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new cheat death, opinions?Follow
11 posts
Being an almost pure sub rogue ,16/0/45, I'm positively giddy over the changes. I'll probably leave this one alone, but it's a nice tweak.
quor
ill give you a better example then
this starts with the rogue at 200 hp left, littered with dots (lets say arena, shadow pri/warlock team)
shadow word pain ticks for 290 (immuned by cheat death)
you gain cheat death
curse of agony ticks for 30 (270 resisted)
immolation ticks for 25 (225 resisted)
corruption ticks for 40 (360 resisted)
you lose cheat death
shadow word pain ticks for 290
you die
1v1, versus a warrior, rogue at 200 hp
deep wounds ticks for 240 (immuned by cheat death)
you gain cheat death
warrior executes you for 300 (2700 resisted)
you die
it just depends what move it saves, if it saves you from a ****** low end hit, its not worth nothing imo.... if it immunes a 100 rage execute at 1k hp, thats a big deal with a healer on your time
just i dont think its useful ness is worth 3 points
ill give you a better example then
this starts with the rogue at 200 hp left, littered with dots (lets say arena, shadow pri/warlock team)
shadow word pain ticks for 290 (immuned by cheat death)
you gain cheat death
curse of agony ticks for 30 (270 resisted)
immolation ticks for 25 (225 resisted)
corruption ticks for 40 (360 resisted)
you lose cheat death
shadow word pain ticks for 290
you die
1v1, versus a warrior, rogue at 200 hp
deep wounds ticks for 240 (immuned by cheat death)
you gain cheat death
warrior executes you for 300 (2700 resisted)
you die
it just depends what move it saves, if it saves you from a ****** low end hit, its not worth nothing imo.... if it immunes a 100 rage execute at 1k hp, thats a big deal with a healer on your time
just i dont think its useful ness is worth 3 points
The odds of you dying from DoTs instead of a 1k damage shadowburn or a warrior's white hit are so damn low - even more so with a healer - that it's comical to see you focus on that one aspect in order to convince yourself this isn't a great change.
dots are an example
the odds of the killing blow being over 1k are low, rogue white hits, a dot tick, a non crit spell, something smallish more likely does ya in
how many times have you barely lived, or have you just almost killed someone, compared to how many times you took em from 30% to 0 in 1 hit?
the odds of the killing blow being over 1k are low, rogue white hits, a dot tick, a non crit spell, something smallish more likely does ya in
how many times have you barely lived, or have you just almost killed someone, compared to how many times you took em from 30% to 0 in 1 hit?
1k = 8-10% of people's health nowaday Mongoose, not 30%.
You also need to remember that 1v1 doesn't mean much, in arena, you should have a healer. Something as simple as having renew on will save you from 'dot death'.
Edited, Oct 25th 2007 1:44pm by Tyrandor
You also need to remember that 1v1 doesn't mean much, in arena, you should have a healer. Something as simple as having renew on will save you from 'dot death'.
Edited, Oct 25th 2007 1:44pm by Tyrandor
2 classes dispel magics now, soon to be 3
and ya i might be ove-exaggerating it, i dunno just dun seem so great for 3 points
a lot of 2s or 3s with rogues dont have a healer, or at least dont have one that outlives the rogue, maybe itll be good for 5v5.. but anyone doin that much sub in 5v5 prob wont do well.... and the talent is flimsy in 1v1, like its okay, but not great
and not all 2s are rogue/healer, ill find you a bunch high rated rogue/lock or rogue/mage teams if you like
just remember its only a 3 second grace period, unless you got a bunch of hp left and it immuned a big crit, theres a good shot your healer is cc'd while they take you down... will 3 seconds give your healer enough time to break cc and get ya a heal?
