Subtlety has long since been hailed by me and several other rogues on this forum as "the most stupid and pointless tree in existence". In beta, Sub won the award for the most useless talent in the game: Improved Distract. The tree has changed pictures and stats around every now in then, but it still has never strayed far from its initial role: a useless but "fun" tree. The tree faced near extinction when put up against resilience as this stat affected this tree arguably more than any other class' tree. It turned subtlety into the spec that you would laugh at fresh 70's for talenting in to, and made it quite the "black sheep" of the rogue family.
Then comes this patch. I know I've been taken by surprise from Blizzard's attitude towards Subtlety: I figured they would want to fix issues with the other two main trees before trying to even bother with this "useless" area of rogues. Then I saw all the changes blizzard was making come into affect. I've documented the "useful" ones here.
Dirty Deeds
Dirty Deeds was changed to cause an increased amount of damage against opponents who dropped below 40%, making this a "perma-execute" like talent. I initially thought it was useless, as a sub rogue probably couldn't take someone geared down to 40% anyway.
Shadowstep
The next big change. Shadowstep was changed to an in combat 40 second cooldown that decreased threat. I thought this was incredibly stupid, as threat only matters in a PvE environment and no one in their right mind would spec sub for pve.
Shadowstep 2
Shadowstep's cooldown was lowered to 30 seconds and caused to increase your next special attack's damage by 20%. Another pretty good buff.
Cheat Death
Cheat Death was changed to a 100% chance to completely dodge an incoming attack that would otherwise kill you and decreases all damage done to you by 90% for the next 3 seconds.
Review
Although I am still unsure of the tree's success or not, it excites me to say that Subtlety may be reborn as a viable pvp spec. The addition of shadowstep as a 30 second in combat ability allows for not only an extremely viable way to catch up to an opponent, but also a new play style. Picture this. You're fighting an opponent, and throughout the fight besides using normal rogue techniques you also use a 20% increased damage backstab. You get the guy below 35% HP, then vanish -> shadowstep -> cheap shot -> 5 point eviscerate. You just threw out an incredibly powerful/modified hit: increased damage from dirty deeds, shadowstep and master of subtlety. Or imagine you're attacking some class and you see his caster healing him. You instantly shadowstep over and kick the heal while your team finishes off the poor sap. Or his team focus fires you, and you last for 3 seconds longer than anyone even in plate could hope to last (due to cheat death).
The possibilities are exciting, but there is one big anvil that rains down on this parade: resilience. Sub still does less damage than Assassination/Combat and Combat/Assassination and it always will. Sub's strength comes from cooldown spamming with preparation and its great mobility in the arena. But will its damage still be too low to fare well?
I'm very interested to see how sub fares in the next patch. If these buffs don't revive it, then I don't believe anything ever will.
So what are your thoughts?
Will Subtlety be revived because of its high survivability/mobility, or will it still be retarded because of its low damage?
Edited, Oct 23rd 2007 10:10pm by Shaolinz
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Subtlety: Revival or Retarded?Follow
full sub is very interesting indeed
VERY interesting
dirty deeds is 35% btw not 40%, just to note it exact talent is "when target drops below 35% hp, you deal 10/20% more damage"
and to be effective
the new dirty deeds is so powerful, its like pretending they dont got resilience
+20% on all reg attacks
+20% on all crits!
at 394 resilience, its 10% crit reduce, 20% crit damage weakened
so its a big buff to all non crits, and you need over 400 resilience to even affect a natural crit
for example
rogue vs rogue, test crit
dropped him to 19% hp for dirty deeds to activate
had 5 cp
used shadow step, 0/3 imp evis (thats right, ZERO of 3)
sub ap of under 1600 in pvp gear (yes i know, kill me nao lol)
i crit him when he sat down (at his normal armor too btw) for 2 3 7 8
WOW! whens the last time you saw evis crit like that
add in 3/3 imp evis, and have the target fully EAd and maybe change that to near 3k THROUGH 400 RESILIENCE
the single best pvp talent we have imo, ill stick by that easily
im gonna be a future supporter of the 0-20-41 hemo/step, king of the 1v1s except vs maybe druids (havent fought enough to tell, im doing well so far though) and ar/prep rogues
but i didnt max out my stealth and i never get the jump on ar/prep rogues, that may change as well
sub is now a great pvp tree, ar/prep got a lot better, 30-0-31 got a lot better as well
enjoy having a 3rd tree boys
Edited, Oct 23rd 2007 10:40pm by mongoosexcore
VERY interesting
dirty deeds is 35% btw not 40%, just to note it exact talent is "when target drops below 35% hp, you deal 10/20% more damage"
and to be effective
the new dirty deeds is so powerful, its like pretending they dont got resilience
+20% on all reg attacks
+20% on all crits!
