As our classes' traditional roles become blurred with those of a certain other mana based DPS class, the question must be asked of why a raid leader should choose a mage over said other mana based DPS? I cannot see any reson to do so:
1. DPS: traditionally the mages' forte, raw DPS is the speciality of our class and indeed the only thing a mage is competent in. Therefore, if a mage can be beaten in terms of DPS, as a pure DPS class it is pointless. Certain builds of mage can, with low mana efficiency, maintain DPS to rival, for example, a warlock. However, if this approach is taken, the mage will become useless in long fights (as the vast majority of boss fights are) since we are talking of PvE (PvP mage vs. lock creates an even more unbalanced scenario, into which I will not go). The mages DPS is lower than that of a warlock for a number of reasons:
-Coefficient nerf: for some unknown reason, Blizzard decided to change the +spell damage coefficient on Fireball in accordance to talents used to shorten the cast time, unlike all other talent-shortened direct damage spells . This significantly reduces the potential DPS of a well geared mage, and no other class suffers this problem.
-As mentioned above, DPS is important only when it is measured as intended, dividing the total ammount of damage caused by the length of the fight (otherwise the highest DPS class is a 3 minute mage, with a DPS often over 8000). Therefore, mana efficiency and mana regeneration are vitally important in order to deal serious damage for as long as possible. The mage, when causing damage, will never be out of the 5 second rule. Talents and an armour spell are available to allow some spirit based regen during casting, but both of these result in a decrease in DPS (also note that mage gear is poor in spirit, and any attempt to invest in spirit will result in further DPS decrease). Therefore we can rule this out as anything more thab a negligible means of mana regen. Also available are mana pots (available to all classes and hence will not be discussed) and mana gems. Mana gems are, in effect, a one use mana potion restoring ~1364 mana. This is useful but not extraordinary. The last means of mana regen is the spell evocation. For an averagely geared mage, this will restore 60-70% mana when used. obviously it is a very useful spell that near doubles the length of time the mage can count on having mana. However, it is severely affected by taking damage and cannot obvioulsy be used while moving as it is a channeled spell.
Therefore, the mage's total mana regen during a fight consists of the mana pots, mana gems and evocation. This ammounts to roughly 120mp5. Fireball takes ~ 730 mp5 if spammed efficiently but we can assue ~400mp5 if not spammed constantly. Therefore, at 400mp5used and with starting mana of 11,000 a mage's mana will last for just over 3 minutes. Therefore, a mage has 3 minutes of DPS comparable to that of a warlock.
Compare this to a warlock, who very rarely runs out of mana due to massive hp and an ability regenerate hp quickly and turn this into mana. They can maintain DPS equivalent to a mage almost indefinately.
2. Survivability. Little needs to be said on this subject. The mage has very low HP and armour. Unless it is a frost mage, (in which case it has some handy tricks at the expense of DPS), It is the most vulnerable class in the game, bar none. On the other hand, its not unheard of for a well geared warlock to reach 300 in all resists whith HP well over 10k.
Someone please tell me if im wrong, but i dont see the point of mages anymore?
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Another QQ thread about warlocks.
How about you go roll a warlock, and start an all warlock raid guild. You'll bring 3 tanks, 5 healers and 17 warlocks, I'm sure you'll be farming black temple in weeks.
How about you go roll a warlock, and start an all warlock raid guild. You'll bring 3 tanks, 5 healers and 17 warlocks, I'm sure you'll be farming black temple in weeks.
For being a warlock you must have really stocked up on +crit talents because the wall of text just took me down.
On a more serious note, people take us because we make our own water+food, duh. Oh, and in 2.3 the dmg coefficient will be gone, so look forward to seeing mages doing about 10% more damage... thus likely out dpsing a warlock and more evenly, if not surpassing rogues. Oh, and about mana efficiency... that is what shadow priests are for. We also have a nice ability to stop doing damage after casting much faster than warlocks do incase of aggro wipes.
Edited, Oct 9th 2007 11:12pm by Anobix
Edited, Oct 9th 2007 11:13pm by Anobix
On a more serious note, people take us because we make our own water+food, duh. Oh, and in 2.3 the dmg coefficient will be gone, so look forward to seeing mages doing about 10% more damage... thus likely out dpsing a warlock and more evenly, if not surpassing rogues. Oh, and about mana efficiency... that is what shadow priests are for. We also have a nice ability to stop doing damage after casting much faster than warlocks do incase of aggro wipes.
