Hemo 2.3, MathcraftingFollow

So, how will the new Hemo work out? Let's do some math and find out.

Proposed build, 11/27/23.

With this build, we get most of the Combat goodies. Only 4/5 weapon spec can be taken so we can pick up Preparation. More threat dumps will be very nice in long battles where you will be threat capped. Losing one point in Sword Spec will decrease your DPS only very slightly, while dropping all your threat another time will increase it significantly. If you're not having trouble with capping threat, feel free to drop Prep for that last point in Sword Spec. There's not much other use for Prep in this build, since we don't have AR.

So, how about Hemo damage? Since it's reduced to 10 charges, you can assume 100% of the debuff will be used 100% of the time, for +360 damage on Hemo. So, our Hemo formula becomes:

Base Hemo Damage == Average Dmg. + AP / 14 * Wpn. Speed + 360

We'll assume a Season Two Sword and 2500 AP raid buffed (pretty easy to attain in SSC/TK guilds).

Base Hemo Damage == 254 + 2500 / 14 * 2.6 + 360 == 718 + 360

So, average damage is as follows. We'll assume 25% crit.

75% Chance: 0718 + 360 == 0808.5
25% Chance: 1436 + 360 == 0449.0
Average Hemo --------- == 1257.5

Not too shabby. It will actually be slightly higher than this, since the extra damage does gain some from crit, but will be consumed by things with very low crit like pets and tanks, so we'll assume a 0% crit to be sure we don't overestimate.

Now, Energy Efficiency. 1257.5 / 35 == 35.9 Damage:Energy Ratio. Let's see how that compares to Combat Swords.

Base SS Damage == (254 + 2500 / 14 * 2.4 + 98) * 1.1 * 1.06 == 910

75% Chance: 0910 == 0682.50
25% Chance: 2093 == 0523.25
Average SS ----- == 1205.75

Woah! With 2500 AP and 25% crit, Hemo straight up outdamages SS! That's with 0/5 Lethality too. Once Dirty Deeds kicks in at low health, Hemo is seriously going to destroy SS in terms of damage. This change might just open up Subtlety as the new raid tree. I'm definitely going to pop onto the PTR and test this out.

Since Hemo doesn't scale as well with Crit, let's see about higher crit levels, to see where SS starts to beat it out.

30% crit Hemo: 754 + 0538 == 1292
40% crit Hemo: 646 + 0718 == 1364
45% crit Hemo: 592 + 0808 == 1400

30% crit SS: 637 + 627 == 1264
40% crit SS: 546 + 837 == 1383
45% crit SS: 500 + 941 == 1441

So, we can see how SS starts to pull away as your crit goes up. Somewhere around 37% they're equal with these stats. In all cases, the Damage:Energy ratio of Hemo is much better. I'll be testing this on the PTR today and will post my results with various builds.

Edited, Oct 20th 2007 11:39am by Nooblestick

I think this is mongoosexcore's wet dream...

Edit:Stuck it all in a new post...

Edited, Oct 20th 2007 12:49pm by Flubgaurd

If I've understood this right as a Raiding build couldn't you just drop most of the Sub Filler talents since you won't really be needing them over longer fights? Like for instance, taking the points from Camo/MoD & putting them into Opportunity. Drop the two points in Dirty Deeds & put them into WE & Sword Spec. like 11/28/22or 11/28/22

Does imp eviscerate, ruthlessness, and relentless strikes really beat 5/5 deadliness or filling combat to AR..?

I just feel like it might be a waste of points to take imp evisc and ruthlessness. Mostly imp evisc.

Ok, so 10 minutes isn't feasible to do without potions. I could go indefinitely if I stunned/bandaged/etc, but it would ***** up the DPS calculations. So, I'll do a couple of 4 minute tests.

11/27/23

Test #1: 1014.4 DPS
Test #2: 1045.0 DPS
Test #3: 1000.2 DPS
Average DPS: 1019.9

19/42/0

Test #1: 1025.4 DPS
Test #2: 1059.1 DPS
Test #3: 1054.2 DPS
Average DPS: 1046.2

So, we have Combat Swords winning out ever so slightly. About 20 DPS can be attributed to the presence of Murder in Swords, which will not effect most raid bosses. That brings the DPS gap to about 6, which would be overtaken by Hemo's charges being used up more efficiently.