paladin healer vs warrior teams id say yes, priest maybe if he shields into flash heal/renew, but sham or druid id say no
just meh, it seems bad to me.... my examples might be not the best, but its not like its gonna proc with your healer WAITING for it to happen, 3 seconds isnt a long time... anything from a coil to a OOR, a fear to a silence, a gouge to dragons breath... any of it can ruin that 3 second window youre gonna get once..... a 3 second window you lost the ability to get AR to get
it works well-ish with daggers and QR, but that kinda thing screams combat rogue... and that much sub without ar i dont see as potent enough to get high enough rating where you can expect your healer to be ready for that kinda window of opportunity
move it lower in the sub tree, or make it on-use... then we're talking i think, maybe on-use preppable
but as is, any team that fights you more then once in a night will know what they are lookin for, and get rdy for it... (rogue/healer vs warrior/healer round 2: they know u got cheat death, they just take you down slower and make it a mana fight, when it procs off something.. have a 100 rage execute ready to use 4 seconds later, maybe while the 90% is triggered even, who knows)
the fights i think where it can save you i just dont see the ability ever being more useful then AR for combat, and daggers without full SF and without muti seems weak as **** to me
useful as you claim it MAY be, not worth the 3 points to me, full sub cant spare em and a hybrid far enough down into sub to get it already made a mistake speccing
unless you wanna give me 1 good reason why CD is better then preppable AR for hemo builds, or why youd go CD/QR daggers with no sealfate (or instead of muti)
short version: i dont see CD ever being better then AR for hemo hybrids, Mutilate for pvp dagger builds, Seal fate for 3x-0-3x builds, or the points being available to a good full sub tree
and ya i might be ove-exaggerating it, i dunno just dun seem so great for 3 points
a lot of 2s or 3s with rogues dont have a healer, or at least dont have one that outlives the rogue, maybe itll be good for 5v5.. but anyone doin that much sub in 5v5 prob wont do well.... and the talent is flimsy in 1v1, like its okay, but not great
and not all 2s are rogue/healer, ill find you a bunch high rated rogue/lock or rogue/mage teams if you like
just remember its only a 3 second grace period, unless you got a bunch of hp left and it immuned a big crit, theres a good shot your healer is cc'd while they take you down... will 3 seconds give your healer enough time to break cc and get ya a heal?
paladin healer vs warrior teams id say yes, priest maybe if he shields into flash heal/renew, but sham or druid id say no
just meh, it seems bad to me.... my examples might be not the best, but its not like its gonna proc with your healer WAITING for it to happen, 3 seconds isnt a long time... anything from a coil to a OOR, a fear to a silence, a gouge to dragons breath... any of it can ruin that 3 second window youre gonna get once..... a 3 second window you lost the ability to get AR to get
it works well-ish with daggers and QR, but that kinda thing screams combat rogue... and that much sub without ar i dont see as potent enough to get high enough rating where you can expect your healer to be ready for that kinda window of opportunity
move it lower in the sub tree, or make it on-use... then we're talking i think, maybe on-use preppable
but as is, any team that fights you more then once in a night will know what they are lookin for, and get rdy for it... (rogue/healer vs warrior/healer round 2: they know u got cheat death, they just take you down slower and make it a mana fight, when it procs off something.. have a 100 rage execute ready to use 4 seconds later, maybe while the 90% is triggered even, who knows)
the fights i think where it can save you i just dont see the ability ever being more useful then AR for combat, and daggers without full SF and without muti seems weak as **** to me
useful as you claim it MAY be, not worth the 3 points to me, full sub cant spare em and a hybrid far enough down into sub to get it already made a mistake speccing
unless you wanna give me 1 good reason why CD is better then preppable AR for hemo builds, or why youd go CD/QR daggers with no sealfate (or instead of muti)
short version: i dont see CD ever being better then AR for hemo hybrids, Mutilate for pvp dagger builds, Seal fate for 3x-0-3x builds, or the points being available to a good full sub tree
It's not about AR vs CD. It's other talents in Sub vs CD. Personally, id take CD over Master of Sub.
If you are going ShS... you may as well pick it up and it will be worth it.
But you are right in saying CD isn't the reason to go deep sub.
But you are right in saying CD isn't the reason to go deep sub.
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a lot of 2s or 3s with rogues dont have a healer, or at least dont have one that outlives the rogue, maybe itll be good for 5v5.. but anyone doin that much sub in 5v5 prob wont do well.... and the talent is flimsy in 1v1, like its okay, but not great
A lot of 2s and 3s don't have healer? Maybe below 1800 rating, but above, I can guarantee you that while healer less teams do indeed exist, there's far from being 'a lot' of them.
As for Sub's 5v5, I think you're wrong. Sub might end up being THE 5v5 spec now.
Shadowstep give great mobility, Cheat Death means that even a 4 man burn team is going to have some hesitation about picking the rogue only to have him CD and get healed to full during those 3 seconds... and lastly, Dirty Deeds is going to be awesome on burn team, where your target's hp will dip to 30% fairly quickly and your talent will ensure he stays there.