Edited, Oct 9th 2007 11:12pm by Anobix
Edited, Oct 9th 2007 11:13pm by Anobix
Because mages are cooler than Legolazzzzzzzz or Aragonzzzzz..duh
Edited, Oct 10th 2007 1:25am by Hatoa
Edited, Oct 10th 2007 1:25am by Hatoa
I love the flogging of the dead horse. Also our CC doesn't suck *** in pve. And wot's he mean about that pvp quirk? A mage CAN beat a lock in pvp if he is spec for it. Jeez.
The coefficient nerf is being taken out in 2.3, And so what if locks can out dps you over the long run, you got a good CC which every raid and group try to never be without.
I hardly ever see "LF1M Lock PST" on the LFG channel...in fact i don't think i've ever seen it....what i have seen is a hell of a lot of "LF Mage!" "Need a Mage!"
And if you're only interested in DPS, then raids and groups aren't for you.
Raids and groups are about effective teamwork and utility of each class.
Trying to get the maximum DPS will just put more stress on the tank, usually resulting in him/her losing aggro and a wipe ensuing cause you were too greedy.
I hardly ever see "LF1M Lock PST" on the LFG channel...in fact i don't think i've ever seen it....what i have seen is a hell of a lot of "LF Mage!" "Need a Mage!"
And if you're only interested in DPS, then raids and groups aren't for you.
Raids and groups are about effective teamwork and utility of each class.
Trying to get the maximum DPS will just put more stress on the tank, usually resulting in him/her losing aggro and a wipe ensuing cause you were too greedy.
+1 tbh
as for dps... im a frost mage. on trash mobs my dps is lower as im busy nova'ing in front of a healer to stop them dying, keeping a target polymorphed or ice blocking if i get aggro. on bosses i shoot up top as my mana retention so far is better than any other mana user i've raided with. do i care? hardly - as person above said raids and instances aren't about "oo look at the big numbers i'm sooo OP". i chose mage for crowd control, endurance and dps when it matters and my spec (17/0/44) shows that.
as point of interest every warlock i've partied with has a) feared and drew in additional aggro b) cant cc for anything c) seems a hassle. you see any1 ask for a warlock for a group? no. its like rogues - good in theory but in pve situations/ guilds not many takers
we're getting buffed anyway and tbh i couldn't care less for this "oh mages are supposed to do the most damage". do that = aggro = wipe
i love my mage. i hate warlocks - not out of jealousy but because they're only good because they aren't nerfed like every other WoW class.
N
as for dps... im a frost mage. on trash mobs my dps is lower as im busy nova'ing in front of a healer to stop them dying, keeping a target polymorphed or ice blocking if i get aggro. on bosses i shoot up top as my mana retention so far is better than any other mana user i've raided with. do i care? hardly - as person above said raids and instances aren't about "oo look at the big numbers i'm sooo OP". i chose mage for crowd control, endurance and dps when it matters and my spec (17/0/44) shows that.
as point of interest every warlock i've partied with has a) feared and drew in additional aggro b) cant cc for anything c) seems a hassle. you see any1 ask for a warlock for a group? no. its like rogues - good in theory but in pve situations/ guilds not many takers
we're getting buffed anyway and tbh i couldn't care less for this "oh mages are supposed to do the most damage". do that = aggro = wipe
i love my mage. i hate warlocks - not out of jealousy but because they're only good because they aren't nerfed like every other WoW class.
N
Shut your whining and make some food n' drink!
22 posts
this was a joke right.....
Damoloces wrote:
Someone please tell me if im wrong, but i dont see the point of mages anymore?
Spec Bread and Water, you'll be taken along as a support mage. We'll take the other mages for DPS and CC, thank you very much.
Edited, Oct 10th 2007 4:42pm by Alastaironsiren
Some helpful and reasoned comments here, which is a lot better than what i get on the official forums.
- The LFG channel is for groups, not raids. This post is about raids. In groups, a mage undoubtably has its uses in CC and acting as a vending machine (although a well geared warlock will considerably out DPS it). In raids, you will be hard pressed even to find an add that can be sheeped, and water/food can be provided by someones alt without the need to take an inferior DPS class into the raid.
- I didnt know the coefficient nerf was being removed, that goes some way towards making mages viable again.
- To the person who asked what i meant about the PvP inequality, what are you on? A warlock need only cast fear, and the mage is dead. It is commonly acknowledged that a lock is a mage's anticlass and that assuming equal skill and gear, a warlock always wins. The lock fears you and stacks multiple dots which VERY RARELY break the fear. You are left running around helpless until you die. Its been said before, but personally i would rather the lock had a "kill mage" ability because that would lead to the same inevitable conclusion, and make the process much more painless
- The LFG channel is for groups, not raids. This post is about raids. In groups, a mage undoubtably has its uses in CC and acting as a vending machine (although a well geared warlock will considerably out DPS it). In raids, you will be hard pressed even to find an add that can be sheeped, and water/food can be provided by someones alt without the need to take an inferior DPS class into the raid.