at 394 resilience, its 10% crit reduce, 20% crit damage weakened
so its a big buff to all non crits, and you need over 400 resilience to even affect a natural crit
for example
rogue vs rogue, test crit
dropped him to 19% hp for dirty deeds to activate
had 5 cp
used shadow step, 0/3 imp evis (thats right, ZERO of 3)
sub ap of under 1600 in pvp gear (yes i know, kill me nao lol)
i crit him when he sat down (at his normal armor too btw) for 2 3 7 8
WOW! whens the last time you saw evis crit like that
add in 3/3 imp evis, and have the target fully EAd and maybe change that to near 3k THROUGH 400 RESILIENCE
the single best pvp talent we have imo, ill stick by that easily
im gonna be a future supporter of the 0-20-41 hemo/step, king of the 1v1s except vs maybe druids (havent fought enough to tell, im doing well so far though) and ar/prep rogues
but i didnt max out my stealth and i never get the jump on ar/prep rogues, that may change as well
sub is now a great pvp tree, ar/prep got a lot better, 30-0-31 got a lot better as well
enjoy having a 3rd tree boys
Edited, Oct 23rd 2007 10:40pm by mongoosexcore
I personally have allways been a fan of the sub tree. I think bliz might be trying to balance out sub and resillience by increasing the damage to a rather terrifying level. If they do fix the tree, I'm all for it!
I would love viable sub, I think its not far away from such a thing.
Shaolinz wrote:
You get the guy below 35% HP, then vanish -> shadowstep -> cheap shot -> CB 5 point eviscerate.
21/0/41 would pwn.
Mageoken wrote:
Shaoliz wrote:
You get the guy below 35% HP, then vanish -> shadowstep -> cheap shot -> CB 5 point eviscerate.
21/0/41 would pwn.
LOL, I didnt catch that one, nice.
Lol, sorry. Didn't even mean to throw cold blood in there. I've always been assassination, almost forgot cold blood was a talent...
Mid to high end subtlety rocks now. The problem still is, and always has been, the first few tiers you have to waste so many points on. You spend too many points for what you get. Blizzard's on the right track, but we need some talents worth getting in the first couple tiers to make subtlety a truly viable tree.
You guys make me so happy w/ your sub talk. i cant wait to go raid-hemo, or pvp hemo. Zomg, if they added anything to the lower tiers to make them not suck...then i think i'd **** myself out of happiness.
But i do think that it has to do with "commitment". Idk, it seems like you have to be willing to really decide on the "pvp" tree and really go down it to get the good stuff, but on purpose. Like, you cant just toss 5-11 pts in there and get some really good stuff (assasination). You really have to dump pts. Idk, maybe a little something to make it better, ghostly strike is ok, not zomgwtfbbq though (from the experience i have w/ it, it may in fact rock in high end arena).
But i do think that it has to do with "commitment". Idk, it seems like you have to be willing to really decide on the "pvp" tree and really go down it to get the good stuff, but on purpose. Like, you cant just toss 5-11 pts in there and get some really good stuff (assasination). You really have to dump pts. Idk, maybe a little something to make it better, ghostly strike is ok, not zomgwtfbbq though (from the experience i have w/ it, it may in fact rock in high end arena).
See with Assassination, you get "good" talents every 5 points or so. Sub you have to pour in around 20 before you start seeing some real "good" talents.
