Most of this thread is BS. Most of you are like I own warlocks all the time, there so easy to beat. A warlock will beat a mage almost every time. So dont come here and say I own a warlock everytime, because that is just a blatant lie. Exceptions are the mage resists death coil and the warlock sucks.
And the truth is mages dont own warlock, warlocks own mages.
And yes as of right now warlocks is similar gear will out dps a mage in a raid. Blizzard even admitts that. Other classes in simular gear will out dps a mage in a raid, and blizzards admitts that too. So I dont get how you can sit here and say that a mages dps is fine in raids. HENCE WHY MAGES ARE GETTING A DAMAGE BUFF.
And of course people are going to chose a mage for CC over a warlock for CC in a instance, unless its heroic mech. So I dont know what we are arguing here.
The way it is right now, Warlocks beat mages in duels. Mages will get chosen for a group over a warlock. And Warlocks will out damage a mage in a raid. (assuming the classes are of equal gear and skill). And again that is why mages are getting a damage buff.
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Quote:
Warlocks dont need to worry about talent selection. Whatever tree they go for, theyre going to out dps mages and since they have fear regardless of spec, PVP between warlock and mage is always going to result in an easy win for teh lock
MORAN
#29REDACTED,
Posted: Oct 14 2007 at 1:41 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) I m guessing you play a lock, in which case youre the "moran".
22 posts
i wish i was skilled enough to DoT DoT fear everything but i guess ill stick to actually doing stuff and have more of purpose in groups.
I probably should resist the temptation to post, but .... just can't.
Mage DPS is less than warlock DPS even with the 10% nerf coming off. There was some data out there of high end raids (BT) using WWS that was posted on elitistjerks.com that showed mages being outdpsed by 157% by locks, 130% by hunters, 140% by rogues and such. I wish I could find it, but that's raw data to look at and, as that's BT, you would think the mages would be both geared as well and know their class by then. The fact is mages don't scale as well as other classes with dps. Now, in Kara, the 10% damage tax removal will be very visible. Personally, I doubt that I'll ever make it to BT before WotLK comes out as I just am not going to do crazy raid schedules. I will probably stay in Kara, SSC and the like (esp after hearing how difficult and coordinated the fights are for Kael (sp?) in TK).
For PvP, a fair warlock will usually kill a mage unless there are some unlucky resists or (for some stupid reason) the lock doesn't have his felpuppy out and spell locking the mage. Now, I'm not griping about this, as I have a rogue and I eat warlocks for lunch (but those warriors! ZOMG!). I think mages need to have a class that can kick them in the can, or they'd be OP.
Well, there you go. Oh... and for sheep being a terrible CC... while it does heal the target up, if you use it in the beginning of a fight (when the mob already has full health), it's one of the only CC that lasts forever and can be reapplied at will. Sap requires the mob not be in combat, seduce is pretty short duration (you really have to watch it closely), ice trap is short duration (unless it's you that is trapped, then it lasts forever), etc.
All that being said... I LOVE MY MAGE.
Mage DPS is less than warlock DPS even with the 10% nerf coming off. There was some data out there of high end raids (BT) using WWS that was posted on elitistjerks.com that showed mages being outdpsed by 157% by locks, 130% by hunters, 140% by rogues and such. I wish I could find it, but that's raw data to look at and, as that's BT, you would think the mages would be both geared as well and know their class by then. The fact is mages don't scale as well as other classes with dps. Now, in Kara, the 10% damage tax removal will be very visible. Personally, I doubt that I'll ever make it to BT before WotLK comes out as I just am not going to do crazy raid schedules. I will probably stay in Kara, SSC and the like (esp after hearing how difficult and coordinated the fights are for Kael (sp?) in TK).
For PvP, a fair warlock will usually kill a mage unless there are some unlucky resists or (for some stupid reason) the lock doesn't have his felpuppy out and spell locking the mage. Now, I'm not griping about this, as I have a rogue and I eat warlocks for lunch (but those warriors! ZOMG!). I think mages need to have a class that can kick them in the can, or they'd be OP.