Nobody brings rogue to 5v5 for damage, they bring us for control - well, Hemo is about control.
Sub now address two of the rogue's main concern in 5v5 - Mobility and the fact that we're easy focus target.
You are in love with the sub tree... but in the weirdest way possible. Instead of actually seeing what it's good at, you're trying to make it into what you want it to be.
It remain to be seen if the change will work as intended or if they'll actually be effective.
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and that much sub without ar i dont see as potent enough to get high enough rating where you can expect your healer to be ready for that kinda window of opportunity
What window of opportunity? If you're getting close to a Cheat Death proc, you've been beat on for quite some time already. Your healer should be healing you.
CD is not something your healer will 'wait on'... it's something that will allow him to bring you back from death's door. Dying because that heal was in mid-cast won't happen anymore.
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just remember its only a 3 second grace period, unless you got a bunch of hp left and it immuned a big crit, theres a good shot your healer is cc'd while they take you down... will 3 seconds give your healer enough time to break cc and get ya a heal?
It'll give you time to vanish. Blind. Gouge. Try to use any of our escape move.
And by the way, if the team you're fighting is capable of flawlessly crowd controlling your healers when you're at -10ish % left, you are gonna die with or without cheat death. They're outplaying you, and your talents aren't gonna change that.
That doesn't mean the talent doesn't do what it's suppose to do. The other team may not be able to CC or Counter your healer. They maybe out of range. They're ability maybe on cooldown. Your other partner might be making their ccer's life hell.
There's plenty of way to counter Cheat Death. But then there's plenty of way to counter _anything_. Nobody claimed CD was an 'i win' button, that doesn't mean it's not good.
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useful as you claim it MAY be, not worth the 3 points to me, full sub cant spare em and a hybrid far enough down into sub to get it already made a mistake speccing
They most certainly can if they don't make dumb choice like 5/5 oppo for one move or 2/2 sleight of hand.
You've said that sleight of hand was a great talent because it lowers crit rate by 2%... but a move that makes you unkillable for 3second isn't good? Moongoose, are you insane?
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the fights i think where it can save you i just dont see the ability ever being more useful then AR for combat, and daggers without full SF and without muti seems weak as sh*t to me
I would only advise taking Cheat Death if you're going all the way to shadowstep. Otherwise, don't take it.
But if you've got 41 point in sub and you didn't take cheat death... you screwed up your spec.
Edited, Oct 25th 2007 6:35pm by Tyrandor
haha this posts is gettin hella long, i would LOVE to chat with ya outside forums sometime hehe; while my views will stay and ill debate my side... but this is also how i change how i view things, long drawn out convos... regardless of whos right itll help me view this in a new light
so lemme get this straight, you wanna bring a rogue, who gave up TONS of damage, and isnt particularly easier to heal (qr) or run people down (ff) for a move similar to intercept, but worse?
that seems to make no sense to me at all... why would ya take a step rogue over a ms warrior? for the cc? most of stunlocks cc is based off being un-interrupted, and in all honesty... using ANY arena offhand save mutilator, you can stunlock just the same (less damage though) using shiv
hell shiv on wound and stunlock to get him ready for an attack lol
going step gives rogues a poor intercept and CD if you value it over QR (i dont, not even close) at the cost of most damage? congratulations, you just make sub rogue seem like a ret pally if he had shorter cds hehe (thats a joke btw)
if your rogue is SERIOUSLY getting killed first, ill give it a maybe... but otherwise i dont see any reason to go full sub over ar/prep, ar prep is just as much stunlock with 2 chances to burst a guy to finish (ar+deeds=closing move to end all closing moves, even execute almost haha)
except ar/prep also has weapon specs (mace spec, wouldnt that be even BETTER cc then 41 sub hemo?) just curious on your thoughts there, i never did 5v5... my knowledge would be limited, but that sounds about right to me
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when i was discussing the 'window' of 3 seconds from cd... id imagine if your expecting a rogue to have CD you would cc the healer before youd finish then burn a cd to finish the job..... mirror match in particular, if a deeds rogue is on you and you proc cd... will those 3 seconds outweigh dirty deeds? how bout mortal strike, or wound poison, or the inc mortal strike ish shot from hunters?
