This is not a post about whether dual or 2H is better. I know it depends on stats, 2H gives higher stats (typically) while dual gives flexibility. But what I'm wondering is, what is the ideal dual weild combo to shoot for? The sticky lists recommended epic, non-raid gear but only lists 2H'ers. Are there any end-gamer dual wielders out there?
On a slightly off topic note, I was looking into how Hit Rating works and learned that at maximum weapon skill vs a raid boss, there's a 5% miss rate with a 2H weapon and I'd need a hit rating of 142 to eliminate that. But the article said that with dual wielders, the miss chance goes up to 24% with a corresopnding increase in HR. Now granted with us, that's not a huge issue since we stay at range (though if I need to wing clip to get back to range, I want more than a 3 in 4 chance of hitting). Anyway, with that type of disparity, why would ANY class want to dual wield? We don't have any 70 rogues in my guild, so I poked around the Armory a bit and of the 5 lvl 70 rogues I found, the highest hit rating was 67 which doesn't even come close to ensuring a 2H hit, let alone dual weild.
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ideal dual wieldFollow
Those 5 rogues you have found are not very typical. I see a lot of dual wielders (fury warriors and rogues) which run around with > 200 hit rating on their gear.
This 24% miss chance also only applies for white damage (that are those autoattacks from both weapons).
Special attacks only need the normal 5% (against even level mobs) or 9% (against bosses at level 70).
So why would anyone dualwield? Have you ever compared the DPS of a typical 1h weapon and a two hand weapon?. A 1h weapon has a lot more than half the DPS of a 2h weapon.
Also both weapons get their damage increased from your melee attack power and things like that. Of course the different classes talents make dual wielding very attractive for them. Rogues plainly have no alternative as they cannot use 2h weapons. (But don't be sad for them, they are the top DPS class for single target dps unless they get smashed by the boss).
This 24% miss chance also only applies for white damage (that are those autoattacks from both weapons).
Special attacks only need the normal 5% (against even level mobs) or 9% (against bosses at level 70).
So why would anyone dualwield? Have you ever compared the DPS of a typical 1h weapon and a two hand weapon?. A 1h weapon has a lot more than half the DPS of a 2h weapon.
Also both weapons get their damage increased from your melee attack power and things like that. Of course the different classes talents make dual wielding very attractive for them. Rogues plainly have no alternative as they cannot use 2h weapons. (But don't be sad for them, they are the top DPS class for single target dps unless they get smashed by the boss).
Hit rating works differently for pretty much every class. As for Dualwielding, there are a few slightly legitimate options that won't gimp you. A nice Axe for dualwielding drops in Mechanar, and if none of the Rogues and Warriors in your guild objects, Dual spiteblades, or a combination of the Rogue Daggers in Karazhan also won't exactly gimp you.
But the truth is still this: For a Hunter that's beginning End-Game, you are looking at Hellforged Halberd, Sonic Spear, Terokk's Quill and Legacy for melee weaponry. All the other possibilities just won't cut it if you are in a guild where the melee classes still needs weapon upgrades.
All this being said, I am still working on Dualwielding Spiteblades myself, purely for the feeling of Awesome when they are crossed on my back or used in a Dance of Whirling Death in melee.
But the truth is still this: For a Hunter that's beginning End-Game, you are looking at Hellforged Halberd, Sonic Spear, Terokk's Quill and Legacy for melee weaponry. All the other possibilities just won't cut it if you are in a guild where the melee classes still needs weapon upgrades.
All this being said, I am still working on Dualwielding Spiteblades myself, purely for the feeling of Awesome when they are crossed on my back or used in a Dance of Whirling Death in melee.
Just a clarification on hit rating, since two people posted slightly incorrect information.
The hit rating needed to hit a level 73 or ?? raid boss is 9%. 15.8 hit rating equals 1%, so that equals 142 hit rating. The percent needed can be reduced with points in Surefooted (1% per talent point).
