haha this posts is gettin hella long, i would LOVE to chat with ya outside forums sometime hehe; while my views will stay and ill debate my side... but this is also how i change how i view things, long drawn out convos... regardless of whos right itll help me view this in a new light
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As for Sub's 5v5, I think you're wrong. Sub might end up being THE 5v5 spec now.
Shadowstep give great mobility, Cheat Death means that even a 4 man burn team is going to have some hesitation about picking the rogue only to have him CD and get healed to full during those 3 seconds... and lastly, Dirty Deeds is going to be awesome on burn team, where your target's hp will dip to 30% fairly quickly and your talent will ensure he stays there.
so lemme get this straight, you wanna bring a rogue, who gave up TONS of damage, and isnt particularly easier to heal (qr) or run people down (ff) for a move similar to intercept, but worse?
that seems to make no sense to me at all... why would ya take a step rogue over a ms warrior? for the cc? most of stunlocks cc is based off being un-interrupted, and in all honesty... using ANY arena offhand save mutilator, you can stunlock just the same (less damage though) using shiv
hell shiv on wound and stunlock to get him ready for an attack lol
going step gives rogues a poor intercept and CD if you value it over QR (i dont, not even close) at the cost of most damage? congratulations, you just make sub rogue seem like a ret pally if he had shorter cds hehe (thats a joke btw)
if your rogue is SERIOUSLY getting killed first, ill give it a maybe... but otherwise i dont see any reason to go full sub over ar/prep, ar prep is just as much stunlock with 2 chances to burst a guy to finish (ar+deeds=closing move to end all closing moves, even execute almost haha)
except ar/prep also has weapon specs (mace spec, wouldnt that be even BETTER cc then 41 sub hemo?) just curious on your thoughts there, i never did 5v5... my knowledge would be limited, but that sounds about right to me
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when i was discussing the 'window' of 3 seconds from cd... id imagine if your expecting a rogue to have CD you would cc the healer before youd finish then burn a cd to finish the job..... mirror match in particular, if a deeds rogue is on you and you proc cd... will those 3 seconds outweigh dirty deeds? how bout mortal strike, or wound poison, or the inc mortal strike ish shot from hunters?
i know the healer should be on you the whole time, but a talent thats procs 1 extra chance to stay alive a smidge more just meeehhhh... i think i can get past that honestly, if i had to kill it myself
its not that the ability is not good, but its not good enough i dont think... 3 points deep in, only a shadowstep rogue should want, and i can think of 5 situations in 2v2 or 3v3 id want a diff specced rogue for every 1 id want full shadowstep
ar/prep is gonna be the ruler of 2v2, might even be for 3v3... 5v5, like i said... i dont do it, i dont ever intend to... lemme know how step and CD work in 5v5, but in 2s and 3s im calling its not worth it at all
its like a elementalist mage, fire specced with IBar..... sure itll WORK, but full frost would work... better, outside of a small amount of occasions.... kinda get my meaning by that?
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They most certainly can if they don't make dumb choice like 5/5 oppo for one move or 2/2 sleight of hand.
You've said that sleight of hand was a great talent because it lowers crit rate by 2%... but a move that makes you unkillable for 3second isn't good? Moongoose, are you insane?
http://wowhead.com/?talent=fZZxMjoMGRoxst
was your linked example
you took convience camo over sleight? no setup, no master of sub? **** that.... ill take 3/3 setup for warr/rogue matches in 2v2 over cheat death any day of the week
and master of sub for any truly old school style stunlock, its 10% on opener, 10% on your 2 vanishs, 10% on any combat restealths you do
i see us being on 2 schools of thought here, mine being old school sub... big control and damage, while your relating it to the hunter survival tree, tricks and staying alive
and if your gonna take a satying alive talent like CD and choose 6% stealth only move speed over 2% of half-resilience... i rather not think about the kinda of goals your going for <3
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But if you've got 41 point in sub and you didn't take cheat death... you screwed up your spec.
unless you prefer some element of damage.... then setup is better for anti-warr/anti-rogue fightd (popular in 2v2 is it not?)
or unless your interested in something other then arena, say BG farm or world pvp/duels...then master of sub is for you as well
cheat death for survival, but that rogue better be ALSO qr, ff, and all those goodies, running a healer... then maybe its a good idea, and MAYBE with step in 5v5 (i dunno hwo that would go either way)
but its just points useful kinda ya, but i see setup being a better overall for those 3 points
free cp vs a warrior could make a world of difference, just a thought