Well, there you go. Oh... and for sheep being a terrible CC... while it does heal the target up, if you use it in the beginning of a fight (when the mob already has full health), it's one of the only CC that lasts forever and can be reapplied at will. Sap requires the mob not be in combat, seduce is pretty short duration (you really have to watch it closely), ice trap is short duration (unless it's you that is trapped, then it lasts forever), etc.
All that being said... I LOVE MY MAGE.
Why take a mage?
All 3 specs of mages have high burst damage relative to other classes.
Only Destruction has high burst damage for warlocks.
On my fire mage, I can take out level 68s in two spellcasts, a crit pyro and a crit fireball. And with a 33% chance to crit, not taking Combustion into consideration, crits happen incredibly often. And Master of Elements and Essence-Infused Mushroom (or is it Power-Infused?) make for great mana returns.
While Affliction warlocks have amazing mana efficiency, they cannot kill fast while maintaining that efficiency. My mage farmed the large cavern on Warmaul Hill (the cave that has Cho'war the Pillager at the end) from entrance to just before Cho'war, then dropped down to the entrance and did it again, and then dropped down and got halfway more before having to drink. My spec is 4/54/3. A destruction warlock could match the speed at which I kill enemies, but run out of mana and have to life tap and then eventually slow down Drain Health, or maybe bandage, or eat, or cannibalize. An affliction warlock could outdo my mana efficiency, but take about three times as long.
In raids, the situation is different, the fights are longer, and warlocks beat mages in DPS, this is true. But mages are incredibly handy for the sheep in instances (much much more than fear in instances), portals for everyone, free drinks and food.
The mage used to traditionally be considered pure, raw damage. It still does a huge amount of it even if it's not always number one anymore, and it has utility abilities to justify its existence. Personally, I've only beat warlocks in chaotic BGs, never in Arena skirmishes (I don't do ranked), never in duels or 1 v 1 PvP. I know that any spec'd warlock has an easy time against most non-PvP geared mages. I know that warlocks because of their life tap, heals, and DoTs, outdamage mages in raids often.
But I can't see why I'd ever give up a mage for a warlock when mages fill their own role, which is also very fun to play.
And I still can't get over,
I really actually want to see an armory profile with a toon having 300 in all resists, regardless of having 10K health or even 3K.
All 3 specs of mages have high burst damage relative to other classes.
Only Destruction has high burst damage for warlocks.
On my fire mage, I can take out level 68s in two spellcasts, a crit pyro and a crit fireball. And with a 33% chance to crit, not taking Combustion into consideration, crits happen incredibly often. And Master of Elements and Essence-Infused Mushroom (or is it Power-Infused?) make for great mana returns.
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Warlocks dont need to worry about talent selection. Whatever tree they go for, theyre going to out dps mages and since they have fear regardless of spec, PVP between warlock and mage is always going to result in an easy win for teh lock
While Affliction warlocks have amazing mana efficiency, they cannot kill fast while maintaining that efficiency. My mage farmed the large cavern on Warmaul Hill (the cave that has Cho'war the Pillager at the end) from entrance to just before Cho'war, then dropped down to the entrance and did it again, and then dropped down and got halfway more before having to drink. My spec is 4/54/3. A destruction warlock could match the speed at which I kill enemies, but run out of mana and have to life tap and then eventually slow down Drain Health, or maybe bandage, or eat, or cannibalize. An affliction warlock could outdo my mana efficiency, but take about three times as long.
In raids, the situation is different, the fights are longer, and warlocks beat mages in DPS, this is true. But mages are incredibly handy for the sheep in instances (much much more than fear in instances), portals for everyone, free drinks and food.