I know you said this isn't a post about dual vs. 2-hander, but I have to ask why would you want to dual-wield? You ask if there are any end-gamer dual wielders out there. I would suspect there are very few end-game hunters that are dual wielding. The stats are inferior on 1-handed weapons. Enchants for 1-handers are inferior (even when multiplied by 2). To get your hit rating higher, you'd have to sacrifice a lot of other stats. I just don't really see the point.
The hit rating needed to hit a level 73 or ?? raid boss is 9%. 15.8 hit rating equals 1%, so that equals 142 hit rating. The percent needed can be reduced with points in Surefooted (1% per talent point).
I know you said this isn't a post about dual vs. 2-hander, but I have to ask why would you want to dual-wield? You ask if there are any end-gamer dual wielders out there. I would suspect there are very few end-game hunters that are dual wielding. The stats are inferior on 1-handed weapons. Enchants for 1-handers are inferior (even when multiplied by 2). To get your hit rating higher, you'd have to sacrifice a lot of other stats. I just don't really see the point.
I dual wield. I just don't use melee enough to really CARE about the damage in combat, but then again, I'm only levelling and not in end-game. I really only use melee when I'm out of FD, scattershot, and disengage isn't working.
The half damage bit on the off hand weapon really hurts it for actual melee, there should be skills for any class that can dual wield to counter (or lower) this but oh well.
Speed is fun, I like going stabbity, stabbity, but overall the damage is very disappointing. On the plus side, the lower damage means that the target usually focuses on something else, like my pet, generally giving me a chance to get back to range.
My current setup will go away once I get Terokk's Quill, gotta beat dang Ikiss first! Can't wait!
I worry more about the stats than the actual damage, again, just don't melee enough to warrant too much effort in this area. If I'm in melee I'm not happy!
The half damage bit on the off hand weapon really hurts it for actual melee, there should be skills for any class that can dual wield to counter (or lower) this but oh well.
Speed is fun, I like going stabbity, stabbity, but overall the damage is very disappointing. On the plus side, the lower damage means that the target usually focuses on something else, like my pet, generally giving me a chance to get back to range.
My current setup will go away once I get Terokk's Quill, gotta beat dang Ikiss first! Can't wait!
I worry more about the stats than the actual damage, again, just don't melee enough to warrant too much effort in this area. If I'm in melee I'm not happy!
It's also pretty much pointless for a hunter to get hit capped over and above the ranged weapon hit cap. That means that with duel wielding you will always have a high miss rate that you wouldn't have with a two-hand.
I completely agree with North about the coolness though. Also the legacy looks like someone ate pastel paint and then threw up.
I completely agree with North about the coolness though. Also the legacy looks like someone ate pastel paint and then threw up.
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azwing wrote:
Just a clarification on hit rating, since two people posted slightly incorrect information.
Clarification on my own post:
Various classes need different amounts of hitrating for efficient raiding. A Rogue doesn't need the same number as a Hunter to achieve efficient raiding, nor a Warrior, Paladin (Retri or Prot) Druid and so on. It is simply a question of when Hitrating becomes the highest DPS increase in relation to Attack Power, Crit and so on.
Quote:
Enchants for 1-handers are inferior (even when multiplied by 2).
Wrong. 1H agility enchant is 20, 2H is 35. 20*2=40, DW enchants are greater (although since DW has 82% the stats of 2H it probably won't make too much difference).
One other reason DW isn't too bad is that you can double up on mana oils.
As far as the miss rate, I believe the miss rate on special attacks is the base 5%. That's why DW warriors love heroic strike so much, because instead of their white-hit being 76% hit, it's 95% on a yellow. So if you're DWing, your wing clip is probably going to have the 5% miss chance.
imo, the best dual wielding for serious PvE at lvl 70 is a 2hander.
Stellaris Mech - Is the axe North is thinking of.
Spiteblade Netherspite in Kara
Netherbane From Al'ar in The Eye
Those are you 3 main DWing options.
However I think that since Wingclip is a Yellow attack that the 24% miss rate doesn't quite apply to it. It could possibly be more like the 5-8% that the rogues and warriors have for their SS/HS attacks.
I could be also be completely wrong.
Spiteblade Netherspite in Kara
Netherbane From Al'ar in The Eye
Those are you 3 main DWing options.
