I had an interesting discussion with a Shadow Priest in the game. To summarize, he said that Warlocks are masters of over-time damaging and I related that I agreed on that. However, I was telling him that my goal come end game would be to stay with Destruction. He told me that Warlocks have a somewhat "set" role, which is not to nuke or at least beat a Mage in nuking, as he told me to play the Mage class if spell DPSing is my objective. I simply told him that reading forums, I wanted to prove as did other Destruction Warlocks that have spoken, that we can beat Fire Mages in DPS given equal gear and the right playstyle.
It was at this point that he told me in the game that I was a "noob" and quit playing because I don't know my roll. I should be Affliction and Destruction Warlocks can never "outnuke" Mages and should stick to over-time damage that an Affliction build offers.
Any thoughts on this? If he is right, then suffice it to say that I am indeed a noob. I am new, currently at 37. I plan on raiding in the future as a 0/21/40 Destruction Warlock like Buzzkill. I enjoy the playstyle of Destruction Warlocks even if there is a bit more downtime compared to Affliction or Demonology Warlocks. Recently changed specialty to Destruction after Drain Hunting for a while. Have a 70 Hunter and 70 Rogue. I was tired of Drain Hunting's playstyle as it is somewhat similar to levelling a Hunter as a Beast Master.
Edited, Oct 7th 2007 12:39am by PygmalionUnbound
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Thoughts on Destruction WarlocksFollow
Few things.
First, never listen to someone with a different class who hasn't played a class that they are discussing. Perhaps this SPriest has only come into contact witht these sorts of Warlocks.
Second, and this is said all OVER the place, ESPECIALLY on Warlock threads, play what you like. If you play what you like you will feel more comfortable exploring it and gaining the most from it.
That beind said. While the Short Duration DPS a Destro Lock can put out is close to a Fire Mage, long term it doesn't compare. Furthermore, DPM (Damage per mana which in long fights is more important than DPS) of Destro Warlocks (and Affliction for that matter) is FAR FAR WORSE than Fire Mages, or Arcane Mages (which is sort of the poor-DPM tree for Mages.)
Now THAT being said. Warlocks, frankly put, ARE NOT MAGES. Mages have Evocation. That's about it in terms of mana regeneration... Once in combat they can't even drink their own Water, and they damn sure don't have many of the techniques Warlocks have for keeping the mana flowing. Warlocks are ridiculous in comparison to a Mage in this realm.
THAT THAT being said (lol), Many of the techniques for mana replenishment are not efficient for a Destro lock in immersed combat, however in a controlled (raid/5r) situation these techniques can be easily pulled off.
What that says is that for PVE Destro is a somewhat viable tree to venture down (your main concerns here are honestly with agro.) For PVP though, the fact that Short-burst DPS equals out to Mages is definatly a BIG deal.
I basically describe the Destro Lock as a caster-killer, and that is because all their techs lead into a quick and painful path down bad-memories-lane for other purecasters (Other Locks, Mages and Priests.) All of your techs (and I do mean *all*) revolve around a sound and complete distruction of these classes.
For PVP a destro lock is invaluable because of his/her ability to bring down the other important players (the top DPSers and the top Healers) through damage and through disruption.
I say, if you like Destro that you should not only follow someone elses path down this line, but figure out your own role and take your tree to the next level.
In the end you will find that Destro is effectively a less efficient DPSr than Fire/Cane Mages, and in long-term battles somewhat less DPS (although Imp Shadow Bolt *totally useless in PVP* can help drastically up SB spam DPS), the Destro warlock is - like all warlocks - a survivor and a NASTY foe on the battlefield.
You must go in with open eyes and an open mind. Remember that like all warlocks simply because you are destro you are NOT confined to destro-only abilities and spells and it is quite possible to unleash hell on your opponents if you can find the right build/playstyle matchup.
Edited, Oct 7th 2007 2:37am by tzsjynx
First, never listen to someone with a different class who hasn't played a class that they are discussing. Perhaps this SPriest has only come into contact witht these sorts of Warlocks.
