It's on the o-board...
Retribution Threat Change
After further discussion and testing we’ve decided to add threat reduction deep in the paladin's retribution tree. Fanaticism will now reduce threat caused by all actions by 6/12/18/24/30%, in addition to its current effect.
Finally Ret can finally acheive it's potential uberness!
I wonder how many of you haters are going to re-spec...
Edited, Oct 19th 2007 11:13am by chood
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Retribution getting threat reduction talent...Follow
about 4 days behind. >_>
already being discussed in the 2.3 changes thread.
already being discussed in the 2.3 changes thread.
Well holy sheep sh'it.
Grats for the retadins.
Grats for the retadins.
Bode - 100 Holy Paladin - Lightbringer
KTurner wrote:
about 4 days behind. >_>
already being discussed in the 2.3 changes thread.
already being discussed in the 2.3 changes thread.
Oops, I knew it was old news. I just didn't see any discussion on it.
I should have looked around...sorry
Well...uh...anyway...I think threat reduction deserves its own thead...lol
Then i'll repost my feelings here, as i kinda agree it is deserving of its own thread :P
Retadins wanting the threat reduction, or just being HAPPY with the reduction are too focused on being real DPS contributors which isnt the problem with the tree.
The problem is utility, which they have very very little of and this doesnt fix it. They arent gonna be brought for leet DPS, if a raid wants DPS they will bring a true DPSer.
More blessings is not utility since most 25 man raids have enough healadins with BoK to cover everything. Judgements are questionable since i am unsure of the mana issues classes like mages or hunters have.
Retadins need something that can make a raid leader say "I wish we could get a ret pally in on this run." Druid BR, Innervate and Aura are great things. Enh Shamans windfury totem is a beautiful thing. Melee DPS LOVES getting WF and LotP, thats all the utility required to make a class wanted and thats what the paladin class needs, imo.
Just toss them a blessing deep into the ret tree that people would want. dunno what could be that hard about it.
edit
I should add something i just thought of. I have heard from unofficial sources ZA is going to be very hybrid friendly and judging by the loot tables its gonna be a rather good place to raid. So maybe there is a little more to the story than what we see.
Edited, Oct 19th 2007 9:02am by KTurner
Retadins wanting the threat reduction, or just being HAPPY with the reduction are too focused on being real DPS contributors which isnt the problem with the tree.
The problem is utility, which they have very very little of and this doesnt fix it. They arent gonna be brought for leet DPS, if a raid wants DPS they will bring a true DPSer.
More blessings is not utility since most 25 man raids have enough healadins with BoK to cover everything. Judgements are questionable since i am unsure of the mana issues classes like mages or hunters have.
Retadins need something that can make a raid leader say "I wish we could get a ret pally in on this run." Druid BR, Innervate and Aura are great things. Enh Shamans windfury totem is a beautiful thing. Melee DPS LOVES getting WF and LotP, thats all the utility required to make a class wanted and thats what the paladin class needs, imo.
Just toss them a blessing deep into the ret tree that people would want. dunno what could be that hard about it.
edit
I should add something i just thought of. I have heard from unofficial sources ZA is going to be very hybrid friendly and judging by the loot tables its gonna be a rather good place to raid. So maybe there is a little more to the story than what we see.
Edited, Oct 19th 2007 9:02am by KTurner
I agree with you, they only thing they offer now is CS to refresh judgements. Well that and looking cool.
Leaving the 3% crit bonus deep in the tree would be a big plus...
But I like your idea of a blessing deep in the tree even more.
What about a blessing that reflects spell damage back at they the caster. Tanks would love it, especially Pally tanks
But that may not be enough, you'll only be directly benefiting a few people and even then it situational
I don't what would you propose?
Leaving the 3% crit bonus deep in the tree would be a big plus...
But I like your idea of a blessing deep in the tree even more.
What about a blessing that reflects spell damage back at they the caster. Tanks would love it, especially Pally tanks
But that may not be enough, you'll only be directly benefiting a few people and even then it situational
I don't what would you propose?
Instinct says a melee DPS blessing since that makes sense with the tree, but ya know melee DPSers (rogues and warriors) are already top dogs on DPS charts and i dont think they need any exclusive buff. Would also be nice if it was somehow deisrable and useful in arena.
Maybe a chance on hit/spellcast to gain rage/energy/mana/spelldmg for x seconds
Kinda like a darkmoon card.
I dunno, just pulled it out of my ***.
