Here
Obviously the new patch isnt out yet so i dont have a great calculator to work with. I used the normal one at WoW, just keep in mind the talent changes in the next patch when looking at my choices. Also, since PoJ is being changed to 3 points, the third point was put in SoC.
The one I put up is almost specificaly for me, as I have another Paladin tank in the guild (my offtank) I can have him go 3/3 Sanctified Crusader while I go 3/3 PoJ. I took the 5 points out of Reckoning though for a few reasons:
1. Parry problem: More hits = more chances for the boss to parry = more bursty damage.
2. Diminishing Returns: As total avoidance increases (Dodge/Miss/Parry), Reckoning procs are less and less.
3. Usefullness with multi-mob encounters: With multiple mobs hitting me, reckoning is a focused dps talent. The group will AOE down the group, so my increasing threat on that single target is hardly significant.
4. Usefullness with single/duo/trio mob encounters: The majority of my threat generation is AS, Consecrate, and Reflection damage (or Exorcism for Undead/Demons), the Reckoning procs, while helping with SoR threat, it's hardly a make or break situation.
If I didn't have another Paladin to pick up Santified Crusader and I had to take both... I'd take the 2 out of Stoicism and probably 1 out of Ardent Defender, as I consider that to be more of a luxury than anything.
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Proposed post 2.3 tanking build (Raiding)Follow
I dunno jack I might move some talents around a little if you're really into raiding. Maybe something like this but its just a suggestion :)
lawl holy ;)
Speaking of luxuries, I'd drop Stoicism to cap out Shield Specialization (or, alternatively, pick up Precision). Bosses don't stun as a general rule, and you don't care about the dispels in PvE (especially with undispellable seals), so just go all the way and crank up either threat or mitigation.
For that matter, I'd probably drop Ardent Defender too. It's too vulnerable to leap-frogging in tanking; a boss that hits reasonably hard is still going to drop you if you're at 20%, even with the reduction, and while it gives you a bit of a 'safe zone' from 30%+ depending upon the boss it's not enough to be useful when you'd need it. The new PoJustice, while okay, is really not that significant for tanking; a 3% chance to resist a spell is a 3% increase in mitigation to a fairly insignificant amount of your overall damage. Spell Warding costs fewer points and is a lot more consistent, for example.
I'd split the points between Sanctified Crusader, Precision and Shield Specialization in a way that makes sense to you and just skip PoJustice.
For that matter, I'd probably drop Ardent Defender too. It's too vulnerable to leap-frogging in tanking; a boss that hits reasonably hard is still going to drop you if you're at 20%, even with the reduction, and while it gives you a bit of a 'safe zone' from 30%+ depending upon the boss it's not enough to be useful when you'd need it. The new PoJustice, while okay, is really not that significant for tanking; a 3% chance to resist a spell is a 3% increase in mitigation to a fairly insignificant amount of your overall damage. Spell Warding costs fewer points and is a lot more consistent, for example.
I'd split the points between Sanctified Crusader, Precision and Shield Specialization in a way that makes sense to you and just skip PoJustice.
Dilbrt wrote:
I dunno jack I might move some talents around a little if you're really into raiding. Maybe something like this but its just a suggestion :)
Why would Holy need RF?
for the damage reduction
@ RPZip, I just can't justify dropping Ardent Defender, because yeah for bosses it might not matter as much, but for the trash leading up to the bosses it can definitely help out.
Also, the 3% from PoJ is significant, because yeah overall it amounts to 3% DR, but it's how the DR is applied, missing the damage entirely can save you more than just dropping some of the damage from it, i think that's worth the extra point.
@ RPZip, I just can't justify dropping Ardent Defender, because yeah for bosses it might not matter as much, but for the trash leading up to the bosses it can definitely help out.
Also, the 3% from PoJ is significant, because yeah overall it amounts to 3% DR, but it's how the DR is applied, missing the damage entirely can save you more than just dropping some of the damage from it, i think that's worth the extra point.
Galkaman wrote:
Dilbrt wrote:
I dunno jack I might move some talents around a little if you're really into raiding. Maybe something like this but its just a suggestion :)
Why would Holy need RF?
The Honorable CapJack wrote:
for the damage reduction
Half right. Damage reduction is ok in PvP, but the real reason you want to have it is when you get to tidewalker in SSC (go ahead and get the talents to save you respeccing later). On tidewalker holy paladins play 'bait' and get the add aggro so that other, more squishy, healers don't get owned.
Come on jack, get them to recruit a warrior and go back holy =p
The point was that spells constitute a pretty small % of your incoming damage. If it was a 3% decrease to all incoming damage (chance to be hit by spells/melee) it'd be one thing, but at a 1% chance to avoid _just_ spells it's really not worthwhile.