i know the healer should be on you the whole time, but a talent thats procs 1 extra chance to stay alive a smidge more just meeehhhh... i think i can get past that honestly, if i had to kill it myself
its not that the ability is not good, but its not good enough i dont think... 3 points deep in, only a shadowstep rogue should want, and i can think of 5 situations in 2v2 or 3v3 id want a diff specced rogue for every 1 id want full shadowstep
ar/prep is gonna be the ruler of 2v2, might even be for 3v3... 5v5, like i said... i dont do it, i dont ever intend to... lemme know how step and CD work in 5v5, but in 2s and 3s im calling its not worth it at all
its like a elementalist mage, fire specced with IBar..... sure itll WORK, but full frost would work... better, outside of a small amount of occasions.... kinda get my meaning by that?
http://wowhead.com/?talent=fZZxMjoMGRoxst
was your linked example
you took convience camo over sleight? no setup, no master of sub? **** that.... ill take 3/3 setup for warr/rogue matches in 2v2 over cheat death any day of the week
and master of sub for any truly old school style stunlock, its 10% on opener, 10% on your 2 vanishs, 10% on any combat restealths you do
i see us being on 2 schools of thought here, mine being old school sub... big control and damage, while your relating it to the hunter survival tree, tricks and staying alive
and if your gonna take a satying alive talent like CD and choose 6% stealth only move speed over 2% of half-resilience... i rather not think about the kinda of goals your going for <3
unless you prefer some element of damage.... then setup is better for anti-warr/anti-rogue fightd (popular in 2v2 is it not?)
or unless your interested in something other then arena, say BG farm or world pvp/duels...then master of sub is for you as well
cheat death for survival, but that rogue better be ALSO qr, ff, and all those goodies, running a healer... then maybe its a good idea, and MAYBE with step in 5v5 (i dunno hwo that would go either way)
but its just points useful kinda ya, but i see setup being a better overall for those 3 points
free cp vs a warrior could make a world of difference, just a thought
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As for Sub's 5v5, I think you're wrong. Sub might end up being THE 5v5 spec now.
Shadowstep give great mobility, Cheat Death means that even a 4 man burn team is going to have some hesitation about picking the rogue only to have him CD and get healed to full during those 3 seconds... and lastly, Dirty Deeds is going to be awesome on burn team, where your target's hp will dip to 30% fairly quickly and your talent will ensure he stays there.
Shadowstep give great mobility, Cheat Death means that even a 4 man burn team is going to have some hesitation about picking the rogue only to have him CD and get healed to full during those 3 seconds... and lastly, Dirty Deeds is going to be awesome on burn team, where your target's hp will dip to 30% fairly quickly and your talent will ensure he stays there.
so lemme get this straight, you wanna bring a rogue, who gave up TONS of damage, and isnt particularly easier to heal (qr) or run people down (ff) for a move similar to intercept, but worse?
that seems to make no sense to me at all... why would ya take a step rogue over a ms warrior? for the cc? most of stunlocks cc is based off being un-interrupted, and in all honesty... using ANY arena offhand save mutilator, you can stunlock just the same (less damage though) using shiv
hell shiv on wound and stunlock to get him ready for an attack lol
going step gives rogues a poor intercept and CD if you value it over QR (i dont, not even close) at the cost of most damage? congratulations, you just make sub rogue seem like a ret pally if he had shorter cds hehe (thats a joke btw)
if your rogue is SERIOUSLY getting killed first, ill give it a maybe... but otherwise i dont see any reason to go full sub over ar/prep, ar prep is just as much stunlock with 2 chances to burst a guy to finish (ar+deeds=closing move to end all closing moves, even execute almost haha)
except ar/prep also has weapon specs (mace spec, wouldnt that be even BETTER cc then 41 sub hemo?) just curious on your thoughts there, i never did 5v5... my knowledge would be limited, but that sounds about right to me
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when i was discussing the 'window' of 3 seconds from cd... id imagine if your expecting a rogue to have CD you would cc the healer before youd finish then burn a cd to finish the job..... mirror match in particular, if a deeds rogue is on you and you proc cd... will those 3 seconds outweigh dirty deeds? how bout mortal strike, or wound poison, or the inc mortal strike ish shot from hunters?
i know the healer should be on you the whole time, but a talent thats procs 1 extra chance to stay alive a smidge more just meeehhhh... i think i can get past that honestly, if i had to kill it myself
its not that the ability is not good, but its not good enough i dont think... 3 points deep in, only a shadowstep rogue should want, and i can think of 5 situations in 2v2 or 3v3 id want a diff specced rogue for every 1 id want full shadowstep
ar/prep is gonna be the ruler of 2v2, might even be for 3v3... 5v5, like i said... i dont do it, i dont ever intend to... lemme know how step and CD work in 5v5, but in 2s and 3s im calling its not worth it at all
its like a elementalist mage, fire specced with IBar..... sure itll WORK, but full frost would work... better, outside of a small amount of occasions.... kinda get my meaning by that?