- I didnt know the coefficient nerf was being removed, that goes some way towards making mages viable again.
- To the person who asked what i meant about the PvP inequality, what are you on? A warlock need only cast fear, and the mage is dead. It is commonly acknowledged that a lock is a mage's anticlass and that assuming equal skill and gear, a warlock always wins. The lock fears you and stacks multiple dots which VERY RARELY break the fear. You are left running around helpless until you die. Its been said before, but personally i would rather the lock had a "kill mage" ability because that would lead to the same inevitable conclusion, and make the process much more painless
I don't want to argue the point of warlock vs. mage DPS. That is a dead horse. I cannot wait until the 2.3 coefficient buff.
I'd like to talk about the mana efficiency point. As a 10/48/3 fire mage, I feel that I have awesome mana efficiency. First of all, you can use all of your mana gems in any given fight (I usually make the top 4). So as soon as I use up 2000 mana or so, I pop the first one. This allows the cooldown to start so that I can pop the second one faster. I alternate gems and mana pots. Throw in an evocate, and I rarely go OOM.
The fire build is an excellent one for mana efficiency, assuming that you have a high crit rate (in raids I am at 30-35% depending on buffs/moonkins). I'd actually love this to be better (and am striving for it). Crit mixed with ignite will give you most of your DPS, but also, is a source of mana regen because of this talent:
3 points Master of Elements (refunds 30% mana with crit)
There are several other talents which reduce mana cost and increase crit:
3 points in elemental precision (reduces mana cost by 3%)
2 points incinerate (increase crit chance)
3 points critical mass (increase crit rate by 6%)
3 points Pyromaniac (increase crit chance and reduces mana)
1 point Combustion (3 guaranteed crits in 10)
So in a prolonged raid boss fight, there is rarely a time in which I run out of mana. Either the boss dies first or we do! Either way, mana should not be an issue.
I'd like to talk about the mana efficiency point. As a 10/48/3 fire mage, I feel that I have awesome mana efficiency. First of all, you can use all of your mana gems in any given fight (I usually make the top 4). So as soon as I use up 2000 mana or so, I pop the first one. This allows the cooldown to start so that I can pop the second one faster. I alternate gems and mana pots. Throw in an evocate, and I rarely go OOM.
The fire build is an excellent one for mana efficiency, assuming that you have a high crit rate (in raids I am at 30-35% depending on buffs/moonkins). I'd actually love this to be better (and am striving for it). Crit mixed with ignite will give you most of your DPS, but also, is a source of mana regen because of this talent:
3 points Master of Elements (refunds 30% mana with crit)
There are several other talents which reduce mana cost and increase crit:
3 points in elemental precision (reduces mana cost by 3%)
2 points incinerate (increase crit chance)
3 points critical mass (increase crit rate by 6%)
3 points Pyromaniac (increase crit chance and reduces mana)
1 point Combustion (3 guaranteed crits in 10)
So in a prolonged raid boss fight, there is rarely a time in which I run out of mana. Either the boss dies first or we do! Either way, mana should not be an issue.
Yeah, Master of Elements and fire mage crit percentage make his '3-minutes of casting' very far off from the truth.
I have never heard of anyone having full 300 resists in everything.
I have never heard of anyone having full 300 resists in everything.
Damoloces wrote:
Some helpful and reasoned comments here, which is a lot better than what i get on the official forums.
- The LFG channel is for groups, not raids. This post is about raids. In groups, a mage undoubtably has its uses in CC and acting as a vending machine (although a well geared warlock will considerably out DPS it). In raids, you will be hard pressed even to find an add that can be sheeped, and water/food can be provided by someones alt without the need to take an inferior DPS class into the raid.
- I didnt know the coefficient nerf was being removed, that goes some way towards making mages viable again.
- To the person who asked what i meant about the PvP inequality, what are you on? A warlock need only cast fear, and the mage is dead. It is commonly acknowledged that a lock is a mage's anticlass and that assuming equal skill and gear, a warlock always wins. The lock fears you and stacks multiple dots which VERY RARELY break the fear. You are left running around helpless until you die. Its been said before, but personally i would rather the lock had a "kill mage" ability because that would lead to the same inevitable conclusion, and make the process much more painless
- The LFG channel is for groups, not raids. This post is about raids. In groups, a mage undoubtably has its uses in CC and acting as a vending machine (although a well geared warlock will considerably out DPS it). In raids, you will be hard pressed even to find an add that can be sheeped, and water/food can be provided by someones alt without the need to take an inferior DPS class into the raid.
