Eh...
Ret Paladins give an additional Blessing and refresh Seals (good), but that's about the extent of their raid utility now (and no, 2% damage really isn't enough). The new SoCrusader talent placement effectively screws them over in terms of general raid utility and I'm kind of... well, surprised at the way they did it.
Will be interesting to see how it turns out, though.
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RPZip wrote:
Eh...
Ret Paladins give an additional Blessing and refresh Seals (good), but that's about the extent of their raid utility now (and no, 2% damage really isn't enough). The new SoCrusader talent placement effectively screws them over in terms of general raid utility and I'm kind of... well, surprised at the way they did it.
Will be interesting to see how it turns out, though.
Ret Paladins give an additional Blessing and refresh Seals (good), but that's about the extent of their raid utility now (and no, 2% damage really isn't enough). The new SoCrusader talent placement effectively screws them over in terms of general raid utility and I'm kind of... well, surprised at the way they did it.
Will be interesting to see how it turns out, though.
And the blessing generally isnt anything that couldnt have been picked up by a healadin.
you are not consdering the versatility of the pally buffs. Salv/Light is the given. then a second pally would do Kings-hot, or Might/Wis. those alone are raid must haves. also consider the on the spot judgements. sure i start with SotC, but half way in the fight i might go JoW. and who can forget the godly Moroes killer - BoP.
i'll take all this over a true shot aura or an imp.
i'll take all this over a true shot aura or an imp.
tommyguns wrote:
you are not consdering the versatility of the pally buffs. Salv/Light is the given. then a second pally would do Kings-hot, or Might/Wis. those alone are raid must haves. also consider the on the spot judgements. sure i start with SotC, but half way in the fight i might go JoW. and who can forget the godly Moroes killer - BoP.
Most of the raids ive been on there have been at least 3 or 4 pallies. Hell, ive been on a raid and didnt even have to bless anybody because they were all taken. Again, nothing that another healadin cant cover, and then do a better job healing than a ret pally ever would do DPSing.
JoW is nice, though im not sure how much of a problem mana is anymore for people. We dont have many mages (poor mages, so useless) and hunters do a pretty good job on the meters.
I mean, ****, just give them some blessing deep in the ret tree that is actually decent and there you have it.
Edited, Oct 18th 2007 7:10am by KTurner
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Most of the raids ive been on there have been at least 3 or 4 pallies.
still running MC? lol.
monday i was the only pally in Kara and had to decide if i wanted Kings or Sanc as the MT. tuesday i had a healadin and i rejoiced at the extra buffs. i still have yet to experience sanc aura and another judgement though. wtb a retadin, pst.
tommyguns wrote:
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Most of the raids ive been on there have been at least 3 or 4 pallies.
still running MC? lol.
monday i was the only pally in Kara and had to decide if i wanted Kings or Sanc as the MT. tuesday i had a healadin and i rejoiced at the extra buffs. i still have yet to experience sanc aura and another judgement though. wtb a retadin, pst.
Still running kara? lol.
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still running MC? lol.
monday i was the only pally in Kara and had to decide if i wanted Kings or Sanc as the MT. tuesday i had a healadin and i rejoiced at the extra buffs. i still have yet to experience sanc aura and another judgement though. wtb a retadin, pst.
We run BT and Hyjal with 3 Paladins all the time; sometimes 4, almost never with 2. So, uh... how are those 10-mans?
I can't see us taking a Retadin unless we drop a Holyadin, and compared to our current melee DPS slots (two DPS warriors, two Rogues, enhancement Shaman and a Feral Druid) I can't see a Retadin providing more DPS than any of them... and now that we can make some (all) of our Holyadins respec to provide the 3% Crit debuff, that's not a factor.
Ironically, if they hadn't moved the crit debuff there'd be a reason to bring them, albeit not the most compelling one. (~2% global raid DPS is good, but it'd all depend on their personal DPS contribution as well) With the talent swaps they're KIA.
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We run BT and Hyjal with 3 Paladins all the time; sometimes 4, almost never with 2. So, uh... how are those 10-mans?
true. but AFAIK, KT is not out of Kara. 4 pallies is overkill in Kara.
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and now that we can make some (all) of our Holyadins respec to provide the 3% Crit debuff, that's not a factor.
i wonder how many healadins would actually spec that. then out of those, i wonder how many would actually use it and how often that spell would be used.