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They most certainly can if they don't make dumb choice like 5/5 oppo for one move or 2/2 sleight of hand.
You've said that sleight of hand was a great talent because it lowers crit rate by 2%... but a move that makes you unkillable for 3second isn't good? Moongoose, are you insane?
You've said that sleight of hand was a great talent because it lowers crit rate by 2%... but a move that makes you unkillable for 3second isn't good? Moongoose, are you insane?
http://wowhead.com/?talent=fZZxMjoMGRoxst
was your linked example
you took convience camo over sleight? no setup, no master of sub? **** that.... ill take 3/3 setup for warr/rogue matches in 2v2 over cheat death any day of the week
and master of sub for any truly old school style stunlock, its 10% on opener, 10% on your 2 vanishs, 10% on any combat restealths you do
i see us being on 2 schools of thought here, mine being old school sub... big control and damage, while your relating it to the hunter survival tree, tricks and staying alive
and if your gonna take a satying alive talent like CD and choose 6% stealth only move speed over 2% of half-resilience... i rather not think about the kinda of goals your going for <3
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But if you've got 41 point in sub and you didn't take cheat death... you screwed up your spec.
unless you prefer some element of damage.... then setup is better for anti-warr/anti-rogue fightd (popular in 2v2 is it not?)
or unless your interested in something other then arena, say BG farm or world pvp/duels...then master of sub is for you as well
cheat death for survival, but that rogue better be ALSO qr, ff, and all those goodies, running a healer... then maybe its a good idea, and MAYBE with step in 5v5 (i dunno hwo that would go either way)
but its just points useful kinda ya, but i see setup being a better overall for those 3 points
free cp vs a warrior could make a world of difference, just a thought
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like say a mage ap/pom pyros you at 10% the moment a warlock fires off a shadowbolt and a pally smacks you with HoW, would all three of those be "cheated" or would only the first to "hit" be cheated while the others are subject to the -90% modifier?
Yes, subject to -90% in 3 sec (which in game is like.. 1 sec due to lag etc).
Seriously the change is a nerf to me, imagine you can't be killed when you are lucky, become you definitely will be killed after it proc.
The change is a huge buff in terms of Arenas or other PvP (where you can reasonably expect a heal), and a minor nerf elsewhere. It'll allow you to -consistently- survive a beating, rather than sometimes appearing nigh-invincible with some lucky CD procs and other times having absolutely nothing helpful.
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so lemme get this straight, you wanna bring a rogue, who gave up TONS of damage, and isnt particularly easier to heal (qr) or run people down (ff) for a move similar to intercept, but worse?
No probably not, because even with the sub change, I still don't see Rogues has being better then warriors in 5v5.
But that doesn't mean the changes aren't aimed for 5v5. Like I said before, it remains to be seen if the change are going to be big enough to make us viable. Those changes are steps in the right direction, but Blizzard is going with baby steps when we need giant strides.
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if your rogue is SERIOUSLY getting killed first, ill give it a maybe
Have you ever even read any rogue complaint about 5v5?
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Stuff about other specs being better
Again, like I said - IF you're taking shadowstep, CD is a must.
If you aren't, then forget about it.
I never said Sub would be the best spec, I said it might end up being the 5v5 spec of choice. CD is not the reason to go deep sub, but once you're there, it's simply too good to pass up.
You're the one telling us you'll be specing deep sub to shadowstep next patch... why are you now saying QR is 'too good to pass up'?
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when i was discussing the 'window' of 3 seconds from cd... id imagine if your expecting a rogue to have CD you would cc the healer before youd finish then burn a cd to finish the job.
That's a moot point _again_ I'll repeat myself - if the other team is outplaying you and can totally lock down your healer when you're in low health, you will lose no matter what talents you have. This is not a weakness of Cheat Death, but an exemple where you're getting your *** kicked by a better team.