Maybe a chance on hit/spellcast to gain rage/energy/mana/spelldmg for x seconds
Kinda like a darkmoon card.
I dunno, just pulled it out of my ***.
Scholar
24 posts
Deep Ret talented Blessing, for the sake of arguement, call it Blessing of Fury
Increases all damage by 3%, causes all healing to be increased by 1%
Now you have a valuable 3rd blessing to go along with kings and each class's primary blessing, and guess what? Only a retadin can bring it.
Increases all damage by 3%, causes all healing to be increased by 1%
Now you have a valuable 3rd blessing to go along with kings and each class's primary blessing, and guess what? Only a retadin can bring it.
KTurner wrote:
Maybe a chance on hit/spellcast to gain rage/energy/mana/spelldmg for x seconds
That's a good idea, beneficial to everyone too.
nonwittyusername wrote:
Deep Ret talented Blessing, for the sake of arguement, call it Blessing of Fury
Increases all damage by 3%, causes all healing to be increased by 1%
Make it +5% to all damage and healing
This is turning into another "what could they do to increase Ret raid viability" thread. I made one about a month ago this is what I thought would work:
1) Add a cast time and increase duration of Repentance to 30 seconds, have a reduced or no cooldown, and have it effect Demons and Undead as well. Effectively a sheep, this will increase Retadin PvP and PvE viability by giving them a cc ability, making Repentance 10 seconds for PvP like the other cc spells/abilities.
2) Introduce a spell that does the opposite of RF, instead of increasing threat by an amount, it reduces threat by an amount, maybe 15%, you can't have both up at the same time. I was considering this to be a talent, but it would wreck any attempts for the Retadin to tank while leveling up, this leaves the Paladin open to do either.
3) Add an interrupt effect to CS, keeping it's current cd.
Now threat reduction has occured, though not as I would like (I'd much rather have it as a spell than a talent) still hoping for one of the other 2.
Quote:
1) Add a cast time and increase duration of Repentance to 30 seconds, have a reduced or no cooldown, and have it effect Demons and Undead as well. Effectively a sheep, this will increase Retadin PvP and PvE viability by giving them a cc ability, making Repentance 10 seconds for PvP like the other cc spells/abilities.
2) Introduce a spell that does the opposite of RF, instead of increasing threat by an amount, it reduces threat by an amount, maybe 15%, you can't have both up at the same time. I was considering this to be a talent, but it would wreck any attempts for the Retadin to tank while leveling up, this leaves the Paladin open to do either.
3) Add an interrupt effect to CS, keeping it's current cd.
Now threat reduction has occured, though not as I would like (I'd much rather have it as a spell than a talent) still hoping for one of the other 2.
The Honorable CapJack wrote:
This is turning into another "what could they do to increase Ret raid viability" thread. I made one about a month ago this is what I thought would work:
1) Add a cast time and increase duration of Repentance to 30 seconds, have a reduced or no cooldown, and have it effect Demons and Undead as well. Effectively a sheep, this will increase Retadin PvP and PvE viability by giving them a cc ability, making Repentance 10 seconds for PvP like the other cc spells/abilities.
2) Introduce a spell that does the opposite of RF, instead of increasing threat by an amount, it reduces threat by an amount, maybe 15%, you can't have both up at the same time. I was considering this to be a talent, but it would wreck any attempts for the Retadin to tank while leveling up, this leaves the Paladin open to do either.
3) Add an interrupt effect to CS, keeping it's current cd.
Now threat reduction has occured, though not as I would like (I'd much rather have it as a spell than a talent) still hoping for one of the other 2.
Quote:
1) Add a cast time and increase duration of Repentance to 30 seconds, have a reduced or no cooldown, and have it effect Demons and Undead as well. Effectively a sheep, this will increase Retadin PvP and PvE viability by giving them a cc ability, making Repentance 10 seconds for PvP like the other cc spells/abilities.
2) Introduce a spell that does the opposite of RF, instead of increasing threat by an amount, it reduces threat by an amount, maybe 15%, you can't have both up at the same time. I was considering this to be a talent, but it would wreck any attempts for the Retadin to tank while leveling up, this leaves the Paladin open to do either.
3) Add an interrupt effect to CS, keeping it's current cd.
Now threat reduction has occured, though not as I would like (I'd much rather have it as a spell than a talent) still hoping for one of the other 2.
I dont see how any of those would help. We all know the repentence wouldnt work on a raid boss, less threat doesnt help utility, and adding an interrupt effect to CS helps them in PvP, but not PvE. Already have enough interrupts from other classes.