Second, and this is said all OVER the place, ESPECIALLY on Warlock threads, play what you like. If you play what you like you will feel more comfortable exploring it and gaining the most from it.
That beind said. While the Short Duration DPS a Destro Lock can put out is close to a Fire Mage, long term it doesn't compare. Furthermore, DPM (Damage per mana which in long fights is more important than DPS) of Destro Warlocks (and Affliction for that matter) is FAR FAR WORSE than Fire Mages, or Arcane Mages (which is sort of the poor-DPM tree for Mages.)
Now THAT being said. Warlocks, frankly put, ARE NOT MAGES. Mages have Evocation. That's about it in terms of mana regeneration... Once in combat they can't even drink their own Water, and they damn sure don't have many of the techniques Warlocks have for keeping the mana flowing. Warlocks are ridiculous in comparison to a Mage in this realm.
THAT THAT being said (lol), Many of the techniques for mana replenishment are not efficient for a Destro lock in immersed combat, however in a controlled (raid/5r) situation these techniques can be easily pulled off.
What that says is that for PVE Destro is a somewhat viable tree to venture down (your main concerns here are honestly with agro.) For PVP though, the fact that Short-burst DPS equals out to Mages is definatly a BIG deal.
I basically describe the Destro Lock as a caster-killer, and that is because all their techs lead into a quick and painful path down bad-memories-lane for other purecasters (Other Locks, Mages and Priests.) All of your techs (and I do mean *all*) revolve around a sound and complete distruction of these classes.
For PVP a destro lock is invaluable because of his/her ability to bring down the other important players (the top DPSers and the top Healers) through damage and through disruption.
I say, if you like Destro that you should not only follow someone elses path down this line, but figure out your own role and take your tree to the next level.
In the end you will find that Destro is effectively a less efficient DPSr than Fire/Cane Mages, and in long-term battles somewhat less DPS (although Imp Shadow Bolt *totally useless in PVP* can help drastically up SB spam DPS), the Destro warlock is - like all warlocks - a survivor and a NASTY foe on the battlefield.
You must go in with open eyes and an open mind. Remember that like all warlocks simply because you are destro you are NOT confined to destro-only abilities and spells and it is quite possible to unleash hell on your opponents if you can find the right build/playstyle matchup.
Edited, Oct 7th 2007 2:37am by tzsjynx
a warlock does alot better dps than a mage, evocation has a cd of 10 minutes? or was it five? we can always lifet tap or use dark pact deep in the affliction tree.
Destro lockds are one of the heaviest dps class in game.
0/21/40 is really really nice for 5mans and raids, maybe even as a dd for little grps to do some questing, if you´d rather be farming for your epic better stick with affli or demo.
Destro lockds are one of the heaviest dps class in game.
0/21/40 is really really nice for 5mans and raids, maybe even as a dd for little grps to do some questing, if you´d rather be farming for your epic better stick with affli or demo.
0/21/40 warlocks (shadow destruction) and fire mages put out about the same dps and damage if equally geared, but in long term fights the warlock WILL outlast the mage (lifetap is the greatest spell in the game for sustaining dps). the idea that destruction locks are only 'short term burst dps' is a complete mythology. if you check all the main warlock forums (here, official forums, elitist jerks etc...) you'll find that shadow destruction has been proven countless times to be the best dps spec a warlock can be ONCE they get the gear for it as it requires a very set minimal stats.
but again, as said, play what you enjoy. for me, the only raid spec i enjoy is destruction and until i get 2 piece of T5 i can't properly test a felnub spec
but again, as said, play what you enjoy. for me, the only raid spec i enjoy is destruction and until i get 2 piece of T5 i can't properly test a felnub spec
So says 2 Destro Locks who don't seem to have any Mages.
but I've raided with plenty of mages of equal gear. one thing I will admit though is that for a destruction warlock to do equal damage, a shadow priest is required in the raid. I've never raided as fire dest but I'd presume that I can match a mages dps as a fire lock if there's a fire mage in the raid.
tzs, it's not like it was pre-tbc. warlock talents have been buffed so much dps ways that we can now actually match the other 'true dps classes' in raids (rogues, hunters and mages)
tzs, it's not like it was pre-tbc. warlock talents have been buffed so much dps ways that we can now actually match the other 'true dps classes' in raids (rogues, hunters and mages)
Yeah.. I'm actually surprised that you don't call us a "true dps class" in our own right.