However I think that since Wingclip is a Yellow attack that the 24% miss rate doesn't quite apply to it. It could possibly be more like the 5-8% that the rogues and warriors have for their SS/HS attacks.
I could be also be completely wrong.
Thanks for the input.
To answer Azwing, I'm just curious about dual wielding, keeping my options open and all. I did it early on, when I first learned the ability but that was mainly becasue I hadn't learned or come across any 2H weapons. Also, I do this cool jump/spin move when I attacked.
Anyway, I did know that top end 1H chants doubled are better than the equivalent 2H version, so that was another consideration - anything to get more agi! But mainly, since the sticky said choose between the two 'based on stats' I wanted to know which 1H'ers out there would/could work out.
To answer Azwing, I'm just curious about dual wielding, keeping my options open and all. I did it early on, when I first learned the ability but that was mainly becasue I hadn't learned or come across any 2H weapons. Also, I do this cool jump/spin move when I attacked.
Anyway, I did know that top end 1H chants doubled are better than the equivalent 2H version, so that was another consideration - anything to get more agi! But mainly, since the sticky said choose between the two 'based on stats' I wanted to know which 1H'ers out there would/could work out.
These are my choices for dw if i could ever get the BotU to drop :)Right now im using the big bad wolfs paw and an emerald ripper with 20 agi enchants.
Felsteel Longblade:
26agi
15 sta
Blade of the Unrequited
13 sta
9 crit
18 ap
and 3 sockets
with 20 agi enchants on both, plus the 3 sockets, you can reach better stats then any 2h at this point in progression (kara and under)for a survival hunter.
Felsteel Longblade:
26agi
15 sta
Blade of the Unrequited
13 sta
9 crit
18 ap
and 3 sockets
with 20 agi enchants on both, plus the 3 sockets, you can reach better stats then any 2h at this point in progression (kara and under)for a survival hunter.
Quote:
with 20 agi enchants on both, plus the 3 sockets, you can reach better stats then any 2h at this point in progression (kara and under)for a survival hunter.
Try Legacy :)
Beats the living **** out of any 1hand Duel Wield combo!
Caldone the Shady wrote:
Quote:
with 20 agi enchants on both, plus the 3 sockets, you can reach better stats then any 2h at this point in progression (kara and under)for a survival hunter.
Try Legacy :)
Beats the living sh*t out of any 1hand Duel Wield combo!
ya I havn't found anything better yet. wouldn't mind it though, even though I don't care what stuff looks like much, legacy is pretty lame.
As a MM yes legacy is better, but as a survival hunter there is no comparison b/n the 2. Im not saying legacy isnt nice, because it is, but if you can get that dagger and have the money for the longblade, and your survival then that is the way to go.
Legacy:
75agi
155 ap
18.75 crit
Dw combo:
90 agi
108 ap
31.5 crit
Edited, Oct 16th 2007 1:09pm by montaghar
Legacy:
75agi
155 ap
18.75 crit
Dw combo:
90 agi
108 ap
31.5 crit
Edited, Oct 16th 2007 1:09pm by montaghar
any two guns would make for awesome duel wielding.
specially on a drunk dwarf.
Well seriously though. Each class who often duel weild usually do this because they have a great function for it. Say enh shamans, that duel strike mutilate ripoff [sorry iam a rogue] is one hell of a move and having 2 weps for buffing works out really well. Rogues can only duel weild [no sheilds, no 2h nada nothing, cept for well those off hand non attack stat boosters] and a lot of our powers are based on them. Fury warriors benefit a lot. Sometimes warriors who sword/sheild in pve prefer to duel wield in pvp.
Hunters...well iam not too sure about hunters. Other than a very cool factor and often when the weapons' regular stats are matched with individual enchantments [double mongoose etc] they may offer more than what the hunter currently has in his/her 2h weapon.
Duel wield misses make up for it with a higher rate of attack. Compared to the great damage but slower striking of 2h's. THough mind you, certain powers produce more with slow, high damage [not high dps! their different!] weps.
