Looks to me like Nooble is comparing Hemo vs SS. Combat Potency has been brought up a couple times. If you want to add talents, that's a whole different deal. Maybe the real comparison should be made between the two considering all the talents. If it's a typical 19/42 combat build, seems like the difference would be the lack of Lethality, 2/3 Imp Evis., Combat Potency, Aggression, and 1 pt in spec as compared to gaining in Nooble's build: serrated blades and the damage bonus when mob health < 35%. Both of those talents coupled with SnD really looks juicy. Not to mention that with armor penetrating gear that should make it scale even better.
I wish I had time to do this. But, I normally only ready the forums when I get a chance at work. I'm not asking anyone to undertake this task, only pointing out that combat potency shouldn't be thrown into the comparison without adding in all of the rest.
Edited, Oct 23rd 2007 8:26am by Glossu
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Hemo 2.3, MathcraftingFollow
i think i found a better way, i'll post it tomorrow after my midterm. it's an alternate build compared to yours. i'll bring the maths. i don't know that it's optimal for hemo, but i propose it will still beat out combat swords regardless. c u tomorrow on the field of mathcraft.
oh yea! and you are forgetting that your hemo charges will also be consumed by your raid party as well. you will be contributing still greater dps to the raid....
oh yea! and you are forgetting that your hemo charges will also be consumed by your raid party as well. you will be contributing still greater dps to the raid....
Actually, he didn't forget. That's what the 360 number is in the equation for Hemo. 36 damage per hit x 10 = 360. He considered all charges to be used, which would be extremely easy.
History of Dumb Ideas: Bypassing Combat
Or is it? Let's say for the sake of argument that you had an extremely slow MH for Hemo. Like, say, a Mace that [wowitem=32262]drops from Supremus[/wowitem] and runs at 2.8 speed, making it extremely strong with a non-normalized attack.
So, great. You have the Mace. The 'traditional' spec that we've all been looking at would run something like 11/27/23, picking up some good Deep Combat talents (in particular, Weapon Expertise and Blade Flurry). But what if we decided to abandon Combat more or less altogether?
Dropping Blade Flurry, Weapon Expertise and Mace Spec means we lose 2.5% passive haste (ignoring the multi-target use of Flurry for the sake of the argument), 2.5% -Dodge and 4% increased damage on crits. With those same 7 points we could pick up 30% damage bonus on special attack crits and points in Imp. Eviscerate or Premeditation, a third point in Setup and 10% more AP.
Hmm. This has possibilities. But we can go even further than that, actually. Drop DW Spec and Precision (yes, it hurts) and you could even pick up Seal Fate (!). Going past Deadliness in Subtlety seems like a bad idea (5 wasted points in the Premed tier, and 15% more AGI isn't really anything to write home about with how Rogue gear is itemized) but this does raise some interesting points about where the points should be invested. Seal Fate/Hemo raises some... interesting possibilities, to say the least, and while it stings like hell to lose out on DW Spec and Precision SF may make up for it.
Thoughts?
Or is it? Let's say for the sake of argument that you had an extremely slow MH for Hemo. Like, say, a Mace that [wowitem=32262]drops from Supremus[/wowitem] and runs at 2.8 speed, making it extremely strong with a non-normalized attack.
So, great. You have the Mace. The 'traditional' spec that we've all been looking at would run something like 11/27/23, picking up some good Deep Combat talents (in particular, Weapon Expertise and Blade Flurry). But what if we decided to abandon Combat more or less altogether?
Dropping Blade Flurry, Weapon Expertise and Mace Spec means we lose 2.5% passive haste (ignoring the multi-target use of Flurry for the sake of the argument), 2.5% -Dodge and 4% increased damage on crits. With those same 7 points we could pick up 30% damage bonus on special attack crits and points in Imp. Eviscerate or Premeditation, a third point in Setup and 10% more AP.
Hmm. This has possibilities. But we can go even further than that, actually. Drop DW Spec and Precision (yes, it hurts) and you could even pick up Seal Fate (!). Going past Deadliness in Subtlety seems like a bad idea (5 wasted points in the Premed tier, and 15% more AGI isn't really anything to write home about with how Rogue gear is itemized) but this does raise some interesting points about where the points should be invested. Seal Fate/Hemo raises some... interesting possibilities, to say the least, and while it stings like hell to lose out on DW Spec and Precision SF may make up for it.