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you took convience camo over sleight? no setup, no master of sub? @#%^ that.... ill take 3/3 setup for warr/rogue matches in 2v2 over cheat death any day of the week
and master of sub for any truly old school style stunlock, its 10% on opener, 10% on your 2 vanishs, 10% on any combat restealths you do
i see us being on 2 schools of thought here, mine being old school sub... big control and damage, while your relating it to the hunter survival tree, tricks and staying alive
and master of sub for any truly old school style stunlock, its 10% on opener, 10% on your 2 vanishs, 10% on any combat restealths you do
i see us being on 2 schools of thought here, mine being old school sub... big control and damage, while your relating it to the hunter survival tree, tricks and staying alive
You have to understand that 'old school' sub and 'old school' stunlock simply don't work anymore. People have tried to make it work and as result, everybody say sub sucks now. If you want to repeat the mistakes of others, go ahead.
Master of Stealth amount to 10% for around 24 seconds (assuming two vanish and 1 restealth) in a 5 minutes fight. In other word, it's crap.
Granted, I understanding that with your rating, the idea of a 5 minutes (or longer) arena fights seems impossible, but they happen all the time at later level.
Sleight of hand and Setup are simply not good talents. Wishing for them to be will not change that. There's a reason why nobody going 41/0/20 back when that was a popular build took either of them and no change was made to either of them.
As limited a usage as Camo is, I'd still take it over Sleight of Hand. If anything, it allows for much faster combat restealth, making those actually a possibility with line of sight usage.
As for setup, it's use is extremely limited outside of fighting other rogues and warriors. The build you've been posting around has Riposte in it as well. You're trying to make a 1v1 anti-melee build. More power to you. And you're right, for 1v1 duel, cheap death doesn't do much for you.
But nobody cares about 1v1 duel anymore.
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Yes, subject to -90% in 3 sec (which in game is like.. 1 sec due to lag etc).
Seriously the change is a nerf to me, imagine you can't be killed when you are lucky, become you definitely will be killed after it proc.
It really isn't.
The one thing you seem to forget about the 30% chance to proc, is that 70% of the time, it didn't do anything and you died.
I know getting a few proc in a row can be really cool and leave an impression... but more often then not, you just died.
I'd much rather have reliability then randomness.
the chances of the old cheat death working twice in a row are 9/100 (3/10 * 3/10). let me calculate your expected "utility" from this change. let's say that either way you get a cheat death, you get healed to full (moot assumption but useful for calculating your expected utility). ok. so healed to full is worth 100 utility (100 for round numbers, the one worth more utility will come out ahead in the end anyway).
new cheat death:
100% * 100 = 100 utility
+ the utility gained from taking 90% less damage for 3 seconds which can't be quantified b/c it depends on the type of damage being taken and how much damage is being taken, which is variable...
old cheat death:
30% * 100 = 30 utility
in order for you to gain the same utility as the new cheat death you need cheat death to proc 3.33 times + ???times to account for the 90% less damage taken.
what are the chances of the old cheat death being able to proc that many times:
.3^3.33=1.81% chance of occurrence. ok, so let's calculate how much expected utility we will gain from it proc'ing that amount of times. i will use 4 times b/c of the fraction, giving the old cd a little extra benefit. it is roughly .3*100 + (.3^2)*100 + (.3^3)*100 + (.3^4)*100= 42.51 utility.
and this doesn't even account for the extra utility gained from the damage reduction. new cheat death is not a nerf at all, it is a huge buff
new cheat death:
100% * 100 = 100 utility
+ the utility gained from taking 90% less damage for 3 seconds which can't be quantified b/c it depends on the type of damage being taken and how much damage is being taken, which is variable...
old cheat death:
30% * 100 = 30 utility
in order for you to gain the same utility as the new cheat death you need cheat death to proc 3.33 times + ???times to account for the 90% less damage taken.
what are the chances of the old cheat death being able to proc that many times:
.3^3.33=1.81% chance of occurrence. ok, so let's calculate how much expected utility we will gain from it proc'ing that amount of times. i will use 4 times b/c of the fraction, giving the old cd a little extra benefit. it is roughly .3*100 + (.3^2)*100 + (.3^3)*100 + (.3^4)*100= 42.51 utility.