- I didnt know the coefficient nerf was being removed, that goes some way towards making mages viable again.
- To the person who asked what i meant about the PvP inequality, what are you on? A warlock need only cast fear, and the mage is dead. It is commonly acknowledged that a lock is a mage's anticlass and that assuming equal skill and gear, a warlock always wins. The lock fears you and stacks multiple dots which VERY RARELY break the fear. You are left running around helpless until you die. Its been said before, but personally i would rather the lock had a "kill mage" ability because that would lead to the same inevitable conclusion, and make the process much more painless
I am going to assume that you have never, once, been to TK/SSC or else you would know that sheeping is almost required.
Each time I think of SSC and our Lurker attempts (still unsuccessful) I recall the cries of "polymorph polymorph" over vent.
I also report targets getting loose over vent as well. Its a mess sometimes cos ppl forget and do their cleave or swipe near a sheep.
I also report targets getting loose over vent as well. Its a mess sometimes cos ppl forget and do their cleave or swipe near a sheep.
Quote:
- To the person who asked what i meant about the PvP inequality, what are you on? A warlock need only cast fear, and the mage is dead. It is commonly acknowledged that a lock is a mage's anticlass and that assuming equal skill and gear, a warlock always wins. The lock fears you and stacks multiple dots which VERY RARELY break the fear. You are left running around helpless until you die. Its been said before, but personally i would rather the lock had a "kill mage" ability because that would lead to the same inevitable conclusion, and make the process much more painless
Uhhhh that'd be me and I don't think I'm on much.
Fear. Is. Not. The. End. All.
Fight a specced mage. You will be insta-sheeped so fast you head will still be spinning. Your overly fragil pet will drop and you will be left to 1)Deathcoil and hope you can spam a fear onto it (if I don't resist it) 2)HoT me for the same effect. Only problem...? I'll trink/block/WotF out of it, CS your next fear and burst you to death. Even if you can out deeps me in the long run...you can't out burst me nor live through my bursts (tanks can't take em...I know you can't)
The era of mages not knowing how to beat locks is over and I'm sorry if that memo didn't get passed along to you. I have a 70 lock. I have a 70 mage. I love my lock. I pvp with my mage. GG.
*edit* oh and were you aware that IB wipes dots AND fear? No? Oh...heh. Go run heroic mech again.
Edited, Oct 10th 2007 7:06pm by Xiemage
I had to make a account just to post after seeing the thread... but then Xiemage said it all for me :(
First off.. quick run in shatt halls today... Lock was better geared yet my just 70 mage with 2 epics out DPSd him (and yes... he did fear a mob into another group not once.. but twice). Not only did I out DPS.. I never pulled agro and died like he did 3 times.
Arena today.. only ran into 2 locks at once today.. me and dr00d. Beat down 1 lock so fast he was still looking for his fear button as he died. No.. noob.. fear is pretty useless now unless you either A) sneak up behind someone or B) are running WC. Fear me once.. WoTF out.. again you say? Trink out? Did you get a coil off??? I just resisted that one.. casting another are we?? Yeah.. just coutered that.. Now your silenced, 20% HP with more ticking away and I'm about to chuck a PoM pyro at you... better luck next time.
Locks are cool.. I love mine. But that whole "locks r00l all" thing is dead now. You didn't really think your one and only strat of DoT DoT fear was gonna work forever did you?
Edited, Oct 11th 2007 5:13am by DarkHybridX
First off.. quick run in shatt halls today... Lock was better geared yet my just 70 mage with 2 epics out DPSd him (and yes... he did fear a mob into another group not once.. but twice). Not only did I out DPS.. I never pulled agro and died like he did 3 times.
Arena today.. only ran into 2 locks at once today.. me and dr00d. Beat down 1 lock so fast he was still looking for his fear button as he died. No.. noob.. fear is pretty useless now unless you either A) sneak up behind someone or B) are running WC. Fear me once.. WoTF out.. again you say? Trink out? Did you get a coil off??? I just resisted that one.. casting another are we?? Yeah.. just coutered that.. Now your silenced, 20% HP with more ticking away and I'm about to chuck a PoM pyro at you... better luck next time.
Locks are cool.. I love mine. But that whole "locks r00l all" thing is dead now. You didn't really think your one and only strat of DoT DoT fear was gonna work forever did you?
Edited, Oct 11th 2007 5:13am by DarkHybridX
Mages are good for burst damage, handy for most bossfights that have adds.