The mage used to traditionally be considered pure, raw damage. It still does a huge amount of it even if it's not always number one anymore, and it has utility abilities to justify its existence. Personally, I've only beat warlocks in chaotic BGs, never in Arena skirmishes (I don't do ranked), never in duels or 1 v 1 PvP. I know that any spec'd warlock has an easy time against most non-PvP geared mages. I know that warlocks because of their life tap, heals, and DoTs, outdamage mages in raids often.
But I can't see why I'd ever give up a mage for a warlock when mages fill their own role, which is also very fun to play.
And I still can't get over,
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It is the most vulnerable class in the game, bar none. On the other hand, its not unheard of for a well geared warlock to reach 300 in all resists whith HP well over 10k.
I really actually want to see an armory profile with a toon having 300 in all resists, regardless of having 10K health or even 3K.
#33REDACTED,
Posted: Oct 15 2007 at 10:09 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Umm, no. 1 g per portal or gtfo.
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Umm, no. 1 g per portal or gtfo.
That's a different thread, also on the front page.... lol
Anobix wrote:
I am going to assume that you have never, once, been to TK/SSC or else you would know that sheeping is almost required.
Banish is almost required for the trash by Void Reaver as well as Leo's trash, and locks are extremely important for Mags. Can't comment on MH/BT, but from as far as I've been lock CC is almost, if not equally as important as mage CC. Sheep's still important of course, but my guild's had to change targets for the night because of lack of warlocks.
Here's me and here's a really good lock in my guild. Our gear is extremely comparable (he's getting 100 damage from Fel Armor in his armory, and he normally has more hit but a little less damage, probably swapped some pieces for a 5-man), and on bosses where neither of us die or have special duties (like sheeping a Guardian on Lurker) he crushes me. I guess I must not know how to play my class.
The coefficient unnerf will be nice, for me it amounts to about 5% more dps. Still not enough though IMO.
Edited, Oct 15th 2007 3:13pm by Theophastus
They're both important, but Sheep still tends to win on anything except VR trash... and frankly it's not even needed there - you're usually better off burning down the little sawblade suckers rather than having them nuke your raid in the split-second after banish expires but before it can be reapplied.
Try doing the Kael trash without a ton of sheeps sometime and you enter a whole new section of hell.
Here's me and here's a really good lock in my guild. Our gear is extremely comparable (he's getting 100 damage from Fel Armor in his armory, and he normally has more hit but a little less damage, probably swapped some pieces for a 5-man), and on bosses where neither of us die or have special duties (like sheeping a Guardian on Lurker) he crushes me. I guess I must not know how to play my class.
Try picking up 2/5 T5 and trying Arcane.
Try doing the Kael trash without a ton of sheeps sometime and you enter a whole new section of hell.
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Here's me and here's a really good lock in my guild. Our gear is extremely comparable (he's getting 100 damage from Fel Armor in his armory, and he normally has more hit but a little less damage, probably swapped some pieces for a 5-man), and on bosses where neither of us die or have special duties (like sheeping a Guardian on Lurker) he crushes me. I guess I must not know how to play my class.
Try picking up 2/5 T5 and trying Arcane.
i was on gruul with my mage on an attempt to kill high king maulgar.i am specced 40/21/0 (if you say it's not for raiding, you might be surprised).
all the others in my guild already had 2/5 t5 nathrezim or leviathan and some gladiator..
i am still holding a blue sword with 120 dmg 1/5 t4 spell fire and spellstrike sets..MUCH inferior dps than what they have.
when high king is dead i am second on dmg output with a lock (my gm actually) being first for only 15k dmg
ofc you can outdps EVERY1 not just a lock.ofc your mana can last if you know how to do it.ofc we need spriest and shamy in our grp.ofc we can beat a lock in 1v1 situations.and ofc sheep is the only CC that can last forever in pve.so stop the theorycrafting and go for the facts.
black morass.me and an evenly geared lock
me (on adds):57% dmg
lock :26% dmg
and again on another run
me : 76% dmg
lock (on adds): 17% dmg
all the others in my guild already had 2/5 t5 nathrezim or leviathan and some gladiator..