Thoughts?
SF doesn't make up for the loss of Precision and DW Spec in terms of PvE. 
Eh... yeah, probably not, but Expertise and Mace Spec vs. 10% AP? Hmm.
theo's rush down build is best for pvp, my build in my hemo2.3 post is the best for raid i think...
Crit rate for a hemo build would just make SF perform miserably.
Can't speak to PVE, but for PVP I would think it would be better to pick up stuff farther down in Sub, or more talents in Assas like QR, FF, and both imp poisons and vile poisons IMO.
Edited, Oct 26th 2007 5:48pm by Vvillain
Can't speak to PVE, but for PVP I would think it would be better to pick up stuff farther down in Sub, or more talents in Assas like QR, FF, and both imp poisons and vile poisons IMO.
Edited, Oct 26th 2007 5:48pm by Vvillain
Ok, some have discussed energy in this thread and concluded that Relentless Strike is better than AR.
The discussion was mainly focusing on PVE though. I came to think that the answer might be different for PVP, especially from an arena perspective: I think it's better to have a huge amount of energy (AR) which is kind of an "I win" option to take down one opponent, leaving me and my partner in a 2v1 situation, rather than having a more constant amount of energy throughout the fight via Relentless Strike.
If I'm wrong, please explain me why you think so.
Here's the build I'd suggest with Hemo and AR:
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=f0eZhxV0rVzxM0oZxMjobhoo
nostra
The discussion was mainly focusing on PVE though. I came to think that the answer might be different for PVP, especially from an arena perspective: I think it's better to have a huge amount of energy (AR) which is kind of an "I win" option to take down one opponent, leaving me and my partner in a 2v1 situation, rather than having a more constant amount of energy throughout the fight via Relentless Strike.
If I'm wrong, please explain me why you think so.
Here's the build I'd suggest with Hemo and AR:
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=f0eZhxV0rVzxM0oZxMjobhoo
nostra
That build that you posted Nostraa is very similar to one I came up with. I'm not going to disagree with your build, but I did do mine a little different. Since the build has prep, I didn't find that imp gouge was worth it. I really use it most often as an interrupt, so I found the points to be more useful to fill out 3/3 setup and either nerves of steel or dirty deeds. Personally, I'm gonna go with dirty deeds.
Hemo got buffed again. It's now a 125% damage attack, as well as +36 for 10 hits after. Tested again on the PTR, and this build got me 1116.7 DPS with the same gear as the previous tests. Hemo is officially the hands down winner. The 25% increase applies to the increase in damage through attack power, so Hemo is going to scale ludicrously well. In a raid situation, I can almost guarantee Hemo is going to be the top build. Hemo was getting crits around 1300, and my average Hemo was 772. This build is going to rock at 80, since you can have 5/5 Lethality, and Adrenaline Rush.
So if I am reading your posts right Nooblestick, based on your gear level, a Hemo build > the CC CSwords?
If thats true, then the other question I must ask (since I haven't been following with changes) is how well does that build scale with higher level gear?
And one more question, how far is your DPS going to drop if another Hemo Rogue is in your party?
Edited, Nov 4th 2007 2:46am by ElementHuman
Edited, Nov 4th 2007 2:50am by ElementHuman
If thats true, then the other question I must ask (since I haven't been following with changes) is how well does that build scale with higher level gear?
And one more question, how far is your DPS going to drop if another Hemo Rogue is in your party?
Edited, Nov 4th 2007 2:46am by ElementHuman
Edited, Nov 4th 2007 2:50am by ElementHuman
In a 25man raid, 2 hemo rogues shouldn't have too many left over charges, unless you don't bring much physical dps. My guild generally raids with 2-4 rogues, 1-2 dps warr, 2-5 hunters, 2-4 tanks(depending on the boss, etc). Smallest # there is 7, but have had as many as 12 in a raid. 7 probably isn't enough to knock off all 20 charges the 2 rogues would be putting up, but i would bet 10 wouldn't have any problem.
