I have been trying to find the best rogue raiding build that exists. This means the build that has the highest possible dps in ideal raid situations. This would be a build that the math supports as the highest damage.
Possible Options:
Mutilate
Combat Maces
Combat Swords
Combat Fists
Combat Daggers
Hemo
Sub
Other
Let's assume:
You have great tanks
You have great healers
You have a fully functional and organized raid group.
For Items:
Anything from world drops
Anything from 5 mans
Anything from 5 man heroics
Anything from Karazhan
Anything from Gruul's Lair
Anything from Magtheridon
Let's see math, legitmate criticism, and concerns.
There can be only one.
Edited, Oct 9th 2007 4:51pm by ArundelvalEstar
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The Raid Thread: Daggers vs Swords vs Maces vs FistsFollow
im gonna go with combat swords.
Combat Swords.
Is this a poll? I dont see where the voting box is. I am quite intrigued by this subject but im not going to go combat swords because a bunch of people voted for it. And besides ArundelvalEstar said:
I would mainly like to see some math (other two are bonus)
ArundelvalEstar wrote:
Let's see math, legitmate criticism, and concerns.
I would mainly like to see some math (other two are bonus)
Though I've yet to get into raiding on my rogue, I feel that a Combat Daggers build with a focus on the Backstab ability would do very, very well in a raid environment.
Something like this perhaps?
Let's just assume you're rolling with... say... Malchazeen or something in your main hand.
The offhand dagger wouldn't be quite as important, as long as it's fast and has fair DPS (any 70, 5-man blue should suffice) to help with the procs on poison (assuming the boss isn't immune) and Combat Potency.
Just going to assume you're AP and whatnot is raid sufficient, I don't want to do any real math...
It's be like a regular Combat swords build... you'd just be spamming Backstab instead of Sinister strike I would think.
EDIT: My first post was trash, fixed that (hopefully)
Edited, Oct 9th 2007 3:32pm by Jonofthedead
Something like this perhaps?
Let's just assume you're rolling with... say... Malchazeen or something in your main hand.
The offhand dagger wouldn't be quite as important, as long as it's fast and has fair DPS (any 70, 5-man blue should suffice) to help with the procs on poison (assuming the boss isn't immune) and Combat Potency.
Just going to assume you're AP and whatnot is raid sufficient, I don't want to do any real math...
It's be like a regular Combat swords build... you'd just be spamming Backstab instead of Sinister strike I would think.
EDIT: My first post was trash, fixed that (hopefully)
Edited, Oct 9th 2007 3:32pm by Jonofthedead
KTurner wrote:
im gonna go with combat swords.
Thank you Untouchable.
I would really like to see reasons and math. The posts that just give your opinion are useless. This thread is designed to help new people understand what works and why.
While a I'm sure you'll have wonderful reasons why you choose to go your route, if you don't post any reasons for us here you are being useless. Please don't take this as a flame, its just counterproductive to not support your response.
I wanted to make this a poll, but failed.
Those were going to be the options, but I couldn't get it to work. If someone wantes to post the proper commands for the pool, I'll add it in.
PS People can just can me Arundel, I only had to add the last part cause some ******* took it already.
I would really like to see reasons and math. The posts that just give your opinion are useless. This thread is designed to help new people understand what works and why.
While a I'm sure you'll have wonderful reasons why you choose to go your route, if you don't post any reasons for us here you are being useless. Please don't take this as a flame, its just counterproductive to not support your response.
I wanted to make this a poll, but failed.
Quote:
Possible Options:
Mutilate
Combat Maces
Combat Swords
Combat Fists
Combat Daggers
Hemo
Sub
Other
Mutilate
Combat Maces
Combat Swords
Combat Fists
Combat Daggers
Hemo
Sub
Other
Those were going to be the options, but I couldn't get it to work. If someone wantes to post the proper commands for the pool, I'll add it in.
PS People can just can me Arundel, I only had to add the last part cause some ******* took it already.
The reason we say this isn't preferance. It is proven.
I am far to lazy, however, to do the math etc for you. Just look at dps reports.
I am far to lazy, however, to do the math etc for you. Just look at dps reports.
http://rogue.raidcal.com/
Knock yourself out.
Knock yourself out.
Jophiel wrote:
I managed to be both retarded and entertaining.
Hmm, thanks Demea. I'll go over that when I get home. I'll also post results.
If this is so set in stone, then why are the other builds still so popular?
I went daggers cause of Demea's guide. I'd love to have some intelligent debate about this subject; ya know that kind of talking with evidence and without flaming.
If this is so set in stone, then why are the other builds still so popular?
I went daggers cause of Demea's guide. I'd love to have some intelligent debate about this subject; ya know that kind of talking with evidence and without flaming.
I kinda hate those posts. I mean sure, it shows you want information and that you're curous... but you want us to do the math to convince you of what we know... why don't you do it yourself? 
The spreadsheet that demea posted is pretty inclusive and pretty accurate, odds are combat sword will come on top and even if it doesn't, it really does in real raid situation.
The spreadsheet assume you're in optimal condition... that being said, that's rarely the case. Even if combat dagger has the ability to do more damage then Combat Sword, you can't backstab if there's a Cave In at Gruul's back, or if you're in Aran's ring of fire and he's facing you, etc...
Edited, Oct 9th 2007 7:08pm by Tyrandor
The spreadsheet that demea posted is pretty inclusive and pretty accurate, odds are combat sword will come on top and even if it doesn't, it really does in real raid situation.