Yeah exactly, assasination hooks you up w/ goodies all the way to 41 pts; combat increases offhand damage, hit rating, and gives you all those l337 raid talents. W/ sub it seems you have to be willing to pretty much dump 20 pts to get the good stuff like dealiness/SS/hemo/prep/premed. it really could use SOMETHING in the lower tier.
Either way, i've been playing almost a year, and i've never seen rogues get so many blatant buffs. Then blizz bufss the not-so-buffed-buffs even more on the PTR.
Either way, i've been playing almost a year, and i've never seen rogues get so many blatant buffs. Then blizz bufss the not-so-buffed-buffs even more on the PTR.
It's interesting, but I remain cautious. I don't think the current changes are enough to be honest.
That or they can keep buffing the hell out of the later talents. That'd work too.
Quote:
Mid to high end subtlety rocks now. The problem still is, and always has been, the first few tiers you have to waste so many points on. You spend too many points for what you get. Blizzard's on the right track, but we need some talents worth getting in the first couple tiers to make subtlety a truly viable tree.
That or they can keep buffing the hell out of the later talents. That'd work too.
you guys are forgetting potentially the best buff to the sub tree--the increase in the hemo debuff from 10 to 36 damage. i estimate that this increase in the debuff, in addition to the 20% bonus damage when enemies are below 35% health, will correlate to around a 100dps increase. this is very dramatic. i think that this will make a 3 tree hybrid spec MORE viable than full combat/assassin spec. i will present my findings numerically tomorrow. very excited, and very tired. i did the mathz out. ok, peace guys, can't wait to show you why sub tree is potentially the hottest raid spec now.
lessonsinlogic wrote:
i think that this will make a 3 tree hybrid spec MORE viable than full combat/assassin spec. i will present my findings numerically tomorrow. very excited, and very tired. i did the mathz out. ok, peace guys, can't wait to show you why sub tree is potentially the hottest raid spec now.
Isn't there another thread on this already?
Still curious, though.
there is, mine is different. like i said, i'll be posting it and a few variations tomorrow. i am supposed to be studying for a midterm that i have in 2.5 hours.
I don't think hemo will ever be a decent build, regardless of the changes they put to it. The only way you could make it work is if you go swords/maces, and if you do that you're better off going combat maces anyway.
to those going "vanish shadowstep cs evis" i think the shadowstep might be consumed on the CS, the text is unclear atm so ill test and confirm this
and the low tier sub talents arent HORRIBLE
initiative is very nice to have, ghostly strike i love having to use solo and pvp, setup has a good use that no one ever feels like noticing (yall hate warriors, GS+setup = free vs warrior dps =\)
sleight of hand is almost a free 80 resil before it affected dots (now its more like 40-50 imo) i mean... lowers chance u get crit on? thats a big part of resil... thats a free talent for it :D
14 yard blind (i think ptr has blind at stock 15 so would be 19 after patch) for almost free is useful for snabbing a runner or a healer
only really WEAK tier in sub is tier 1, and thats only if you arent daggers
just think of the uses a lil better guys, for serial... *** and combat start off better but dont say sub starts off bad
mages arcance, now THAT starts off bad... or a hunters survival? how about shaman resto?
and the low tier sub talents arent HORRIBLE
initiative is very nice to have, ghostly strike i love having to use solo and pvp, setup has a good use that no one ever feels like noticing (yall hate warriors, GS+setup = free vs warrior dps =\)
sleight of hand is almost a free 80 resil before it affected dots (now its more like 40-50 imo) i mean... lowers chance u get crit on? thats a big part of resil... thats a free talent for it :D
14 yard blind (i think ptr has blind at stock 15 so would be 19 after patch) for almost free is useful for snabbing a runner or a healer
only really WEAK tier in sub is tier 1, and thats only if you arent daggers
just think of the uses a lil better guys, for serial... *** and combat start off better but dont say sub starts off bad
mages arcance, now THAT starts off bad... or a hunters survival? how about shaman resto?
On my server, nearly every rogue I've met (when I do instances mainly) are sub. To be honest they don't do too bad either. And I'm actually surprised that there are SO many sub rogues out there that are level 70. I know a lot of people, especially the ones here on this forum, have said that sub is a completely dead tree. Well tell that to the PLENTY of 70 sub rogues on the Twisting Nether realm and you will get very different answers/opinions. But personally I think combat/mutilate is the best tree.....for now.