Why would you use a sheep-like ability on a raid boss? That's for trash utility, and an interrupt effect is always nice.
You want some ground-breaking OMFG thing that isn't going to happen. They tried the more raid dps thing, that didn't work. Multiple seals/judgements I don't see happening, it's breaking a fundamental Paladin rule. All the tooltips would have to be adjusted "...only one judgement per Paladin can effect the target, unless you are Ret then you can put on so many" or something along those lines and Bliz is too lazy to change something like that. It's like allowing Rogues to do more than 1 poison on their weapon.
There's nothing else that can be done that isn't gimmicky or over-powered or ridiculous that will help out. My changes help out in PvP and PvE, and are relatively simple enough to be possible.
You want some ground-breaking OMFG thing that isn't going to happen. They tried the more raid dps thing, that didn't work. Multiple seals/judgements I don't see happening, it's breaking a fundamental Paladin rule. All the tooltips would have to be adjusted "...only one judgement per Paladin can effect the target, unless you are Ret then you can put on so many" or something along those lines and Bliz is too lazy to change something like that. It's like allowing Rogues to do more than 1 poison on their weapon.
There's nothing else that can be done that isn't gimmicky or over-powered or ridiculous that will help out. My changes help out in PvP and PvE, and are relatively simple enough to be possible.
The Honorable CapJack wrote:
Why would you use a sheep-like ability on a raid boss? That's for trash utility, and an interrupt effect is always nice.
You want some ground-breaking OMFG thing that isn't going to happen. They tried the more raid dps thing, that didn't work. Multiple seals/judgements I don't see happening, it's breaking a fundamental Paladin rule. All the tooltips would have to be adjusted "...only one judgement per Paladin can effect the target, unless you are Ret then you can put on so many" or something along those lines and Bliz is too lazy to change something like that. It's like allowing Rogues to do more than 1 poison on their weapon.
There's nothing else that can be done that isn't gimmicky or over-powered or ridiculous that will help out. My changes help out in PvP and PvE, and are relatively simple enough to be possible.
You want some ground-breaking OMFG thing that isn't going to happen. They tried the more raid dps thing, that didn't work. Multiple seals/judgements I don't see happening, it's breaking a fundamental Paladin rule. All the tooltips would have to be adjusted "...only one judgement per Paladin can effect the target, unless you are Ret then you can put on so many" or something along those lines and Bliz is too lazy to change something like that. It's like allowing Rogues to do more than 1 poison on their weapon.
There's nothing else that can be done that isn't gimmicky or over-powered or ridiculous that will help out. My changes help out in PvP and PvE, and are relatively simple enough to be possible.
Raid viability isnt about trash and 5 mans, capjack. Hell its hardly even about kara. What you described would have zero effect whatsoever on raid viabiltiy.
edit: im beginning to wonder if viability is the wrong word for this entirely. I mean, you can make a lot of sub par groups work in this game. As of now a ret pally is viable, just not desirable. If the rest of the group picks up the slack you will down bosses. Maybe I should use desirable instead.
Edited, Oct 19th 2007 12:05pm by KTurner
I dunno man... I just don't see anything that a ret paladin can bring to the table that isn't already brought to the table better. Obviously the raids are clearable without them, so it's not like they are or will be essential to anybody. I guess they should just stick to heals and tanking.
I know what you mean :P
****, we pay our 15$ (30$ in my case) a month to blizzard so their developers can figure this stuff out for us lol.
****, we pay our 15$ (30$ in my case) a month to blizzard so their developers can figure this stuff out for us lol.
80% of the community of paladins are holy, another 15% are prot. This change might make a FEW more go ret, but it won't have much impact for the class as a whole. I'd be willing to lay money on it.
Dilbrt wrote:
80% of the community of paladins are holy, another 15% are prot. This change might make a FEW more go ret, but it won't have much impact for the class as a whole. I'd be willing to lay money on it.
Probably true if you're talking about raiders. Not so sure if you mean paladins as a whole. I've encountered a lot of ret paladins in PuGs and whatnot.
Quote:
All the tooltips would have to be adjusted "...only one judgement per Paladin can effect the target, unless you are Ret then you can put on so many" or something along those lines and Bliz is too lazy to change something like that. It's like allowing Rogues to do more than 1 poison on their weapon.
lol tooltips. still waiting for all my current imp. spell tooltips to give accurate readings or how about in the buff bar. at least rogues can dual wield!