Fire mages? If there's a shadow priest in the raid to throw up Shadow Weaving/Misery, the only person in my guild that can catch me is the rogue lead with an enh shammy and a warrior in his group. Even then, he doesn't always.
The two fire mages and the arcane mage in my guild don't even come close to me, though they're in equal or slightly better gear. I'm usually not even in the shadow priest's group, heh. Destruction warlocks in T5 equivalent gear are absolutely nothing to sneeze at. I'm not at that point in my gear yet, but I'm close =D
Just to put it in perspective.. with my Crusade card fully charged I buff up around 1400 shadow damage (1114 totally unbuffed).
Average hit: 3k
Average crit: 6k
ISB hit: 3600
ISB crit: 7200 (highest I've ever had was 7520)
Not too shabby for a 2.5 second cast ;)
Edited, Oct 7th 2007 9:18am by Banatu
Edited, Oct 7th 2007 9:20am by Banatu
Fire mages? If there's a shadow priest in the raid to throw up Shadow Weaving/Misery, the only person in my guild that can catch me is the rogue lead with an enh shammy and a warrior in his group. Even then, he doesn't always.
The two fire mages and the arcane mage in my guild don't even come close to me, though they're in equal or slightly better gear. I'm usually not even in the shadow priest's group, heh. Destruction warlocks in T5 equivalent gear are absolutely nothing to sneeze at. I'm not at that point in my gear yet, but I'm close =D
Just to put it in perspective.. with my Crusade card fully charged I buff up around 1400 shadow damage (1114 totally unbuffed).
Average hit: 3k
Average crit: 6k
ISB hit: 3600
ISB crit: 7200 (highest I've ever had was 7520)
Not too shabby for a 2.5 second cast ;)
Edited, Oct 7th 2007 9:18am by Banatu
Edited, Oct 7th 2007 9:20am by Banatu
the reason i don't call us a 'true dps class' is because our dps is dependant on having a firemage/Spriest/both in the raid for their debuffs. without them our dps gets pretty heavily nerfed in comparison to theirs. (though i wouldn't call Spriests a true dps class due to their lack of an aggro dump, same with warriors, shamans, druids and pallies)
Wait, are you guys INCLUDING an Imp in the equation for DPS? Yes, it's fragile, and many would prefer you Phase Shifted and just was a Blood Pact buff *****.
Don't listen to these r-tards! Am I not mistaken that you can resummon an Imp at 6 seconds? With the ability to resummon every 15 minutes at 0.5? You can even use a Meta gem proc to get a 3-second Imp summon.
Adding the Imp's DPS in the mix, Warlock DPS FTW.
Don't listen to these r-tards! Am I not mistaken that you can resummon an Imp at 6 seconds? With the ability to resummon every 15 minutes at 0.5? You can even use a Meta gem proc to get a 3-second Imp summon.
Adding the Imp's DPS in the mix, Warlock DPS FTW.
Two words. Demonic Sacrifice.
check my spec. i am DS. but we still have issues keeping up with 'true' dps classes if we don't have the bonus damage from Spriest / firemages. heck I outgear most the casters in my guild when you look at +hit and +damage (i'm at the hit cap, 202) but I still can only just keep up with the rogues and fire mages if there isn't a Spriest in the raid. if there is one I'm miles ahead though.
also ignus. you can't include imp in the dps. it'll be dead in 1 boss aoe and all bosses have aoe's.
also ignus. you can't include imp in the dps. it'll be dead in 1 boss aoe and all bosses have aoe's.