i am still holding a blue sword with 120 dmg 1/5 t4 spell fire and spellstrike sets..MUCH inferior dps than what they have.
when high king is dead i am second on dmg output with a lock (my gm actually) being first for only 15k dmg
ofc you can outdps EVERY1 not just a lock.ofc your mana can last if you know how to do it.ofc we need spriest and shamy in our grp.ofc we can beat a lock in 1v1 situations.and ofc sheep is the only CC that can last forever in pve.so stop the theorycrafting and go for the facts.
black morass.me and an evenly geared lock
me (on adds):57% dmg
lock :26% dmg
and again on another run
me : 76% dmg
lock (on adds): 17% dmg
Then you must play your mage and crapload better than that warlock. Blizzard has admitted that a mage and a warlock who have equal gear and equal skill, the warlock will always win in dps. Same with most other classes, mages have one of the worst damage output in raids, assuming equally geared and skilled.
Thats the end of the discussion, right now mages are one of the worst classes to take raid with, in terms of dps output, and blizzard admitts that.
Thats the end of the discussion, right now mages are one of the worst classes to take raid with, in terms of dps output, and blizzard admitts that.
zxcy wrote:
Then you must play your mage and crapload better than that warlock. Blizzard has admitted that a mage and a warlock who have equal gear and equal skill, the warlock will always win in dps. Same with most other classes, mages have one of the worst damage output in raids, assuming equally geared and skilled.
Thats the end of the discussion, right now mages are one of the worst classes to take raid with, in terms of dps output, and blizzard admitts that.
Thats the end of the discussion, right now mages are one of the worst classes to take raid with, in terms of dps output, and blizzard admitts that.
What are you smoking to think that mages have some of the least damage output? Either the mages in your guild do not work well together or are terrible with their spell rotations. I always come within the top 5, depending on the fight I can be in the top 3 and sometimes #1. It entirely depends on the fight though, the HKM fight is a poor example for some mages because one is invariably tanking Krosh (me for instance) so I rarely use any damage spells besides enough to hold aggro and keep spellstealing. With fights where there is constant movement or adds, of course warlocks are going to win, they can dot up every single add that comes onto the screen and then focus fire on one. Where mages excel is the straight nuking of a single mob, the only other class that can come close to beating a mage is sometimes a fury warrior and a rogue (both of specced and geared correctly).
What more does it take. BLIZZARD EVENT ADMITS THAT MAGES DAMAGE OUTPUT IS LOWER THAN THE DAMAGE OUTPUT OF OTHER CLASSES WITH SAME GEAR AND SKILL.
zxcy wrote:
What more does it take. BLIZZARD EVENT ADMITS THAT MAGES DAMAGE OUTPUT IS LOWER THAN THE DAMAGE OUTPUT OF OTHER CLASSES WITH SAME GEAR AND SKILL.
IF I TYPE IN CAPS MAYBE I CAN BE COOL TOO!
The One and Only Poldaran wrote:
IF I TYPE IN CAPS MAYBE I CAN BE COOL TOO!
NOWAI, your claims to coolness include a green name, a title, a spiffy sig, a cry moar noob icon and a certain amount of knowledge and wittiness.
Leave the caps to the noobs who have none of that.
I'm speaking as a hunter here, I love it when mages are in a group. Because then I don't need to trap on every. single. pull. Usually a warlock will just keep an imp out on passive for the buff, which is nice, but it negates any real pet control and the warlock is on easy mode.
Also, who can complain about free water?
Also, who can complain about free water?
zxcy wrote:
What more does it take. BLIZZARD EVENT ADMITS THAT MAGES DAMAGE OUTPUT IS LOWER THAN THE DAMAGE OUTPUT OF OTHER CLASSES WITH SAME GEAR AND SKILL.
can you link to a blue post saying this?