Edited, Oct 16th 2007 9:21pm by Tenjen
specially on a drunk dwarf.
Well seriously though. Each class who often duel weild usually do this because they have a great function for it. Say enh shamans, that duel strike mutilate ripoff [sorry iam a rogue] is one hell of a move and having 2 weps for buffing works out really well. Rogues can only duel weild [no sheilds, no 2h nada nothing, cept for well those off hand non attack stat boosters] and a lot of our powers are based on them. Fury warriors benefit a lot. Sometimes warriors who sword/sheild in pve prefer to duel wield in pvp.
Hunters...well iam not too sure about hunters. Other than a very cool factor and often when the weapons' regular stats are matched with individual enchantments [double mongoose etc] they may offer more than what the hunter currently has in his/her 2h weapon.
Duel wield misses make up for it with a higher rate of attack. Compared to the great damage but slower striking of 2h's. THough mind you, certain powers produce more with slow, high damage [not high dps! their different!] weps.
Edited, Oct 16th 2007 9:21pm by Tenjen
#17REDACTED,
Posted: Oct 16 2007 at 7:46 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) I am very happy as a marksman hunter using the stelaris as a duel wield. if you enchant both with +30 intellect it will give you about one thousand more mana. and if your marksman with careful aim. then your attack power is actually boosted aswell.
montaghar wrote:
but if you can get that dagger and have the money for the longblade, and your survival then that is the way to go.
Quote:
Legacy:
75agi
155 ap
18.75 crit
Dw combo:
90 agi
108 ap
31.5 crit
75agi
155 ap
18.75 crit
Dw combo:
90 agi
108 ap
31.5 crit
And you would gladly be out dps'd by me :)and it's over 1%crit fyi and who gives a crap about the stamina, unless your a pvper. The only real separations is the mp5 on legacy, but with double mana oils that advantage is nil. And if you still dont beleive it, ill link this exact topic in the elitist jerks forums on a dps spread sheet that backs up what im saying that this combo is better then legacy. But again, it really depends on the rest of your gear. If you are sitting at 35% unbuffed crit then you could take the attack power. Thats the problem with asking this vs that questions. I guess the best way to figure out what is best for YOU is to plug it into one of the numerous dps spreadsheets and look at the results.
Edited, Oct 18th 2007 4:14pm by montaghar
Edited, Oct 18th 2007 4:14pm by montaghar
on the issue of hit rating, I was (could be wrongfully though) under the impression
that the 24% miss rate applied to the offhand weapon, and the main hand weapon
still had a base miss rate of 5% vs a lvl 70 mob going up to 8.6% vs lvl 73.
All specials (at least for hunter) are done with the main hand weapon, which
would mean that as you reach your hit cap for ranged, you would at the same
time reach your hit cap for wing clips/raptor strikes etc.
The reason rogues and dw warriors seek more hit rating than other classes, is that
they want to up their offhand weapon damage, no?
This is just from my own reasoning, and in no way backed up by anything else,
so please do slaughter it if it is wrong.
that the 24% miss rate applied to the offhand weapon, and the main hand weapon
still had a base miss rate of 5% vs a lvl 70 mob going up to 8.6% vs lvl 73.
All specials (at least for hunter) are done with the main hand weapon, which
would mean that as you reach your hit cap for ranged, you would at the same
time reach your hit cap for wing clips/raptor strikes etc.
The reason rogues and dw warriors seek more hit rating than other classes, is that
they want to up their offhand weapon damage, no?
This is just from my own reasoning, and in no way backed up by anything else,
so please do slaughter it if it is wrong.
actodd wrote:
On a slightly off topic note, I was looking into how Hit Rating works and learned that at maximum weapon skill vs a raid boss, there's a 5% miss rate with a 2H weapon and I'd need a hit rating of 142 to eliminate that
Incidentally, this isn't 100% correct.
At 70, with max skills, you have a 5% miss chance against level 70 mobs and players.
Against bosses, which have an effective level of 3 higher than yours, you have something like a 9% miss rate. That works out to requiring the 142 hit rating that you mention.
Edited, Oct 19th 2007 10:30am by seroster
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