Mages always are on add duty.
Mages can AOE, also good for 1-2 bossfights.
Mages CC, and indeed SSC/TK need a lot of CC.
Mages can dump all aggro with invisibility, use that 30% in a bossfight and a mage can nuke his heart out (if the boss doesnt have an aggro reset)
Mages dont have to really worry about aggro, again if the boss doesnt reset aggro.
Mages always are on add duty.
Mages can AOE, also good for 1-2 bossfights.
Mages CC, and indeed SSC/TK need a lot of CC.
Mages can dump all aggro with invisibility, use that 30% in a bossfight and a mage can nuke his heart out (if the boss doesnt have an aggro reset)
Mages dont have to really worry about aggro, again if the boss doesnt reset aggro.
#20REDACTED,
Posted: Oct 11 2007 at 4:19 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Fear. Is. The. End. All.
You do realise fear has quite a harsh DR on it? after trinket + IB i think your next fear will last about what....2 seconds? Just enough for that immolate. Then BAM! you're sheeped! then you're either Pyro'd or frozen and lanced
#22REDACTED,
Posted: Oct 11 2007 at 11:48 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) - Not all mages have IB
Quote:
- Not all mages have IB
- After trinket and IB, im already about half dead from DoT (I know IB removes dots, it doesnt remove the damage thevye already done)
- After trinket and IB, im already about half dead from DoT (I know IB removes dots, it doesnt remove the damage thevye already done)
Protip: PVP as frost and get more then 3700hp, kthx.
#24REDACTED,
Posted: Oct 12 2007 at 12:00 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) A 3 minute mage is commonly considered a good pvp build, and i have more than double that ammount of healths.
3 min pyro spec works ok in 2v2 and 3v3 (to a certain extent)
even then after you get to a certain point, the spec's glaring weakness become very apparant. High sta and resilience affects its power more than anything.
5v5s most teams view mages as important assets. To tell the truth, there can only be one spec there and that is the frost spec. Even with hypothermia, Mages still get by. Those who are stuck on the ice-block without hypothermia did not move on, the others did.
The next patch will buff Ice-barrier and make hypothermia last longer (45s). I think the tactics will still be the same, force an early iceblock and you would be able to focus fire a mage with little regard later. Warlocks the supreme class you rever, will get their SL/SL spec nerfed simply by having its self healing ability cut in half by MS warriors. The mage class will have a hard time with Warlocks its been like that since the inception of the game, it seems unbalanced but Warlocks suffer tremendous pressure from focus fire as their imba abilities are not that great when under attack by a skillherald swinging MS-warrior. They are also victims of dispell whereas mage's frontloaded damage can only be healed through and its not that easy since you can just switch to the healer and do stuff to them...
finally, what are you really interested in PvE or PvP? Warlocks face different issues when trying to function in both worlds. Yes they have sensational dps, but they do not drop threat like we can. Their burst ability is not inherent while ours are. They are two different classes and serve different needs. You seem to me to be also playing a retri paladin which need work but need to stop being a warrior as well.
even then after you get to a certain point, the spec's glaring weakness become very apparant. High sta and resilience affects its power more than anything.
5v5s most teams view mages as important assets. To tell the truth, there can only be one spec there and that is the frost spec. Even with hypothermia, Mages still get by. Those who are stuck on the ice-block without hypothermia did not move on, the others did.
The next patch will buff Ice-barrier and make hypothermia last longer (45s). I think the tactics will still be the same, force an early iceblock and you would be able to focus fire a mage with little regard later. Warlocks the supreme class you rever, will get their SL/SL spec nerfed simply by having its self healing ability cut in half by MS warriors. The mage class will have a hard time with Warlocks its been like that since the inception of the game, it seems unbalanced but Warlocks suffer tremendous pressure from focus fire as their imba abilities are not that great when under attack by a skillherald swinging MS-warrior. They are also victims of dispell whereas mage's frontloaded damage can only be healed through and its not that easy since you can just switch to the healer and do stuff to them...
finally, what are you really interested in PvE or PvP? Warlocks face different issues when trying to function in both worlds. Yes they have sensational dps, but they do not drop threat like we can. Their burst ability is not inherent while ours are. They are two different classes and serve different needs. You seem to me to be also playing a retri paladin which need work but need to stop being a warrior as well.
#26REDACTED,
Posted: Oct 14 2007 at 8:20 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Warlocks dont need to worry about talent selection. Whatever tree they go for, theyre going to out dps mages and since they have fear regardless of spec, PVP between warlock and mage is always going to result in an easy win for teh lock
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