Haha I seriously doubt anyone fully read my entire first post before responding.
Paragraphs 2 through 8 were pertaining primarily to PVP.
Paragraph 9 never said Destro made "ineffective" DPS, I said "inefficeint" and IT IS! You're looking at litterally 2 times a DPM cost from a Fire mage, and still much higher than an Arcane.
Yes Destro has +crit abilities, I like many consider it to be a crit-based build -- but so does Fire and Ice -- in fact so does Arcane although it is not centered around crits. Fire Mage with Combustion, Molten Armor, and a decent spec will surpass your Crit% RIDICULOUSLY ontop of the fact that his crits are doing much more DPM. Why does that matter? In PVP especially between 2 casters these battles arn't going to last all that long. But anyone whos played destro knows the many saving graces against purecasters that Destro locks get.
If you are in certain situations outDPSing Mages than all the power to you. But are you looking at all the variables to justify a level/average-DPS output.
Much has changed since TBC. NOT just for Warlocks and honestly ESPECIALLY not for Destro warlocks. More has changed for Mages (in a DPS way) just as more has changed for Warlocks in a utility and disruption way.
Your abilities do not match up with a Mage. As I said Mages ONLY *ONLY* have evocation, not saying this is good by ANY means - this is, compaired to Warlocks - a pathetic show actually.
Warlocks have their place and yes - I know Warlocks can do damage in Raids (yes I said it in there the first time.) Read the whole thing next time~
Also it'd be cool if random people would stop arguing with me by introducing non-sensical or impossible ideas like using Dark Pact with a deep Destro build... you're not helping.
Paragraphs 2 through 8 were pertaining primarily to PVP.
Paragraph 9 never said Destro made "ineffective" DPS, I said "inefficeint" and IT IS! You're looking at litterally 2 times a DPM cost from a Fire mage, and still much higher than an Arcane.
Yes Destro has +crit abilities, I like many consider it to be a crit-based build -- but so does Fire and Ice -- in fact so does Arcane although it is not centered around crits. Fire Mage with Combustion, Molten Armor, and a decent spec will surpass your Crit% RIDICULOUSLY ontop of the fact that his crits are doing much more DPM. Why does that matter? In PVP especially between 2 casters these battles arn't going to last all that long. But anyone whos played destro knows the many saving graces against purecasters that Destro locks get.
If you are in certain situations outDPSing Mages than all the power to you. But are you looking at all the variables to justify a level/average-DPS output.
Much has changed since TBC. NOT just for Warlocks and honestly ESPECIALLY not for Destro warlocks. More has changed for Mages (in a DPS way) just as more has changed for Warlocks in a utility and disruption way.
Your abilities do not match up with a Mage. As I said Mages ONLY *ONLY* have evocation, not saying this is good by ANY means - this is, compaired to Warlocks - a pathetic show actually.
Warlocks have their place and yes - I know Warlocks can do damage in Raids (yes I said it in there the first time.) Read the whole thing next time~
Also it'd be cool if random people would stop arguing with me by introducing non-sensical or impossible ideas like using Dark Pact with a deep Destro build... you're not helping.
a decent destruction warlock will have enough mana so that he doesn't have to lifetap during the times when they could be dpsing instead, so not affecting their ability to dps. fully raid buffed I hit 14.2k hp and nearing 11.7k mana as well as having 202 +hit. basically it doesn't matter if my spells cost 150-200 more mana than a mage's. the mana cost isn't an issue due to lifetap, and if i have a shadow priest in my party (which i didn't in that raid then) my mana would be even less of an issue. heck in that raid i managed to just about keep up with the mages even though they were fire and i'm shadow dest without a Spriest in the raid (not talking about al'ar. i completely raped the mages as they were all forced to respec frost, but on solarian and voidreaver we came out about equal (they went and respect'd back fire).