Quote:
80% of the community of paladins are holy, another 15% are prot. This change might make a FEW more go ret, but it won't have much impact for the class as a whole. I'd be willing to lay money on it.
all about pvp. so many people use BG and arena to gear up for pve. i see lots of Retties in the first couple weeks after the patch, then the nerf will hit.
I agree that this change will make little difference in what capjack wants to call 'raid desirability'' since there will be nothing a ret pally can bring that a holy or prot pally or 'pure dps' class can't.
however as my ret pally (lvl 53) is getting closer to 70 I am very excited to see this change since it will at least improve our raid contributions (admittedly maybe not to the lvl of a rogue or mage in dps - i usually beat them still at 53, but i know people say that changes in the 60's).
some specal blessing or more group friendly aura deep in the tree would be nice, but if it doesn't happen i will at least be happy that when this pally gets to 70 i won't have to switch to my healadin main (muralimohan @ kael'thas... finally almost keyed for kara) if i want to join for a raid, which is what i've been expecting.
At least i will have some choice now.
Edited, Oct 20th 2007 9:09am by toolofjesus
however as my ret pally (lvl 53) is getting closer to 70 I am very excited to see this change since it will at least improve our raid contributions (admittedly maybe not to the lvl of a rogue or mage in dps - i usually beat them still at 53, but i know people say that changes in the 60's).
some specal blessing or more group friendly aura deep in the tree would be nice, but if it doesn't happen i will at least be happy that when this pally gets to 70 i won't have to switch to my healadin main (muralimohan @ kael'thas... finally almost keyed for kara) if i want to join for a raid, which is what i've been expecting.
At least i will have some choice now.
Edited, Oct 20th 2007 9:09am by toolofjesus
Are Retribution Paladins putting out enough DPS to require such a talent? 
Aren't Retribution Paladins at the bottom of the damage meter?
Aren't Retribution Paladins at the bottom of the damage meter?
Please "talk up" if your comprehension white-shifts. I will use simple-happy language-words to help you understand.
um, i may not be the one to talk... lvl 70 is healadin and retadin is only 53 at the moment. so if someone with a higher lvl ret answers differently listen to him.
through the 40's and into the 50's i've had little problem topping the charts (yes an occassional mage has beat me, but i've beat mages just as often). at this lvl definitely retadins are nowhere near the bottom.
on my 70 healadin I have only grouped with retadins twice. both times i was super impressed since the first one was at the top (slave pens) and the second time he was in second place behind a mage (shadow labs). both runs were among the smoothest i''ve run. the second one was OT so he wasn't worrying about threat so much. obvously he won't be able to do that as easily with the new changes... not if he takes the threat reduction anyway.
again this is just my limited experience. we don't have any 70 retadins in my guild and i tend to group mainly with my guild.
through the 40's and into the 50's i've had little problem topping the charts (yes an occassional mage has beat me, but i've beat mages just as often). at this lvl definitely retadins are nowhere near the bottom.
on my 70 healadin I have only grouped with retadins twice. both times i was super impressed since the first one was at the top (slave pens) and the second time he was in second place behind a mage (shadow labs). both runs were among the smoothest i''ve run. the second one was OT so he wasn't worrying about threat so much. obvously he won't be able to do that as easily with the new changes... not if he takes the threat reduction anyway.
again this is just my limited experience. we don't have any 70 retadins in my guild and i tend to group mainly with my guild.
Ret pallies end game tended to be able to do DPS it was more an issue of threat forcing them to hold back in PvE settings, especially raiding. You compare a ret paladin who only has 30% bosalv as a threat reduction versus say a Fury Warrior with 25% from Berserker stance stacked with 30% from Bosalv, pretty easy to see who is going to have to hold back more. Especially on fights like Leotheras where threat is reset every 30-45 seconds.
They also have to stack +attack, +hit, + crit and mana. Which means they were a ***** to gear. From personal experience a holy paladin who built himself a full Kara ret set switched over and raided ret a couple times with us in Gruul/Mag (instances we have on farm) and the +3% crit and ability to keep judgments up wasn't impressive enough to keep him along.
Hopefully raising the threat cap they can pump out the damage necessary to make them worthwhile. Fine by me personally. DPS is already an oversaturated feel and Ret will still be a black sheep that will still face very limited raid viability, one or two per 25 man raid guild. Lessens competition as a holy paladin and there will be a lot of people speccing ret and fighting for raid spots and a lot sitting with thumbs up their *** looking for raid slots just like Hunters or Rogues.