I can use up about 40% of the charges spamming Hemo, so we'll say 40% of your melee DPSers is the top end of hemo Rogues. 10 melee DPS, 4 hemo rogues max.
Really most raids would not have to worry about that.
As an aside though, would hunters use up charges, even if they are ranged?
As an aside though, would hunters use up charges, even if they are ranged?
so would the combat cycle just replace SS with hemo, and keep your rotation the same?
IE
(gar)1point, (s&d), Hemox2or1(if relentless procs or not), (s&d), 5xhemo, (rupture) > repeat?
Edited, Nov 7th 2007 5:16pm by odnet
IE
(gar)1point, (s&d), Hemox2or1(if relentless procs or not), (s&d), 5xhemo, (rupture) > repeat?
Edited, Nov 7th 2007 5:16pm by odnet
hmm
lets see, the cycle is 30 energy cheaper
but no potency
its prob the same, regardless if you got relentless or not (if you got 2piece T4 anyways)
1s/5r
but im not fully sure, ill let u know next time i fight a boss
lets see, the cycle is 30 energy cheaper
but no potency
its prob the same, regardless if you got relentless or not (if you got 2piece T4 anyways)
1s/5r
but im not fully sure, ill let u know next time i fight a boss
yeah I have 2 T4, I generally only have 2 points in SD to keep it up whilst getting to rupture.
With 2 pieces of T4, your cycle as Swords/Maces/Fists should be 1s/5r.
cool thanks man Im stoked to try this out.
Im very curious if dirty deeds will be helpful.
Edited, Nov 7th 2007 7:10pm by odnet
Im very curious if dirty deeds will be helpful.
Edited, Nov 7th 2007 7:10pm by odnet
What difference will it make if instead of sword spec you manage to get 4 points into deadliness? I am assuming it will be an overall loss, but I am just curious. 8% AP will be handy, especially if Hemo scales with AP.(no idea if it does but it doesn't seem to) Has anyone tried it w/out Sword Spec and 4/5 Deadliness?
I read something about it being normalized to 2.4 or 2.6 what does this mean? total newb question rate me down if you need to, but I know you guys are the ones to ask.
All Credit goes to quoted poster:
Pretty much.
In answer to your earlier question - normalization is when you use a set value to determine the AP modifier on the attack. 'Normalized' attacks all use a unified value - 2.4 for one-handers except daggers, 1.7 for daggers - to calculate the bonus damage AP applies to the attack. Unnormalized attacks just use the weapon speed - this catergory includes the Warrior Slam (channeled attack) and previous Rogue Hemo.
The reason for normalization is that, way back when in the Times of Yore, you were better off using a weapon with much lower DPS but slower speed over a slightly faster but much higher DPS epic. This had the... unfortunate side effect of making pretty much every Epic weapon drop in Molten Core inferior to Blues you could pick up via questing or just doing level 60 instances. In many cases certain _greens_ were superior to epic weapons because of how important speed was with all the instant attacks.
Normalization goes in, speed becomes much, much, much less important.
RPZip wrote:
ArundelvalEstar wrote:
So Hemo is still leaps and bounds better at this point, correct?
Pretty much.
In answer to your earlier question - normalization is when you use a set value to determine the AP modifier on the attack. 'Normalized' attacks all use a unified value - 2.4 for one-handers except daggers, 1.7 for daggers - to calculate the bonus damage AP applies to the attack. Unnormalized attacks just use the weapon speed - this catergory includes the Warrior Slam (channeled attack) and previous Rogue Hemo.
The reason for normalization is that, way back when in the Times of Yore, you were better off using a weapon with much lower DPS but slower speed over a slightly faster but much higher DPS epic. This had the... unfortunate side effect of making pretty much every Epic weapon drop in Molten Core inferior to Blues you could pick up via questing or just doing level 60 instances. In many cases certain _greens_ were superior to epic weapons because of how important speed was with all the instant attacks.
Normalization goes in, speed becomes much, much, much less important.
Arundel
Dude, you are a guru (thank me later lol)
Dude, you are a guru (thank me later lol)
Looking over the 2.3 patch just a few minutes back I noticed that the increase in damage from Hemo from 10 to 36 seems to be gone. Was this known already or am I hugely mistaken? The 125% damage that it was buffed with is still there though...
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