Use SWS or a similar damage meter sometime and look at how much or your damage in raids comes from spells, and how much from melee. *shrug* Point-for-point, Shield Spec is going to give more damage reduction if nothing else.
Use SWS or a similar damage meter sometime and look at how much or your damage in raids comes from spells, and how much from melee. *shrug* Point-for-point, Shield Spec is going to give more damage reduction if nothing else.
Quote:
Come on jack, get them to recruit a warrior and go back holy =p
I enjoy tanking more than healing so..... no :P
If spells are that insignificant than I might as well just drop the 2 points in Spell Warding as well (something I brought up a while ago and other people convinced me to grab anyway).
Your build has 2 points into Spell Warding. o.O
SpellWarding and Ardent Defender, those are questionable but I believe both Prot Pallies in guild use em.
Stoicism has absolutely no place in a tanking build, even if you PvP.
Stoicism has absolutely no place in a tanking build, even if you PvP.
Bode - 100 Holy Paladin - Lightbringer
There are a few times that I wish I had Stoicism in my build, but those times are so few and far between that I can't justify spending the points in that talent. Other than that, your proposed build Jack looks exactly like what I was thinking I would be respeccing to. Those 2 points I'd either use to fill out Shield Spec, or to keep Guardian's Favor. I find I'm not using BoP as often anymore, and more and more often I'm not the only Paladin in a raid/Heroic run which used to not be the case, so there's an extra BoP or 2 to go around. And BoF, the only time in recent memory I've used it was in Arcatraz on the first 2 pulls >.< So more than likely I'd be filling out Shield Spec.
As for the PoJ, I have 2 things to say: 1) goodbye Boar's Speed, hello +12 Stamina and 2) full avoidance of spells, I'll take it. Yes, it's only 3%, but that's still better than 0%. I'm not convinced yet that 3% hit is going to be a make or break type of talent, and I don't use JotC often enough to pick up the new Imp SotC talent, so I see PoJ as the best option for those 3 talents.
As for the PoJ, I have 2 things to say: 1) goodbye Boar's Speed, hello +12 Stamina and 2) full avoidance of spells, I'll take it. Yes, it's only 3%, but that's still better than 0%. I'm not convinced yet that 3% hit is going to be a make or break type of talent, and I don't use JotC often enough to pick up the new Imp SotC talent, so I see PoJ as the best option for those 3 talents.
well Sanctified Crusader is nice for the whole raid, an extra 3% crit means 3% more raid dps.
Now, Jack, what did you mean by that?
It's true about the raid DPS, I'd just have to re-learn my Judgement in a way if I took that talent. Right now I mostly judge Wisdom to keep my mana up as threat is a non-issue. Think what I'll do (probably a lot of us) is play around with a few of the new talents once they're actually released before setting my mind on a particular path.
It's true about the raid DPS, I'd just have to re-learn my Judgement in a way if I took that talent. Right now I mostly judge Wisdom to keep my mana up as threat is a non-issue. Think what I'll do (probably a lot of us) is play around with a few of the new talents once they're actually released before setting my mind on a particular path.
Ardent Defender is growing to be more powerful due to the +10% Stamina we are getting in the patch, so I'm at least gonna keep it.
Max Shield Spec, its one of the talents that scales VERY well when you get better gear.
I'm at least gonna take precision, gonna take few points out of Toughness, and gonna lose Kings for it(Always have somebody at a raid who can give Kings), because it is changing to be +3% hit to melee AND magic, which is huge.
I'm personally weightin over if I want poj or not, but probably gonna pick it, losing 1 point from Improved Judgement, but no can do.
Oh, and I'm gonna be taking iJotC, since I will always have some Holy Paladin keeping JoW up for bosses, and bigger trash.
My build is gonna be something like this, with the last 3 points into Pursuit of Justice.
Edited, Oct 17th 2007 12:17am by Mimickins
Edited, Oct 17th 2007 12:20am by Mimickins
Edited, Oct 17th 2007 12:24am by Mimickins
Max Shield Spec, its one of the talents that scales VERY well when you get better gear.
I'm at least gonna take precision, gonna take few points out of Toughness, and gonna lose Kings for it(Always have somebody at a raid who can give Kings), because it is changing to be +3% hit to melee AND magic, which is huge.
I'm personally weightin over if I want poj or not, but probably gonna pick it, losing 1 point from Improved Judgement, but no can do.
Oh, and I'm gonna be taking iJotC, since I will always have some Holy Paladin keeping JoW up for bosses, and bigger trash.
My build is gonna be something like this, with the last 3 points into Pursuit of Justice.
Edited, Oct 17th 2007 12:17am by Mimickins
Edited, Oct 17th 2007 12:20am by Mimickins
Edited, Oct 17th 2007 12:24am by Mimickins
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