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I can't see us taking a Retadin unless we drop a Holyadin, and compared to our current melee DPS slots (two DPS warriors, two Rogues, enhancement Shaman and a Feral Druid) I can't see a Retadin providing more DPS than any of them...
i'm curious to see what your feral drood puts out(boomkin FTW). most ferals i've seen will do mid-level dps at best. i would argue its on par with a properly gear ret pally atm. with the new dps and threat enhancements i see pallies moving up a notch or two. hell, the new CS alone will get you another +100 dps(arena geared).
I know that early into Kara, Feral Druids can rock the DPS charts quite impressively for an hybrid class. That's always been the way of Druids as we can do great with lower gear.
However, as other classes get their epic stuff, we begin to fall behind a notch. Afaik, with the upcoming buffs to Feral AP on many weapons, we'll be back in the race. Also note that we are more versatile than a Ret Pally.
Druids tend to carry multiple armor sets like some Pallies, but it is possible to mix and match tanking gear with DPS gear to remain a great off-tank and still hurt stuff very decently, contrarily to Prot Warrs and Prot Pallies (unless the latter is being hit).
Boomkins are also nice, but I know much less about them. I suppose with a raid in which there are two Warrs and two Rogues a Feral would be much, much valuable. (+5% crit FTW?)
A well-played Druid really can DPS very well if he knows his skill rotation and has a proper spec.
However, as other classes get their epic stuff, we begin to fall behind a notch. Afaik, with the upcoming buffs to Feral AP on many weapons, we'll be back in the race. Also note that we are more versatile than a Ret Pally.
Druids tend to carry multiple armor sets like some Pallies, but it is possible to mix and match tanking gear with DPS gear to remain a great off-tank and still hurt stuff very decently, contrarily to Prot Warrs and Prot Pallies (unless the latter is being hit).
Boomkins are also nice, but I know much less about them. I suppose with a raid in which there are two Warrs and two Rogues a Feral would be much, much valuable. (+5% crit FTW?)
A well-played Druid really can DPS very well if he knows his skill rotation and has a proper spec.
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i'm curious to see what your feral drood puts out(boomkin FTW). most ferals i've seen will do mid-level dps at best. i would argue its on par with a properly gear ret pally atm. with the new dps and threat enhancements i see pallies moving up a notch or two. hell, the new CS alone will get you another +100 dps(arena geared).
His damage is middling.
He's also a _tank_, which is the important part.
We also tend to have 3 healadins in our 25 mans, with a 4th on the Maulgar fight. We've found we need fewer healers on Gruul and in SSC than we do on Maulgar.
Both of our Kara runs have 2 healadins as well.
Both of our Kara runs have 2 healadins as well.
tommyguns wrote:
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We run BT and Hyjal with 3 Paladins all the time; sometimes 4, almost never with 2. So, uh... how are those 10-mans?
true. but AFAIK, KT is not out of Kara. 4 pallies is overkill in Kara.
*edit to sound nicer because im grumpy in the mornings*
I havent been to kara in quite some time and my pally never even got keyed for kara.
Edited, Oct 19th 2007 7:12am by KTurner
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24 posts
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in pve, more pallies will stray from the healer roll and go dps.
In what realms would this be a bad thing?
9 of 10 paladins I've ever met are Holy, .999~ of 10 prot. I've only ever met 1 ret pally aside from PTR, and he was wearing quest blues because he couldn't get a dungeon group.
I personally don't think the guy wearing heavy armor and carrying a Bible should be the first choice to take as DPS, but when the entire population of the game thinks you're a healer or a noob, it's time to start making the other trees more appealing.
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true. but AFAIK, KT is not out of Kara. 4 pallies is overkill in Kara.
When we did it we had 2 tankadins and 2 healadins, also 2 SPs, 2 hunters, a mage and a rogue. It worked pretty well until we got to Moroes and wiped a couple times, and that was just more cause it was our first run through and still working on the coordination/strategies. We *almost* had him on the 2nd try, but one of our shacklers died from Garotte and the other Paladins didnt know to remove it. So.... next time we will.