mages, warlocks, hunters and rogues all deal about equal dps if equally geared. just because our spells cost more mana and we're less efficient doesn't mean we're worse. also your comment about their crits being so much more damaging than ours? remember that we have improved shadowbolt and increased critical strike damage from ruin while fire mages (the tried and test 10/48/3 or whatever it is) don't. when they crit they get 40% of the damage done as a dot. we get 50% extra damage on our crits. heck that's already pushing in our favour, then there's the 20% damage bonus thereafter from the crit which also affects our dots. the only thing in the end that keeps us even is their firebolts have a highier damage range and +damage coeffiecent. plus more talents to increase damage and an 'execute' talent for when the target is below 20%.
mages, warlocks, hunters and rogues all deal about equal dps if equally geared. just because our spells cost more mana and we're less efficient doesn't mean we're worse. also your comment about their crits being so much more damaging than ours? remember that we have improved shadowbolt and increased critical strike damage from ruin while fire mages (the tried and test 10/48/3 or whatever it is) don't. when they crit they get 40% of the damage done as a dot. we get 50% extra damage on our crits. heck that's already pushing in our favour, then there's the 20% damage bonus thereafter from the crit which also affects our dots. the only thing in the end that keeps us even is their firebolts have a highier damage range and +damage coeffiecent. plus more talents to increase damage and an 'execute' talent for when the target is below 20%.
found this simulation site about dps from different specs of warlock, mage, priest, druid and shaman.
http://wiki.shadowpriest.com/index.php?title=SimulationCraft/DPS_Ranking
0/21/40 comes out top when tested 10,000 times each. so yeah. fairly accurate ^^
http://wiki.shadowpriest.com/index.php?title=SimulationCraft/DPS_Ranking
0/21/40 comes out top when tested 10,000 times each. so yeah. fairly accurate ^^
Fight lasting Ten Minutes with Infitinte mana is a crock to begin with.... come on Jenova you know that.
In any case... theses results do not surprise me simply because a Destro lock is NOT confined to using Destro-only techs -- there are a few Fliction spells worth using as well as many "optimal buffs/debuffs" as your guide puts it.
That being said... your x2 above post is totally correct in the fact that a Destro lock can, for the most part, take on a purecaster and defeat it, and then take on another purecaster and defeat it too before needing a break for mana. This has little to do with a calculated 10 minute fight with unlimited mana... even the fire mages run out of mana... you really want to take this into account?
BTW I'm sort of confused because with truely unlimited mana Arcane blast would definatly outdps any*THING* in the game... the fact is that as the blast gains effect it loses its DPM benefits and becomes very mana-hog... even AB Mages will admit to that.
Also, even with unlimited mana the Crit%s are very low compared to Fire and Arcane Mages.
All I was trying to say in the first place is that the efficiency of a Destro Lock in PVP WILL come into play, and that since lower HP targets that shoot fire/shadow are the main objective, the best bet is versus pure casters such as fire mages and shadow priests.
DPM means little, since *all* warlocks have abilities too keep mana up, but how much time is spent doing this balancing act, and how much time of other important classes (priests, for example) being used/wasted are we talking about here.
In certain situations Destro Fire is great, and in many situations is Destro Shadow... but your continued points here Jenova are, while valid, incomplete in a broad sense. I know you know it, as does anyone viewing this board with an extensive knowledge of the class.
Who cares?
Everyone knows a Destro Lock will kill a Fire Mage with 90%HP 80%MP... The best Fire mage will admit to that... everyone has their strenghts and weaknesses.. the end =)
Edited, Oct 8th 2007 2:03am by tzsjynx
In any case... theses results do not surprise me simply because a Destro lock is NOT confined to using Destro-only techs -- there are a few Fliction spells worth using as well as many "optimal buffs/debuffs" as your guide puts it.
That being said... your x2 above post is totally correct in the fact that a Destro lock can, for the most part, take on a purecaster and defeat it, and then take on another purecaster and defeat it too before needing a break for mana. This has little to do with a calculated 10 minute fight with unlimited mana... even the fire mages run out of mana... you really want to take this into account?