and this doesn't even account for the extra utility gained from the damage reduction. new cheat death is not a nerf at all, it is a huge buff
shrug tyr... i dunno
i wouldnt bring a guy on my arena whos specced badly, so while i get your saying 'if your full sub take it' im saying if arena is a concern, you wont be full sub... so i dunno if we just arent on the same wavelength or not... but i dont see why the argument for CD bein good at arena, when any rogue good for his marbles in arena prob isnt gonna be full sub
how many arena teams use a rogue, a warrior or both... particularly in 2v2 or 3v3?
go dig up my old school sub builds... i was rushdown hemo... ar/prep will be strong as hell for rushdown with new hemo and dirty deeds... thats my fallback if step dun work out
stunlock is dead, rushdown is not... not after this patch anyways
go look at my partners profile, my gear for pvp isnt the best... but more often then not... its not my fault we lose
shes fun to play with though, so i aint gonna dump her from my team... maybe in season 3, but who knows
i dont have an interest in 5v5, not even a lil bit... so like i said, feel free to learn me a thing or two about the 5v5 scene, but other then that try to refrain from the arena jokes bout my team.... i havent done it seriously in a while... ive been concentrating on other aspects of the game
i know damn well full combat maces is good, so is muti, so will be ar/prep
but it doesnt mean i play the builds cuz they are good... i play for my enjoyment... my current build is not arena mode, feel free to mail me 15 bucks and ill gladly take a month of serious arena and show ya whats up :)
== -- == -- == -- ==
side note about how anti melee 1v1 my build is gonna be.... thats because casters arent an issue... warriors and rogues were.... now they arent either, while its not optimal for arena, the build can handle every damn thing thrown at it :)
Edited, Oct 26th 2007 12:29pm by mongoosexcore
i wouldnt bring a guy on my arena whos specced badly, so while i get your saying 'if your full sub take it' im saying if arena is a concern, you wont be full sub... so i dunno if we just arent on the same wavelength or not... but i dont see why the argument for CD bein good at arena, when any rogue good for his marbles in arena prob isnt gonna be full sub
Quote:
As for setup, it's use is extremely limited outside of fighting other rogues and warriors. The build you've been posting around has Riposte in it as well. You're trying to make a 1v1 anti-melee build. More power to you. And you're right, for 1v1 duel, cheap death doesn't do much for you.
how many arena teams use a rogue, a warrior or both... particularly in 2v2 or 3v3?
Quote:
You have to understand that 'old school' sub and 'old school' stunlock simply don't work anymore. People have tried to make it work and as result, everybody say sub sucks now. If you want to repeat the mistakes of others, go ahead.
go dig up my old school sub builds... i was rushdown hemo... ar/prep will be strong as hell for rushdown with new hemo and dirty deeds... thats my fallback if step dun work out
stunlock is dead, rushdown is not... not after this patch anyways
Quote:
cheap shot about my arena rating blah blah <3
go look at my partners profile, my gear for pvp isnt the best... but more often then not... its not my fault we lose
shes fun to play with though, so i aint gonna dump her from my team... maybe in season 3, but who knows
i dont have an interest in 5v5, not even a lil bit... so like i said, feel free to learn me a thing or two about the 5v5 scene, but other then that try to refrain from the arena jokes bout my team.... i havent done it seriously in a while... ive been concentrating on other aspects of the game
i know damn well full combat maces is good, so is muti, so will be ar/prep
but it doesnt mean i play the builds cuz they are good... i play for my enjoyment... my current build is not arena mode, feel free to mail me 15 bucks and ill gladly take a month of serious arena and show ya whats up :)
== -- == -- == -- ==
side note about how anti melee 1v1 my build is gonna be.... thats because casters arent an issue... warriors and rogues were.... now they arent either, while its not optimal for arena, the build can handle every damn thing thrown at it :)
Edited, Oct 26th 2007 12:29pm by mongoosexcore
Quote:
i wouldnt bring a guy on my arena whos specced badly, so while i get your saying 'if your full sub take it' im saying if arena is a concern, you wont be full sub... so i dunno if we just arent on the same wavelength or not... but i dont see why the argument for CD bein good at arena, when any rogue good for his marbles in arena prob isnt gonna be full sub
That I agree with.
I don't think the change to Sub are going to be enough. Is it going to make it suck less then before? No doubt... but I think it's still inferior to combat or mutilate, so why bother?