As far as the entry level sub talents, I feel like Camo is very useful in PvP. In the BG's I can't touch anybody stealthed unless they accidentally walk over me. I havent specced any sub yet because I am still leveling, and would prefer talents that increase my dps (with swords) as opposed to dumping 10 points into MoD and Camo.
Buuuut as PvPer, I am very very interested in how this plays out. Is there an estimated "delivery" date for 2.3?
Buuuut as PvPer, I am very very interested in how this plays out. Is there an estimated "delivery" date for 2.3?
Twisting Nether rogues are noobs.
I should know.
I am one.
Edited, Oct 24th 2007 11:17am by EonSprinter
I should know.
I am one.
Edited, Oct 24th 2007 11:17am by EonSprinter
Quote:
I don't think hemo will ever be a decent build, regardless of the changes they put to it. The only way you could make it work is if you go swords/maces, and if you do that you're better off going combat maces anyway.
Shao, I'm sorry to burst your bubble, but the new change to Sub are all about making it friendly to non-dagger user.
Hemo Boost? Shadowstep affecting all attacks (so SS and Hemo)?
Even Neilyo on the PTR when he did his best of 7 against Ming was wielding maces with a deep sub spec.
Dagger Sub is still going to suck in 2.3.
Edited, Oct 24th 2007 12:45pm by Tyrandor
What's the point of hemo anyway? Could it be used to get a deep boost to your backstab damage (as in it adds +36 to the damage before the BS modifiers are added) or does it just flat out add 36 damage (modifiers are done THEN the 36 is applied)? I don't buy the "spam for CP generation" as it doesn't generate them faster than mutilate, and I'm just really curious as to what a hemo build hopes to accomplish.
hemo is a 35 energy SS, with a debuff that naturally flows better with stunlocking
and it isnt normalized, so unlike ss, you need a slow weapon for it
has no synergy with backstab builds, its meant to replace your ss button in basic ways of using it
and it isnt normalized, so unlike ss, you need a slow weapon for it
has no synergy with backstab builds, its meant to replace your ss button in basic ways of using it
Quote:
I don't buy the "spam for CP generation" as it doesn't generate them faster than mutilate, and I'm just really curious as to what a hemo build hopes to accomplish.
I'm going to qualify this post with the statement that I prefer Mutilate Builds to Hemo. But, think about it.
CS, Hemo, Hemo (75% of the time you have a 5 point kidney shot waiting for you).
KS, Hemo, Hemo , whatever
It generates CP's pretty fast, especially given the non positional requirement once your KS is finished. And a non AR'd CS>>>KS lockdown doesn't come close to the damage that a non AR'd Hemo routine does because you only get 1 SS in before your Kidney Shot with a SS build. And that's now, before the Hemo Buff to 2.3.
yes, Muti produces more CP's. But is this true all of the time? Even for good twitch players, getting behind an opponent isn't easy once your sprint is up and you have crip/concussion/frost/Curse of exhaustion on you. This is where I see the possibility that in many PVP situations Hemo might actually produce more CP's than Muti.
I still like Muti/Combat, but the buffs to Sub are making me reconsider.
Hemo used to be the control build, all about getting fast CP and locking down a target.
Nowaday, Mutilate does get more CB, however like Vvillain said, Hemo isn't positional.
Mutilate gets more CP on paper... but Hemo probably gets more in practice, simply because you can always Hemo someone.
It's like I said, even neilyo was cb/prep/hemo on the PTR in 'best of' series.
Nowaday, Mutilate does get more CB, however like Vvillain said, Hemo isn't positional.
Mutilate gets more CP on paper... but Hemo probably gets more in practice, simply because you can always Hemo someone.
It's like I said, even neilyo was cb/prep/hemo on the PTR in 'best of' series.
Well, the day I use any weapon besides daggers is the day I'll probably quit this game. That's just me being stubborn though: looks like hemo will really be a good thing afterall.
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