I rly don't think he can link to a blue post.he has just heard it somewhere.
anyway i don't think that all the locks in my server are noobs and this is the reason I overdps them.If you play a mage and actually enjoy it then you must be good at it.ofc i can be outdps by any other dpsing class but that doen't mean "they are uber classes and the game is imbalanced against us!!!"..
a week ago we went through ssc..me and the other mage were last on the dps on trash..does that mean we are noobs???NO..it means our job there was to keep the sheeps..not to dps.
and if you actually play a mage you will find out for yourself that it takes skill to play a mage..but i don't think you have it.
anyway i don't think that all the locks in my server are noobs and this is the reason I overdps them.If you play a mage and actually enjoy it then you must be good at it.ofc i can be outdps by any other dpsing class but that doen't mean "they are uber classes and the game is imbalanced against us!!!"..
a week ago we went through ssc..me and the other mage were last on the dps on trash..does that mean we are noobs???NO..it means our job there was to keep the sheeps..not to dps.
and if you actually play a mage you will find out for yourself that it takes skill to play a mage..but i don't think you have it.
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What more does it take. BLIZZARD EVENT ADMITS THAT MAGES DAMAGE OUTPUT IS LOWER THAN THE DAMAGE OUTPUT OF OTHER CLASSES WITH SAME GEAR AND SKILL.
Duh. That's because a mage is a CASTER. Of course a warrior wearing cloth and using the same staff will have a higher damage output.
You sir, are not a sharp one I think. Perhaps early on, a mage can get away with the occasional melee attack, but I really cannot recall the last time I intentionally began to attack a target with my staff other than to gain skill for it. My staff skill is at 240, it's going to stay their long after I hit 70, simply because my wand is faster and has autoshoot, so I can stay put if a mob happens to be a runner.
Now, as far as spells, it is greatly debatable. In fact, let's take a quick look at Fireball vs Shadowbolt, final rank.
Shadowbolt:
420 Mana, 3.0 second cast time, 541-603 base damage (assuming no further talents are used to improve said spell)
Fireball:
425 Mana 3.5 second case time, 633-805 base damage plus 84 over 8 sec (assuming no further talents are used to improve spell.
DPS for Shadow: 180-201
DPS for Fireball: 180-230 not including ticks.
Fireball wins. More DPS and for the damage output, more mana effecient, not to mention the DoT effect. Simple numbers.
The math is basic division. I'm not really up to throwing in talent selections for optimum damage, but I'm willing to bet hard currency that a full specced fire mage using only fireball as the only nuke will outdamage a destructo specced lock using shadowbolt.
"Do you know what "nemesis" means? A righteous infliction of retribution manifested by an appropriate agent. Personified in this case by an 'orrible c*** : me."
I did put up top DPS on Lurker last night (by a margin of 10.3% to the next highest person's 8.8% and the third at 8.5%, both also mages), but Lurker's one of those fights where it's great to be a mage. The demo lock guildy I linked wasn't there, just a couple lesser-geared afflics, which is a shame because I was looking forward to a showdown.
Then you're ignoring the part that's more important than the base spells themselves.
Edited, Oct 16th 2007 1:34pm by Theophastus
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I'm not really up to throwing in talent selections for optimum damage
Then you're ignoring the part that's more important than the base spells themselves.
Edited, Oct 16th 2007 1:34pm by Theophastus
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Then you're ignoring the part that's more important than the base spells themselves.
Yes I am, but okay, here's some more figures to crunch on. All gear being equal Fireball's DPS changes with a +13% to damage (from Playing with Fire and Firepower)and a lower cast time (to 3.0 seconds)
Shadowbolt in a full destucto-spec only ganes one benefit, that being from Bane which reduces cast time by half a second.
Fireball (with Full on Fire Spec):
238-303 DPS; A Normal cast would hit for 715-910, assuming gear being equal and no bonus spell damage. (This does not include ticks from Fireball).