BTW I'm sort of confused because with truely unlimited mana Arcane blast would definatly outdps any*THING* in the game... the fact is that as the blast gains effect it loses its DPM benefits and becomes very mana-hog... even AB Mages will admit to that.
Also, even with unlimited mana the Crit%s are very low compared to Fire and Arcane Mages.
All I was trying to say in the first place is that the efficiency of a Destro Lock in PVP WILL come into play, and that since lower HP targets that shoot fire/shadow are the main objective, the best bet is versus pure casters such as fire mages and shadow priests.
DPM means little, since *all* warlocks have abilities too keep mana up, but how much time is spent doing this balancing act, and how much time of other important classes (priests, for example) being used/wasted are we talking about here.
In certain situations Destro Fire is great, and in many situations is Destro Shadow... but your continued points here Jenova are, while valid, incomplete in a broad sense. I know you know it, as does anyone viewing this board with an extensive knowledge of the class.
Who cares?
Everyone knows a Destro Lock will kill a Fire Mage with 90%HP 80%MP... The best Fire mage will admit to that... everyone has their strenghts and weaknesses.. the end =)
Edited, Oct 8th 2007 2:03am by tzsjynx
tz, they are just simulations, but remember, across the whole duration of a boss fight us warlocks won't have to wand once. mages on the otherhand will run out of mana eventually.
also no warlock confines themself to purely afliction or demo spells, but how does that make a difference? it's what us warlocks do. we have a complex spell rotation.
about arcane mages, their spell rotation is arcane blast whenever the debuff is worn off and missiles otherwise. yes they used an 'infinite' mana simulation just to make the equations a bit easier,but the spell rotations have to be realistic, otherwise you could just say the warlock could go searing pain spec and spam it to high hell, which tbh with a high enough crit could do sick damage. also we all know that when it comes to mana and long-term fights, warlocks are the kings due to lifetap.
again, you talk about destruction efficiceny playing a part in their dps... well tbh you've seen to many destruction warlocks equiped in frozen shadow weave or other crappy crafted epics. destruction warlocks NEED stamina and primarily int and with roughly 8-9k+ of each, a destruction warlock NEVER needs to lifetap during the moments when they can dps on a boss and as I showed. i can hit 14k hp and 12k mana in my gear and i've seen plenty of better equiped destruction warlocks than me
ummm... destro will kill a fire mage? you're going onto pvp now? your comments are completely over the board. try sticking to the same topic as the rest of us
also no warlock confines themself to purely afliction or demo spells, but how does that make a difference? it's what us warlocks do. we have a complex spell rotation.
about arcane mages, their spell rotation is arcane blast whenever the debuff is worn off and missiles otherwise. yes they used an 'infinite' mana simulation just to make the equations a bit easier,but the spell rotations have to be realistic, otherwise you could just say the warlock could go searing pain spec and spam it to high hell, which tbh with a high enough crit could do sick damage. also we all know that when it comes to mana and long-term fights, warlocks are the kings due to lifetap.
again, you talk about destruction efficiceny playing a part in their dps... well tbh you've seen to many destruction warlocks equiped in frozen shadow weave or other crappy crafted epics. destruction warlocks NEED stamina and primarily int and with roughly 8-9k+ of each, a destruction warlock NEVER needs to lifetap during the moments when they can dps on a boss and as I showed. i can hit 14k hp and 12k mana in my gear and i've seen plenty of better equiped destruction warlocks than me
ummm... destro will kill a fire mage? you're going onto pvp now? your comments are completely over the board. try sticking to the same topic as the rest of us
what the **** is going on here
Jenovaomega wrote:
ummm... destro will kill a fire mage? you're going onto pvp now? your comments are completely over the board. try sticking to the same topic as the rest of us
Mages get their *** handed to them by any spec of Warlocks. A fire Mage against a Destro Lock is possibly the most stupid fight a fire Mage will be in.