The Winner:

Inconclusive. With no buffs, Combat's going to continue outdamaging Hemo. The 20% damage bonus was active 100% of the time, which it won't be in a real situation. With raid buffs, Hemo will get stronger, but how much? Impossible to test by myself, so unless somebody has a Pally and Warrior to come buff me while I test, I can't draw a conclusion. All we have right now is my math showing that Hemo beats SS in damage, but Combat Potency has yet to be accounted for.

Alternate Builds:
5/26/30

Test #1: ...
Test #2: ...
Test #3: ...
Average DPS: ...

More data to come. You can check my armory profile to see my gear, the only difference is that I'm wearing T4 shoulders and a saberclaw talisman on the PTR.

My observations thus far. It's very easy to keep the 1s/5r cycle going as Hemo, though occasionally I end up with a couple seconds of no SnD, I'd say in about 10% of the cycles. As combat swords, it's slightly less common, but the amount of time without SnD can be quite long on those times. I'm also only using up about 3-6 charges (usually about 5) before I reapply Hemo, keeping SnD up nearly 100% of the time. This means that this DPS measurement is slightly low, missing out on a couple hundred damage per hemo.

Testing other builds will resume later today possibly.

Edited, Oct 20th 2007 4:02pm by Nooblestick

Sucks. The loss of Relentless Strikes kills any build for PvE.

Can't wait for you mathathlete to figure out if this is good for pve and then focus on pvp :P.

Also nooble, you seems to be comparing the damage of Hemo vs Combat... but do you take into account the other melee class also getting buffed by Hemo? If you're using Hemo as your main attack, keeping the debuff up even with 5-6 melee class should be feasible... You might nerf your damage, but if you end up giving more to the raid then '1 more combat rogue', every pve guild might end up with a dedicated Hemo Rogue.

Those 30 charges were so pointless for PvP. Even in 5's. 15 charges w/ 26 more damage are pretty valuable in arenas, esp in 3's and 5's. 1 hemo rogue in a raid, like Tyr said, could be nice to have.

As of the patch both points are equally valuable. It works out to 1.25% increase per point in what is effectively +hit except it works on _all_ attacks, as opposed to +hit only being effective on white damage. Point-for-point it's one of the better talents Rogues get now, although it certainly was rather obscene in its original incarnation as well.



I have never in my entire life understood why people hesitate to get Murder. The vast majority of boss mobs are effected by it (in SSC it won't work on Hydross and Lurker but will on everything else, and in TK it works on everything but Void Reaver) and you're going to get minimal (or not) benefit out of Imp. Eviscerate on anything but trash mobs.



I'm hesitant to consider anything about the Damage:Energy rate of Hemo vs. SS if only because of Combat Potency. Admittedly it forces you into some terribly narrow weapon selections, which Hemo would open up (in terms of off-spec weapons there are quite a few slow ones that would make decent offhands, and with Combat Potency out of the way and using DP on the offhand the speed doesn't really matter beyond initial stacking), but it's a fantastic source of Energy generation which _should_ (going on instinct, not hard math here) compensate for the energy difference between the two. Of course Hemo is more consistent, which should make for 'cleaner' cycles than you'd see with Combat's somewhat more erratic energy generation (or Mutilates somewhat erratic CP generation).



Hmm.

True about them not being up, but they are being _used_ even if it's not showing up on your personal DPS. While builds that rely on that strategy are somewhat less effective when raid DPS is split (killing adds, for example) as long as the charges are used by _someone_ you could consider that additional bonus part of your own DPS.

I'm pretty sure that's it. You don't want to blow off all your energy too fast. I think the main goal of a hemo raiding rogue is to keep it up at ALL times. With some 10 other melee dps or so those charges go down like this, so the hemo rogue has to make sure ALL charges are used so as not to waste any (cause there are only 15 charges now, and they will run out in a couple of seconds or less).

Edited, Oct 21st 2007 1:08am by EliminatorX

10 charges, 15 seconds.

Blasted lands, north of the portal. Servants of something or another. They will never die from normal whacking on them, so you can get nice, long, uninterrupted tests.