Still, that doesn't mean I don't understand that the changes are indeed designed to make sub more appealing to Arena - especially 5v5.
Rogue's main problem in 5v5 are mobility (with so many classes, snares/root are usually extremely common) and the fact that we're the squishiesh target in the game and thus, easy to focus down. Shadowstep and Cheat Death are direct answers to those problems.
The sub rogue's lack of damage and increase in control over combat might is also not a bad thing for 5v5. You usually want your rogue to be disrupting healers, and that's not about damage.
But we still don't have the mobility of warriors. We're still squishiers then them. And they still harass caster just as well if not better then we do. So yeah - I don't think this will change much.
Quote:
how many arena teams use a rogue, a warrior or both... particularly in 2v2 or 3v3?
With both? Damn near none.
Setup is also only good if your target is attacking you.
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go look at my partners profile, my gear for pvp isnt the best... but more often then not... its not my fault we lose
shes fun to play with though, so i aint gonna dump her from my team... maybe in season 3, but who knows
shes fun to play with though, so i aint gonna dump her from my team... maybe in season 3, but who knows
It's not a cheap shot, it's true.
I'm not saying you're a bad player, I'm saying you have no idea what happens in 1800+ games. Can you deny that?
Not so long ago you were talking about how rogue/war was a dangerous combo... I haven't seen rogue/wars in over 3 months. I just started playing with my crappy mage, and what do you know... In the 1500-1600s, it is actually a combo that shows up.
Your perception of what work and doesn't work is anchored around your own experience... but your experience is limited.
when i was sayin 'rogue, or war, or both' both wasnt meant for 2v2 :)
rogue/healer 2v2, warrior/healer 2v2 are the commonplace and you know it, and free CP versus those is well worth 3 points to me
and setup = very nice vs ar/prep rogue, ghostly+evasion when they evasion.. ill prob get a ton of free cp, to use a EA, KS, or rup when they lose evasion... who knows
and i member discussing that, i was saying it dangerous to rogue/pri teams... not to everything
thats just silly to think rogue/war can be druid heal/warr or twin frost mage
and i know more then you think..... just like ya said, im always thinking differently... my focus is more for the 1v1
being the king of 1v1 on my server > being 2k arena team... self glory over just being another high 2v2 rogue ^_^
rogue/healer 2v2, warrior/healer 2v2 are the commonplace and you know it, and free CP versus those is well worth 3 points to me
and setup = very nice vs ar/prep rogue, ghostly+evasion when they evasion.. ill prob get a ton of free cp, to use a EA, KS, or rup when they lose evasion... who knows
and i member discussing that, i was saying it dangerous to rogue/pri teams... not to everything
thats just silly to think rogue/war can be druid heal/warr or twin frost mage
and i know more then you think..... just like ya said, im always thinking differently... my focus is more for the 1v1
being the king of 1v1 on my server > being 2k arena team... self glory over just being another high 2v2 rogue ^_^
If I could just jump into the middle of this debate, I'd like to say one thing: *****.
If I were to say two things though - speculation is for weiners. This ability might get tweaked a few more times before 2.3 goes live. As such, getting into a detailed discussion seems kind of moot.
If I were to say two things though - speculation is for weiners. This ability might get tweaked a few more times before 2.3 goes live. As such, getting into a detailed discussion seems kind of moot.
my speculation wasn't deep, it's common sense that the new one is better....esp for arena
Nah I'm not discouraging people from talking about it, really, but it's not exactly worth arguing over...yet.
haha eon, but come on
when was the last good thread you saw like this one? this lil debate with me n tyr is fun to me atleast!
boring *** boards haha
when was the last good thread you saw like this one? this lil debate with me n tyr is fun to me atleast!
boring *** boards haha
Yeah sometimes I wish I could mod these boards like they do at EJ. but then again I probably wouldn't be able to get away with my various mustache ride and ***** posts.
Regardless, Sub is starting to look like a very handy support build for 5v5 teams that are already heavy on damage. I think that with Cheat death other classes will be more willing to invest in rogues. We commonly say that we're made out of paper. Now we're tear-resistant paper, at least.
Regardless, Sub is starting to look like a very handy support build for 5v5 teams that are already heavy on damage. I think that with Cheat death other classes will be more willing to invest in rogues. We commonly say that we're made out of paper. Now we're tear-resistant paper, at least.
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