They also have to stack +attack, +hit, + crit and mana. Which means they were a ***** to gear. From personal experience a holy paladin who built himself a full Kara ret set switched over and raided ret a couple times with us in Gruul/Mag (instances we have on farm) and the +3% crit and ability to keep judgments up wasn't impressive enough to keep him along.
Hopefully raising the threat cap they can pump out the damage necessary to make them worthwhile. Fine by me personally. DPS is already an oversaturated feel and Ret will still be a black sheep that will still face very limited raid viability, one or two per 25 man raid guild. Lessens competition as a holy paladin and there will be a lot of people speccing ret and fighting for raid spots and a lot sitting with thumbs up their *** looking for raid slots just like Hunters or Rogues.
Bode - 100 Holy Paladin - Lightbringer
I don't understand the idea that ret pallies have no raid utility. There are two scenarios in which you will find a ret pally:
1) You have enough pallies to cover every blessing, in which case ret is rendered useless, but this means you're running 4 other pallies (one probably being Prot).
2) You've got 3 or less pallies.
In the former situation this allows the ret pally to keep up crusader, light and wisdom. It's slightly more significant than at first glance.
In the latter situation you'll get much the same thing, although the retadin will also provide an additional blessing. In general past the 2 holy pallies and the prot pally we always bring to raid I would love to get a retadin in after 2.3. And this is coming from a prot pally/lock. Anyone that has seen me go on knows I have little love for ret in the past, but it's looking pretty good right now.
1) You have enough pallies to cover every blessing, in which case ret is rendered useless, but this means you're running 4 other pallies (one probably being Prot).
2) You've got 3 or less pallies.
In the former situation this allows the ret pally to keep up crusader, light and wisdom. It's slightly more significant than at first glance.
In the latter situation you'll get much the same thing, although the retadin will also provide an additional blessing. In general past the 2 holy pallies and the prot pally we always bring to raid I would love to get a retadin in after 2.3. And this is coming from a prot pally/lock. Anyone that has seen me go on knows I have little love for ret in the past, but it's looking pretty good right now.
Sanctity Aura on a prot pally tank is pretty sweet. I mean +10% damage on holy spells, that's what 19% more threat from holy damage?
Aside from that, they can fill a blessing spot assuming you have other healers besides holy pallies. I think they are far from useless.
Edited, Oct 20th 2007 1:00pm by ramera
Aside from that, they can fill a blessing spot assuming you have other healers besides holy pallies. I think they are far from useless.
Edited, Oct 20th 2007 1:00pm by ramera
So level 70 Retribution Paladins do put out a solid amount of damage?
At the moment my own level 60 Retribution Paladin is making me cry everytime I try to level him. He's not exactly decked in Outland epics, but he's got a couple of nice items.
Armory link.
It just seems so mana inefficient when I'm used to a Feral Druid and Affliction Warlock.
At the moment my own level 60 Retribution Paladin is making me cry everytime I try to level him. He's not exactly decked in Outland epics, but he's got a couple of nice items.
Armory link.
It just seems so mana inefficient when I'm used to a Feral Druid and Affliction Warlock.
Please "talk up" if your comprehension white-shifts. I will use simple-happy language-words to help you understand.
Scholar
35 posts
There aren't going to be alot of raid leaders saying "Hey, Ret paladins are now raid viable since they'll have reduced threat. Let's bring some along!" I think alot of people realize this, so the mass exodus to a Retadin spec will most likely be nonexistant.
If they were to give the poor Retadins some better itemization, a better form of CC like CapJack suggested, and perhaps a damage boost to help them compete with rogues and mages, I could understand bringing them along in raids. Until then, I don't think the 2.3 patch buff is going to do much for Retadins in the end.
Edit: Perhaps also a unique buff deep in the Ret tree that would enhance their own DPS or give the raid a little extra juice in a certain area. I really haven't thought much about it.
Edited, Oct 20th 2007 11:31pm by cnewlin
If they were to give the poor Retadins some better itemization, a better form of CC like CapJack suggested, and perhaps a damage boost to help them compete with rogues and mages, I could understand bringing them along in raids. Until then, I don't think the 2.3 patch buff is going to do much for Retadins in the end.
Edit: Perhaps also a unique buff deep in the Ret tree that would enhance their own DPS or give the raid a little extra juice in a certain area. I really haven't thought much about it.
Edited, Oct 20th 2007 11:31pm by cnewlin
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