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Crits and the Attack TableFollow

#1 Oct 11 2007 at 3:39 PM Rating: Decent
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57 posts
I'm trying to make sense of how the attack table works, and have been reading up at Evil Empire and Wow Wiki... Wow Wiki states -

Quote:
For mob and white-damage melee attacks, there is no such thing as a blocked crushing blow, a parried crit, a missed glancing blow, etc.. All of these possible attack results are mutually exclusive.


...and the Evil Empire guide at Tankspot states -

Quote:
The way WoW calculates crit rate is over ALL attacks. Crit rate is not based on hits only. In other words, if you have a 5% crit
rate, that 5% chance includes misses.


So according to this, both Miss and Crit are on the table, but you can get a crit even when you miss. If all of the possible attack results are mutually exclusive, and both Miss and Crit are on the attack table, how can you get both results?

There's probably a really obvious answer to this too...

EDIT - sorry it's the attack table, not the combat table...

Edited, Oct 11th 2007 7:48pm by Kokacha
#2 Oct 11 2007 at 4:34 PM Rating: Good
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1,331 posts
A 'blocked' crushing blow doesn't happen, because you can't have a crushing blow if you block.

a parried crit will not happen, since they are mutually exclusive... etc...

...

A 5% crit rate and a 5% hit rate means you will have 5% hits and 5% crits, or 10% of your attacks will hit (half will be crits).

the table looks like this against lvl 73 mobs (bosses)

From behind (no parry);

Miss; depends on weapons; d/w = 27.6%, 2h and 1h only = 8.6%. All special attacks are 8.6% (skills). Minus your hit rating converted to %.
Dodge; 5.6%
Parry; 0%
Glancing; 25%
Crit; = your crit %
Hit; = (100 - the sum of all the others)%

So with 8.6% to hit, 25% to crit and a 2h;

Miss; 0%
Dodge; 5.6%
Parry; 0%
Glancing; 25%
Crit; 25%
Hit; 44.4%

It can't be a miss and a crit, etc...

So...

Dodge; 1 through 5.6
Glancing; 5.7 through 30.6
Crit; 30.7 through 55.6
Hit; 55.7 through 100
#3 Oct 11 2007 at 5:04 PM Rating: Good
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57 posts
Quote:
It can't be a miss and a crit, etc...


That's where I'm confused, because of what Evil Empire has -

Quote:
In other words, if you have a 5% crit
rate, that 5% chance includes misses.


I read that on WoW Wiki as well, I think.

Aren't they saying that if you miss, you can still crit?
#4 Oct 11 2007 at 6:04 PM Rating: Excellent
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1,331 posts
Quote:
Quote:
In other words, if you have a 5% crit
rate, that 5% chance includes misses.


I read that on WoW Wiki as well, I think.

Aren't they saying that if you miss, you can still crit?


This is where I'm confused.

Are you reading into that snippet as saying you can miss a crit or crit a miss? because you can't.

As far as I know it's a single roll system, not a multi-roll system. You roll once on a table, and that's it.
#5 Oct 11 2007 at 6:30 PM Rating: Good
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57 posts
Exactly, that you can crit a miss. That's actually from a Blizzard post a while back.

Quote:
Crit rate is not based on hits only. In other words, if you have a 5% crit rate, that 5% chance includes misses.


It looks like they're saying, even if you miss, you can crit.

The original post is here



Edited, Oct 11th 2007 10:32pm by Kokacha
#6 Oct 11 2007 at 6:45 PM Rating: Good
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1,331 posts
Crit rate and hit rate push miss rates off the table... at a point.
#7 Oct 11 2007 at 6:47 PM Rating: Good
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::EDIT:: Useless info.

Edited, Oct 11th 2007 7:51pm by devioususer
#8 Oct 11 2007 at 6:51 PM Rating: Good
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1,331 posts
The entirety of the post, if you read farther and before the cut part;

Quote:
motive has shared some details on the calculations of hit and crit chances:

part 1

The way WoW calculates crit rate is over ALL attacks. Crit rate is not based on hits only. In other words, if you have a 5% crit rate, that 5% chance includes misses.

All crit rate adjusting abilities, items, and talents add the flat % to the base % crit rate. So if I have a 5% base crit rate and then use an item or talent that increases that crit rate (let's use Improved Backstab talent for example - +30% crit), my new crit with backstab is 35%.

Regarding how defense decreases the rate of critical strikes, each point of defense that a target has over the attacker, the attacker loses 0.04% chance to crit. So, for example, if a level 60 Rogue is attacking a level 60 Warrior who has 25 defense, the rogue's crit rate will be decreased by 1%.

part 2

+toHit items subtract from your miss%.

So, ignoring all defensive actions (Block/Parry/Dodge/etc..) if I have 20% crit chance, 20% miss chance, and 60% hit chance and I equip an item that gives me +5% toHit and +5% crit, my stats become 25% crit, 15% miss chance, 60% hit chance.

New hit chance = (Original hit%) + (toHit modifiers) - (crit modifiers)
60% + 5% - 5% = 60%

New crit chance = (Original crit%) + (crit modifiers)
20% + 5% = 25%

New miss chance - (Original miss%) - (toHit modifiers)
20% - 5% = 15%


What this means is exactly like I posted above.

Your 'hit' rate is dependent on Hit gear and crit gear, pushing your 'misses' off the 'hit table'.

::EDIT::

In addition: You have a 100% total amount for your hit table. Say you have a 25% miss rate (natural d/w unmodified), and 0% crit. Ignoring dodge, parry, etc... you will have a 75% chance to normal white hit and 25% miss chance.

So if you increase your to hit chance by 5% your actually lowering your miss chance by 5%. Example; 20% miss rate, 80% hit rate.

Edited, Oct 11th 2007 7:58pm by devioususer
#9 Oct 11 2007 at 7:24 PM Rating: Decent
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57 posts
Ok so what they're saying then is that when you attack, you have a certain % to hit and a certain % to miss, as well as % for everything else, it's one "die roll".

I think.

They need a copywriter...
#10 Oct 11 2007 at 8:40 PM Rating: Excellent
Correct, it's one roll.

Let's put this another way...

In most RPGs or other games that include these sort of advanced formulas (accessible to the player), many of them logically define that you can only crit what you hit, therefore crits are a shared percentage of your successful attack strikes:

100 swings, 25% chance to crit, 20% chance to miss. Mathematical odds state you will miss 20 of your hits, crit 20 of them, and land the other 60 as normal swings.

In WoW, this is not the case:

100 swings, 80% chance to hit, 25% chance to crit, 20% chance to miss. The 'one die' method that WoW uses means that you will always crit 25 of your swings (note the difference here; your crit rate is a direct share of that base attack roll, not a portion of your successful strikes like above), miss 20, and land the remaining 55.


There's more to the attack table than that, obviously, but that's the gist of how the WoW attack table is different and how crits are measured.
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