Weapon ExpertiseFollow

So the official 2.3 patch notes are out, and we've taken it pretty hard. We didn't get any of the things we were promised for PvP (with the exception of the blind FIX). However, I'm wondering about the PvE implications of the changes.

Back when the patch notes were initially announced I posted a question about whether or not we should be worried about our status for PvE raiding considering the buffs that other classes (Enh Shamans specifically), and was basically told that we'll be fine. I'm still not so sure about that. I'm still not quite sure how weapon skill being changed to weapon expertise is going to affect us.

Currently with the +10 weapon skill we get from talents, we get +3.5% to hit and supposedly a reduced chance that our target will dodge our attacks (although this appears to be slight). Weapon expertise doesn't increase our chance to hit anymore, only dodge and parry. Those 10 points from expertise are going to reduce the chance of our attacks being dodged/parried by 2.5%. I suppose this will increase the number of Yellow attacks that actually land as well, since the +hit from weapon skill does nothing for specials beyond the initial +5%. So maybe this change will actually be good.

What do you guys think?

It's a fairly significant net nerf if you aren't pushing the +hit cap (see: either before Kara gear, or after kara gear), but if you're intending to just crank hit up as far as you can I suppose you could see it as a minor buff... recognizing that it somewhat neuters the utility of Surprise Attacks.

Yes I agree that it takes some of the benefit of Surprise Attacks away. I hadn't really considered that. But it should be a small buff regardless of whether or not you're hit capped.

For the 10 skill points going to 10 expertise points (assuming that you've capped your specials), you lose 3.5% to hit, but reduce the chances that your attacks are dodged/parried by 2.5%. The 2.5% applies to 100% of your damage, while the 3.5% to hit only applies to your white damage.

Depending on what percentage of your total damage consists of white attacks will determine how much increase you see from this. If your white damage is 60% of your total, +3.5% to hit will only increase your damage by 2.1%. So the expertise appears to be slightly better (unless I've overlooked something.) I don't really know how to figure out what impact this has when you consider it with Surprise Attacks.

Of course if you can still manage to get yourself hit capped, then it's a straight 2.5% increase in damage.

From my, admittedly limited, understanding of the reduction when you are behind an opponent, that is a huge nerf. At best, they just gave us a mild increase damage to trash mobs and a large damage reduction on bosses. You know, those fights where we actually care about damage.

This is a large PvE nerf, at least for those of us in the combat tree.

How does it effect you arena guys?

I understand that mobs can't parry when we're attacking from behind. I'm still not seeing this as a huge nerf, unless the -2.5% to mob dodge/parry means -1.25% to dodge and -1.25% to parry, but that's not how I read it. I'm assuming that since a mob can't parry, we'll get -2.5% to mob dodge.



Tyr, this isn't a nerf to +hit rating. Its a conversion from weapon skill to expertise. I'm only considering the +10 points that we currently get from our "Weapon Expertise" talent in the combat tree. Weapon skill (for the first 5 points) gets converted largely into +hit against higher level mobs.

Expertise will have no +hit component, and only apply to dodge/parry. Previously we could do nothing to reduce the amount that a mob dodged/parried our attacks (weapon skill was supposed to do this, but it apparently had a very small effect on dodge only). We can still get more +hit gear to reduce our misses (and we're going to need more now) to compensate for the of the +hit weapon skill granted, but now we can also actually land more attacks. Reducing the dodge/parry chance of a mob will increase the number of specials and white attacks that actually damage the mob.

Please correct me if I'm wrong on this.

and if you notice the loot table for ne heroic items, and ZA items. They are stacked to the brim with hit. Should be no problem in 2.3 for people even in Kara to get 250+ hit from kara/ZA/heroic badge loot.
and even more if you chase hit gear. I see this as neutral fix. I actually am stoked that our chance to be dodged will go down. Think about it you +308 dudes dont have to worry about being dodged. how is that a problem. now all your white damage is going through. Not to mention Kara/ZA droping heroic badges. It will be easier to get badge items than ever now. I pug Kara every saturday with a group. We clear it saturday thats a load of badges.

gotcha but still the +hit gear is amaizing in the new tables. +22 hit on a lot of items. Chest of the Conveir now has matching buddies.

So our "buff" is the raising of the +hit practical cap by 55 points?

WTF Blizzard?

It does however look like the new gear from ZA will be a godsend. Mad +hit and haste on everything. I'm farming heroics as of now for at least the gloves.

So our damage will now be controled by:
Attack Power

Our ability to hit the target now has two stats:(?)
+Hit
+Expertise

And then speed is just:
Haste

Do I have that primarily right?

iam suddenly somewhat releived i put +hit gems instead of +crit. [it was 4am! i couldnt think straight]

but wait, the 41 talent gets rid of misses right? but targets can still dodge and parry. SO isnt this like an aid?

Been a long day taking care of a hyper active niece in a mall with toy shops everywhere, so bare [bear?] with me

Edited, Oct 12th 2007 7:46pm by Tenjen

finishers dont share the same miss-rate as white damage. If you dont have enough +hit to ensure that, you shouldnt be raiding anyway.

I havent missed a finisher in eons.

Edited, Oct 12th 2007 1:04pm by KTurner

It's a higher theoretical hit cap. It is not a buff in any way, as if you're _at_ the hit cap you should instead be trying to ramp up AP and Crit, not the other way around. You'll now have to spend more item stats/sockets to reach the hit cap. It will lower DPS universally... not raise, with the only exception being if you are currently over the hit cap and haven't resocketed for some reason.

It's not a % decrease Tyr, it's the same as any other dodge/parry in the game. 4 Combat Expertise Skill is a 1% decrease in Dodge/Parry. The Combat Expertise cap against L73 mobs would be 22.4 Combat Expertise Skill, or 88 Combat Expertise Rating (85 CER before you start seeing diminishing returns on the output - last point of skill won't reduce the full amount), at which point it would never Dodge or Parry... which is fantastic for tanks, but horrible for DPS.

It's a bad skill. The talent is still decent because it provides so much, but it's a nerf compared to what it used to be.

I guess the real question we have left is:

What are we getting for items Blizzard?

Itemization does not appear to be one of blizzard's strong points. If we now have to add additional parameters to our gear, this could get ugly real fast.