Only problem we had with 4 paladins was that none of us had PallyPower so it took us like 15 minutes to decide who was going to buff what. It was kinda funny when we speant that long getting everything in order, then we wiped on the first pull due to a bad pull and no leadership. After that they just let me start calling the shots which worked well.
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I havent been to kara in quite some time and my pally never even got keyed for kara.
i apologize for my ignorance KT.
nonwittyusername wrote:
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in pve, more pallies will stray from the healer roll and go dps.
In what realms would this be a bad thing?
9 of 10 paladins I've ever met are Holy, .999~ of 10 prot. I've only ever met 1 ret pally aside from PTR, and he was wearing quest blues because he couldn't get a dungeon group.
I'm sure almost every realm has fewer healers than would be optimal, so fewer healadins would probably be a bad thing on all realms. As would fewer tankadins. While I'm not gonna knock retadins(at least not right now), every tankadin and healadin who respecs to ret will contribute to the overly high ratio of DPS to healers and tanks.
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I'm sure almost every realm has fewer healers than would be optimal, so fewer healadins would probably be a bad thing on all realms. As would fewer tankadins. While I'm not gonna knock retadins(at least not right now), every tankadin and healadin who respecs to ret will contribute to the overly high ratio of DPS to healers and tanks.
you forgot the word "competent". i would reason that the percentage of players knowing what they are doing is relative to the roll the player spec'd(or tried to spec). the roll:suck ratio
dps:75% suck
heal:50% suck
tank 25% suck
i wonder if its a Darwin thing that tanks need to not suck or they face a life of misery and high repair bills. sucky healers can get by with a good tank, fast dps, better healers, or just luck. sucky dps is everywhere!
tommyguns wrote:
i wonder if its a Darwin thing that tanks need to not suck or they face a life of misery and high repair bills. sucky healers can get by with a good tank, fast dps, better healers, or just luck. sucky dps is everywhere!
I would have agreed with you pre-TBC. But I've seen one slightly less than mediocre DPS or healer wipe a raid too many times.
hmm, poldaran, you have a point. i think the real problem will be if tankadins go prot. i'm a healadin and am tired enough as it is saying 'lf tank for <instance>'.... this will possibly make that even more of an issue.
on the other hand they are making changes to the prot tree and the warrior dps trees to encourage more of those specs too and allow the dps warriors to be more capable of tanking. or at least this is what i've heard... don't really watch the warrior changes.
and tommyguns, you're right, most tanks in TBC are at least decent and a large percentage of dps suck. i hate looking at my damagemeter (always on healing+damage) and seeing me at twice the healing of the top dps'er... that happens more often than i like... and i can't speak for how many healers are good... i'd be biased and probably sound arrogant...
so.. since we need more good dps you're gonna do us all a favor and go back to ret, right tommyguns? haha. it killed me to see you forced to respec to be accepted...
on the other hand they are making changes to the prot tree and the warrior dps trees to encourage more of those specs too and allow the dps warriors to be more capable of tanking. or at least this is what i've heard... don't really watch the warrior changes.
and tommyguns, you're right, most tanks in TBC are at least decent and a large percentage of dps suck. i hate looking at my damagemeter (always on healing+damage) and seeing me at twice the healing of the top dps'er... that happens more often than i like... and i can't speak for how many healers are good... i'd be biased and probably sound arrogant...
so.. since we need more good dps you're gonna do us all a favor and go back to ret, right tommyguns? haha. it killed me to see you forced to respec to be accepted...
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i think the real problem will be if tankadins go prot.
Disaster!
haha, wow... thanks for catching that capjack... meant if tankadins go RET.... haha.
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so.. since we need more good dps you're gonna do us all a favor and go back to ret, right tommyguns? haha. it killed me to see you forced to respec to be accepted...
/cheers.
as much as i have love for Ret i dont think i'll go back for raiding. pvp was always so exciting. but now i got myself a mage! so much less stress for way more production.
tanking has its own rewards, some of which i'm still figuring out. but boy do i miss smashing stuff.
3 posts
Don't u think that vindictation would be a good talent to pick up even if ur a tankadin? it won't work on bosses but the -15%stam would be quite nice and maybe it would affect agro a minus 15% stam on a mob would make quite good aggro
P.S this is my 11year old brothers allakhazam account couldn't bother to create my own :P
P.S this is my 11year old brothers allakhazam account couldn't bother to create my own :P
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