The spreadsheet assume you're in optimal condition... that being said, that's rarely the case. Even if combat dagger has the ability to do more damage then Combat Sword, you can't backstab if there's a Cave In at Gruul's back, or if you're in Aran's ring of fire and he's facing you, etc...
Edited, Oct 9th 2007 7:08pm by Tyrandor
Because this has been talked to death.
Combat Swords will typically always do better. No positional requirements, better for fights with adds, etc.
Combat daggers isn't far behind, but when you take the above into the equation, it leans towards Swords.
Combat Swords will typically always do better. No positional requirements, better for fights with adds, etc.
Combat daggers isn't far behind, but when you take the above into the equation, it leans towards Swords.
Edit: wont work, sorry
Edited, Oct 9th 2007 6:10pm by Untoucheable
Edited, Oct 9th 2007 6:10pm by Untoucheable
I'd disagree and say Combat Daggers, but only because of the conditions imposed by the OP. The sword selection pre-SSC is incredibly poor if you don't include Arena weapons (especially in the offhand), and while getting a Slicer is trivial it wasn't mentioned in as a possibility. Because the selection is so poor, Combat Daggers (Malchazeen/Blade of the Unrequited or Searing Sunblade) should come out slightly ahead compared to the competing combo, namely Spiteblade/non-sword or King's Defender/Felsteel Longblade.
Under any set of normal conditions, Combat Swords is the winner bar none.
Under any set of normal conditions, Combat Swords is the winner bar none.
1) combat sword
2) combat fist/sword
3) combat fist
4) combat dagger
5) combat mace
6) mut/combat
7) mut sub
8) everything else
Thow 11/28/22 and 11/21/29 somewhere in there (probably around #3 or so, depending on gear) and that's basically it.
2) combat fist/sword
3) combat fist
4) combat dagger
5) combat mace
6) mut/combat
7) mut sub
8) everything else
Thow 11/28/22 and 11/21/29 somewhere in there (probably around #3 or so, depending on gear) and that's basically it.
@Warchief Tyrandor
I'm sorry to make a bothersome post, I just don't understand the math and these kind of threads are how I do learn it.
I also apologize to anyone who was inconvenienced by reading this. It appears I stirred up at least a small amount of anger here.
I'm sorry to make a bothersome post, I just don't understand the math and these kind of threads are how I do learn it.
I also apologize to anyone who was inconvenienced by reading this. It appears I stirred up at least a small amount of anger here.
Quote:
For Items:
Anything from world drops
Anything from 5 mans
Anything from world drops
Anything from 5 mans
Quote:
compared to the competing combo, namely Spiteblade/non-sword or King's Defender/Felsteel Longblade
Blinkstrike/Latro's Shifting Sword come to mind? I entered Kara like that, without ever attending a raid and beat our dagger rogues on dps that had 4-5 pieces (including weapons) from Kara. There is also Blazefury if the op would have included tradeskill weapons.
Edited, Oct 9th 2007 7:41pm by Hatebrood
You might just be a better player then the Dagger Rogue.
Zip's right tho... with the Heroic Badge Dagger and a Malch, Dagger has a huge lead in the available weapons given the limitation given above.
Zip's right tho... with the Heroic Badge Dagger and a Malch, Dagger has a huge lead in the available weapons given the limitation given above.
Well as a dagger rogue try and get position on a pull of 5 trash mobs that die in like 5-6 seconds. I know the op wants in "optimal situations" where actually if its were a tree with a billion health and didnt move or attack who would dish it out more but honestly it wont ever happen.
I say swords as well.
RPZip wrote:
I'd disagree and say Combat Daggers, but only because of the conditions imposed by the OP. The sword selection pre-SSC is incredibly poor if you don't include Arena weapons (especially in the offhand), and while getting a Slicer is trivial it wasn't mentioned in as a possibility. Because the selection is so poor, Combat Daggers (Malchazeen/Blade of the Unrequited or Searing Sunblade) should come out slightly ahead compared to the competing combo, namely Spiteblade/non-sword or King's Defender/Felsteel Longblade.
Under any set of normal conditions, Combat Swords is the winner bar none.
Under any set of normal conditions, Combat Swords is the winner bar none.
Combat swords (using my gear with just a weapon swap) still comes out higher on the spreadsheets than combat daggers if you compare spiteblade/latro's to malch/sunblade. Dagger itemization is better... but the spiteblade is still a great weapon main hand, and latro's is an excellent offhand weapon (even if it isn't epic).
Honestly I think if this is a raid thread the tradeskill weapons should be included as well. Anyone that is serious about raiding should be willing to invest their time/gold to bring the best they can to the table if they need to.
ArundelvalEstar wrote:
It appears I stirred up at least a small amount of anger here.
Don't worry, that isn't very difficult. We're a surly bunch here.
Quote:
The spreadsheet assume you're in optimal condition...
That's the key. You won't always be able to get behind your targets to backstab, but given an infinite amount of time fighting a boss with an infinite amount of health and no risk of drawing agro, Daggers would probably win by a fairly small margin.
In the actual scheme of things, swords is just more adaptable.
Jophiel wrote:
I managed to be both retarded and entertaining.
Combat Boots!
What? What are you looking at? Is it my /skin?
What? What are you looking at? Is it my /skin?
wait you wanted to make it a poll (which i saw when i replied to the broken poll tags) and gave you a poll like answer, and you whine about it?
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