Mutilate buildFollow

Folks;

I've been leveling up my rogue and love it. I took the advice of a guide here and leveled to 62 combat swords. I like that, but find that I am not a huge fan of CS -> SnD -> SS x 5 -> Evis. The constant SS spam seems (to me) somehow... not roguish. It does feel good when having to bandaid to do a blind -> Bandage or Gouge -> Bandage (good as in roguish). I also stink in PvP and want to get better at it, but spamming SS is not very PvPish and since I have swords, backstabby is not an option. I was thinking of going the mutilate route and grabbing another dagger (I have sword in mainhand and dagger in offhand). My question is this... on mutilate, it says you can attack with both daggers from behind and that the target is poisoned (I assume this means deadly poison or something). How do you get behind the target when it is poisoned? Gouge would break because of the ticks of the poison, right?

Thanks...

Dethknell... rogue in training

Part of your problem might be that you're not using two swords for a combat swords build. [:duh:]

You'd also do better if you grabbed 2/2 Weapon Expertise (and probably 2/2 Endurance) instead of putting 4 points into Deflection. This is especially mind-boggling because, from the looks of it, you don't plan to get Riposte, which is the only reason that I'd even put any points into Deflection (unless I was serious about 5v5).

In terms of Mutilate and poisons, Wound MH, Crippling OH. 3/3 Imp Gouge would help too.

Huh?

AR + BF + SnD + AP trinket = SHREDLY DEATH

Add to that the whole slew of rogue ability that interrupt or stun (CoS, Kick, KS, Gouge, Blind, DT, Garrote, and poisons to an extent), and you should be able to shred nearly every single player you come across.

Ah, 62. You're talking about BGs then. Here I thought you were talking about Arena. My bad.

Still, you'll probably fare better as combat in BGs anyways. Mutilate is tough because of the positioning requirement.

Thanks for all your help folks. I may just make some of the changes Demea suggested, then again, I might go with a mutilate build as I have never tried it to see what it is like.

I appreciate all the guidance given here. Thanks a ton!

Actually, Demea, your logic might not be quite so obvious to all. I was wondering this same thing recently, regarding dagger vs sword in OH. I've been a weird backstab build so far (only L.36) and am enjoying it, but b/c I don't get to play my rogue as much as I'd like, I've decided I need more leveling efficiency. A switch to combat swords thus seemed in order.

On the face of it, the extra swings (and thus poison procs) off a dagger would seem more valuable than the diminished dps (a result of being in the OH) of a sword. I realize you can talent back 50% of that lost OH dmg in the combat tree.

Note that this isn't intended to be an argument for OH daggers in a sword build, but rather a request for a deeper explanation. I plan to (again) read Nooblestick's FAQ/guide in this forum, especially since I'm going to respec soon, but any insight here would be appreciated.

On a related noted, is the Protector's Sword (BG reward) of any value to a rogue? The strength instead of agi on it seems a waste.

I mostly do bgs right now (saving up honor for next season). My bg of choice is av, since it is now, in my battle group at least, the most viable option for honor. I know that everyone preaches crip + wound poisons, but actually, I have better success with crip and mind-numbing. There are enough targets that I can choose my foe even given the fact that I spend most of my time out of stealth. The only time I ever change is when I'm waiting for a bunker or gy or w/e to cap and a warrior comes along. I switch to crip + deadly. Seems to me that in the large battles, the healers are mostly worried about healing the tanks and such so I fare much better using mind numbing. Of course, this means that I go after casters exclusively, which is what we're supposed to do anyway.

As far as mutilate goes, just make sure you have some good daggers. You're going to be really disappointed if you don't have some good ones 'cause your cs>mut>ks>mut>mut>evis might not even be enough to kill high armored opponents. Make sure you have 5/5 opportunity until you ding 70; it will help. If you just plan to do bgs at 62, well, that's not an optimum level for it. Leveling wise, you could use either build, but combat will be a bit easier given equal equipment. If you really want to try mutilate, go ahead. There's nothing wrong with it. You will do find in pvp and leveling as well. Just don't try to be a tank killer.
Finally, in answer to your question, you can use deadly with mutilate and you can gouge inbetween ticks and still have enough time to position and mutilate. It might take a little practice, but it's really not that hard. I leveled in outlands as mutilate. When I would get an unexpected add or something, I used that tactic a lot.

I specced Mutilate at 50 and am currently 55 with the last 5 points going into Oppurtunity. I love the build as well, it is wonderful to completely shut down a mob, tear them apart, restealth and move on to your next victim. I have found that wound MH and instant OH is a good set up for grinding. As mentioned, you can use deadly and still gouge to get behind for a mutilate, but you have to time your gouge just as deadly ticks. I find it easier to just use wound and instant, I am lazy.

And I agree with the statement that mutilate should always be used over backstab, poisoned or not, as the combo point generation outweighs the DPS in that situation.

I leveled Mutilate-Sub from 62-70 and then respec'd Mutilate-Combat at 70. Mutilate-Combat is a lot more lethal, so unless you are addicted to the sub talents, you'll definitely want to switch once you hit 70.

As far as level grinding is concerned, I woud stay away from deadly for the reasons you pointed out. I used crip/wound, because I'm on a PVP server and I felt that would be the best combination to have on if I were to get ganked.

And I agree with you. Daggers is just more "roguely". Combat swords imho is sucky for battlegrounds because the AR cooldown is too long, and it's boring as hell to grind with. For general BG's Mutilate is a far superior build because you are less reliant on your cooldowns being up.

it's actually slightly more than 5% with the chance to proc poisons on the extra sword swing. for a sword spec you never pop any poisons except for your off hand if there is a shaman in the group. windfury also procs your talent though your talents does not proc winfury.

Just get one of these. Problem solved!

QFT

I've heard people talking endlessly about Latro's for a sword rogue but hadn't actually looked it up until now. Damn that is some sweet, sweet action.

@Demea.
Thanks for the (further) clarfication. Problem is, I'm only L.38 and there aren't many incredibly fast swords for the old OH. Ginsu is the fastest I could find near my level and it looks like a world drop. So assuming the fastest OH sword I could get would be around 2.0-2.2 speed, would it still be better than a decent dagger like the Scarlet Monastery quest reward? (Black Menace)

I suppose there's some math I could attempt here, so I'm not just stabbing blindly in the dark here with my questions...

If a sword procs the extra swing talent 5% of the time (assuming no misses, dodges, etc, which I realize is a major assumption), it is effectively halving its speed 5% of the time. Hmmm that's a confusing way to look at it, let's try another avenue... So a normal 100 swings would take 200 seconds; whereas if the talent proc'd 5 times in those 100 swings, you'd have 105 swings in 200 seconds, giving you 200/105 = 1.905 speed weapon. Still much slower than a 1.5 speed dagger.

At L.70 your response regarding a sword in the OH makes absolute sense, but what about for a lowbie like me?

Hey, it's Eon, the guy who changed how I play every toon I have. Rate up for existing!! :)