Shadowbolt (with full on Destruction Spec):
216-241 DPS; A Normal cast would hit for 541-603, assuming gear being equal and no bonus spell damage
And yes, ok, Shadowbolt does gain one more talent for non-crit bonus, so here we go with Shadow Mastery from the Affliction Talent:
237-265 DPS, with the normal cast hitting for approximatley 590 to 660 damage, assuming of course gear being equal with no bonus spell damage.
Crits included, Fireball's margin would be far superior to Shadowbolt given 40% of the crit over 4 seconds thanks to ignite.
"Do you know what "nemesis" means? A righteous infliction of retribution manifested by an appropriate agent. Personified in this case by an 'orrible c*** : me."
AFAIK, the big DPS discrepancy that occurrs between mages and warlocks exists at higher levels than Kara and such. It may start to show up more in SSC, TK and definately by BT. It's a scaling issue with mages just not scaling as well with higher amounts of spell damage. That's the only thing that I've seen out at elitistjerks.com. Now, in practice, I've yet to be lucky enough to be closely enough geared with a warlock through kara. Either they far outgear me, or I far outgear them, so I've not gotten a lot of good head-to-head comparisons with similarly geared locks.
There ya go, my 2 cents.
Edited, Oct 16th 2007 1:16pm by ktangent
There ya go, my 2 cents.
Edited, Oct 16th 2007 1:16pm by ktangent
You billy are not the sharp one. What I meant is the same gear level, not the actual gear. How you ever achieved sage i do not know.
And as for blizzard admitting it part, someone link it from a forum to allakhazam regarding the 2.3 patch. I will try to find it, it may take a while, because it was a couple of weeks ago. Thats where I got this infromation from.
It went a something like this: In the test realms blizzard tested mages in full spellfire and spellstrike gear, and came to the conclusion that they were too powerful and therefore nerfed them. But blizzard was wrong and their calculations too, and they nerfed us too hard, and therefore other classes are going to out damage us.
And that is why we are getting the coefficient taken away, to boost our damage by like 7%. There you have it they nerfed us, and they nerfed us to hard. Now we are getting our buff. I will try to find the post where it came from.
P.S. Im not just talking about warlocks im talking about other dps classes too.
And as for blizzard admitting it part, someone link it from a forum to allakhazam regarding the 2.3 patch. I will try to find it, it may take a while, because it was a couple of weeks ago. Thats where I got this infromation from.
It went a something like this: In the test realms blizzard tested mages in full spellfire and spellstrike gear, and came to the conclusion that they were too powerful and therefore nerfed them. But blizzard was wrong and their calculations too, and they nerfed us too hard, and therefore other classes are going to out damage us.
And that is why we are getting the coefficient taken away, to boost our damage by like 7%. There you have it they nerfed us, and they nerfed us to hard. Now we are getting our buff. I will try to find the post where it came from.
P.S. Im not just talking about warlocks im talking about other dps classes too.
Quote:
It went a something like this: In the test realms blizzard tested mages in full spellfire and spellstrike gear, and came to the conclusion that they were too powerful and therefore nerfed them. But blizzard was wrong and their calculations too, and they nerfed us too hard, and therefore other classes are going to out damage us.
And that is why we are getting the coefficient taken away, to boost our damage by like 7%. There you have it they nerfed us, and they nerfed us to hard. Now we are getting our buff. I will try to find the post where it came from.
And that is why we are getting the coefficient taken away, to boost our damage by like 7%. There you have it they nerfed us, and they nerfed us to hard. Now we are getting our buff. I will try to find the post where it came from.
Indeed, I remember that post, but from the data I found at elitistjerks.com from WWS, it looks like the un-nerf won't put us back on par with other DPS classes when we're all geared out in full T6 (as are the other dps classes such as rogues, hunters and warlocks), so hopefully they'll fix that later as well (we'll all start noticing it when we start leveling to 80, I'd guess).
I hope this is not misinterpreted as QQing, I'm just stating what I have read at other places and trying not to make a 'nerf the world' type of post.
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