be that invincible fighter, as powerful as a Warrior while as self-preserving as a Resto/Holy spec'd healer. In other words, the "Godly" class, which we know does not exist.
haha, yes it does.... warlock maybe?
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I hope I was kinda clear. It's a bit late and all so it may not have come out exactly like I wanted it to. Not trying to be offensive or anything, just trying to make a point.
thankyou for at least being one to be fairly calm and reasonable. i may not agree with you on this issue, but at least i can respect you for the way you present your arguements. i like a good debate and reasonable people like you make it so much more fun :)
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either way, i have missed this 'thoroughly' adequate proof that ret dps sucks.
No no no, don't misunderstand. This is actually the crucial thing: The DPS a Ret Pally can put out is, or rather should be, decent/good.
First problem is that to gear up a Ret Pally to the teeth, you have to spread your stats. You need AP/Str, Crit/Agi, SpellDmg to some extent and Int to keep you going. Other, more DPS-focused classes/specs will often have only 1-2 stats to worry about. They will thus max out their capacity much more easily.
Second problem is Ret Pallies currently have no means of reducing aggro. Sure, we got a Salv blessing, but since we can give it to everyone, it does not count in the end. As such, the Ret Pally will actually have to *refrain* from DPSing too much, which results in ineffective DPSing. Other, more DPS-focused classes/specs will not only have innate threat reduction, but also some abilities to reduce it should they crit too much or something.
Third problem is/can be that Ret Pallies rely on mana for DPS. Rogues got energy, Warrs got Rage, Mages do rely on mana too, but they have Evocation, etc. From what I've seen, it is far too easy for a Ret Pally to go all out and burn all mana far too quickly. Perhaps I'm the only one who has seen that, and perhaps that once they get better gear it stops being an issue, but meh.
This was the point of most, if not all, Ret Pally raid DPS discussions. Ret Pallies *could* do it, if threat was not an issue. And they have very little to often to raid members as there are usually a few Pallies of different specs already. Not gonna go over this again thoroughly, just check the other "Ret" threads in the last few pages.
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perhaps some roll ret because they are new.
Yes, precisely. There's nothing wrong with rolling a Pally in the first place, and if it's your first character then you can't be held responsible to believe that you could DPS end-game, but once one gets good enough knowledge of the game, or hangs out on some forums >_>, one would have to realize that he will have to tank or heal, or roll a different class to be a desirable DPSer. Rolling a Pally isn't a noob thing to do (or else hey, everyone here is a noob) and speccing Ret to level certainly isn't a noob thing to do, on the contrary. The noob thing is to dismiss solid evidence and numbers that speak against the Ret Pally's ability to perform as well as other DPS specs in end-game. (Of course, if you're not too hardcore you just won't care about this and it's perfectly fine, but don't expect to do end-game with raiding guilds)
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but a mage and a rogue and a hunter are the classes blizzard blessed with dps and cc. ret pallies and feral druids are the specs blizzard decided should be dps and moderate healing/OT abilities. of course if a raid needs dps/cc then the feral/boomkin druid and ret pally may be displaced from those groups. if they can find a raid group that will take what they bring that the dps/cc classes don't (off heals/off tanking/damage aura's, etc) then the class can work well.
Don't make such comparison between the Pally and Druid. I know both classes rather well and, frankly, they cannot be compared. When it comes to end-game, a Ret Pally does *not* OT unless he likes to die. Keeping his tank gear on to be ready for OT'ing will only result in even worse DPS. On the other hand, a Druid can DPS and OT in fairly similar gear as much of a Feral Tank's gear is based on Agi for Dodge which also gives Crit. A fair mix of Cat DPS gear and Bear tank gear can allow a great DPS/tank "hybrid" that still does decent damage. However, for both classes, their healing capacities are quite limited as they are not specced for it.
Also, I don't think you should assume anything about Blizz's intentions regarding classes and specs. Only they know that and it is up to us to see how we decide to use them. Regarding Ret Pallies in particular, you must admit they do not bring much that Pallies of different specs can already bring. But that is also fully discussed and covered in other threads.
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haha, yes it does.... warlock maybe?
I'd tend to agree, but it depends what class you're using to kill them. :P
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thankyou for at least being one to be fairly calm and reasonable. i may not agree with you on this issue, but at least i can respect you for the way you present your arguements. i like a good debate and reasonable people like you make it so much more fun :)
Of course. I usually try to remain polite and not too bashful. I still fail sometimes. >_>
EDIT: Holy crap, one of my biggest post so far with the quotes and all, had to cut some of them down but I think it's still huge. T_T
Edited, Oct 27th 2007 12:33am by Selverein
Selverein wrote:
First problem is that to gear up a Ret Pally to the teeth, you have to spread your stats. You need AP/Str, Crit/Agi, SpellDmg to some extent and Int to keep you going. Other, more DPS-focused classes/specs will often have only 1-2 stats to worry about. They will thus max out their capacity much more easily.
A lot of people feel that the same can be said about my main's class(Mages). We have a lot more things to focus on other than just pure spell damage(and a bit of spell hit). Comparatively, Shadowpriests and Affliction warlocks(considered by most to be the highest dps casters right now) tend to only need to focus on raw spell damage and some +hit(yes, I understand that crit does help affliction locks a bit in keeping up Imp Shadowbolt, but it's not a focus).
This spreading of stats tends to mean one has to find a much more precarious happy balance than other classes to ensure optimal DPS. I feel that your next statements are more telling reasons why Ret tends to be less useful DPS, though.
Selverein wrote:
Third problem is/can be that Ret Pallies rely on mana for DPS. Rogues got energy, Warrs got Rage, Mages do rely on mana too, but they have Evocation, etc. From what I've seen, it is far too easy for a Ret Pally to go all out and burn all mana far too quickly. Perhaps I'm the only one who has seen that, and perhaps that once they get better gear it stops being an issue, but meh.
I know I've skipped over number 2, I'm coming back to it. Because of this reliance on mana and less helpful ways to return it than given to other classes, the ret paladin finds themselves forced to use less than optimal damage rotations. The Horde Ret paladin has an option that gives him a more focused stat selection(less reliance on spell damage, though it is still needed) as well as allowing him to gain back more mana more reliably if properly placed within a raid group(put them with a shadow priest and they gain not only VT mana returns, but mana returns as they are healed by VE). So that means that Horde paladins find themselves in a much more secure DPS position until...
Selverein wrote:
Second problem is Ret Pallies currently have no means of reducing aggro. Sure, we got a Salv blessing, but since we can give it to everyone, it does not count in the end. As such, the Ret Pally will actually have to *refrain* from DPSing too much, which results in ineffective DPSing. Other, more DPS-focused classes/specs will not only have innate threat reduction, but also some abilities to reduce it should they crit too much or something.
All the DPS in the world will not avail you if you're threat limited. I have a feeling that Horde paladins will find themselves in a relatively good DPS position after the next patch while Alliance paladins will still be having some mana issues(though their DPS will likely increase a bit too). Both will almost definitely be more wanted in 5 mans than they are now, though.
Granted, this is mostly based on gut feeling and minimal theorycraft, so take it as you will.
Selverein wrote:
EDIT: Holy crap, one of my biggest post so far with the quotes and all, had to cut some of them down but I think it's still huge. T_T
Nothing wrong with long posts as long as the content of the discussion within is sound and relevant. In otherwords, don't go and Gbaji it up.
Edit: In making that last quote, I went and messed up part of my discussion. Fixed now.
Edited, Oct 27th 2007 12:25am by Poldaran
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