Destro means using Curse of Tongues, possibly using Devour Magic/Counterspell with Felhunter out, Fear, Corruption, Life Drain any health lost... Shadowbolt/Immolate/Shadowfury/Fear/Incinerate/Shadowburn/Conflagrate.
The Mage won't get a freakin' spell off, beside Ice Block, but we're talking about a Fire Mage, right? Which Nether Protection makes them suck even more against them.
OFC, Mage trinkets first Fear... Curse of Tongues / Counterspell / Corruption / Fear / Life Drain or Mana Drain to full, Bolt, Immolate, Shadowfury... Fear, Incinerate, Shadowburn, Conflagrate.
AND THAT'S WITHOUT A DEATH COIL! (And by this time, Counterspell will be back up, and soon you can Shadowfury again, and then Fear DR's up... Curse of Tongues will make him trying to Poly to interrupt the cycle impossible... if he Counterspells you, remove it with a Spellstone or Devour Magic. Frost Nova is of no consequence, as this is a hypothetical Fire Mage.)
If a Fire Mage beats a Destro Warlock, it is without a doubt the Warlock's lack of skill. Mages lack the abilities to counter Warlocks. Frost gets the elemental we can just banish... Arcane gets a slow we can just dispel? Mages are a joke to anything but Warriors, with the occasional Paladin.
Mages in duos... in Arena setting, with only one Warlock, may be a different story. However, in mano-e-mano, Warlock reigns supreme over Mages.
Quote:
Fight lasting Ten Minutes with Infitinte mana is a crock to begin with.... come on Jenova you know that.
Yes, however it favors mages, and even in mage-favorable circumstances, locks win out. From what I remember, destro locks spend about 1 in every 10 GCD's using Life Tap, meanwhile the mage is completely oom in under 5 minutes with full pots, mana gems, and evocation.
Quote:
even the fire mages run out of mana
The only two things less mana-efficient than a fire mage are a destro lock and pure AB spam. Saying "even fire mages go oom" isn't saying much.
As stated, the AB spam sequence is AB/AB/AM/Fireblast (which isn't ideal anywho, but in unlimited mana, offers higher damage compared to Scorch), with MSFD procs on AM.
On a side note, the page hasn't been updated since 2.2, and pure AM spam is currently the highest overall DPS for a mage.
The crit rate for the destro lock isn't that low either. 22.4% from gear, 8% from talents, ~4% (I think?) from base. Maybe it's just me, but I don't see many locks running around with 34.4% crit, hit cap, and +950dmg.
Quote:
you're going onto pvp now? your comments are completely over the board.
Quote:
Warning - Attempting to patch together any coherent message from my posts may result in chronic headaches and/or intense vomitting.
lsfreak wrote:
The only two things less mana-efficient than a fire mage are a destro lock and pure AB spam. Saying "even fire mages go oom" isn't saying much.
lol that's not true.
SPriest (dont even START with Holy), AB AB Missile Mage, Ele Shammy, and Balance Druid are all less efficient DPM-wise, as is an Ice Mage if you don't count Shatters.
If you look at Deep fire spec with any sort of good Talent Build you're looking at alot more extra DPS than just crits that don't cost anymore than the original mana cost. The problem with Fire is most definatly survivablity - they are the definition of a Glass Cannon.
And while fire dps is somewhat situational, claiming that it isn't mana efficient is sort of silly. It's the one thing the entire rest of the game is put up against when figuring out DPS and mana efficiency. And this is coming from an Arcane enthusiast, btw.
AM Spam with deep Arcane IS great damage, but what does that have to do with efficiency? The manapool bonuses that the Arcane Tree adds do not stack up against the lack of extra damage Arcane spells produce for their cost. The REAL benefit of a Cane Mage is that his AMs break through on almost everything without a problem, cause MUCH less threat than Fire/Ice/Destro, and that in any nasty situations the Mage is free to use all 3 trees - all with boosted effects - to truely bring a balanced Mage's powers out, giving him the best effectiveness against the widest range of opponents.
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